Age 54 Potential Changes Rev II

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Orcs and undead are meant to have the best armies though.

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I agree, but not necesarily by 2 points. And on top of that, both undead and orc has a 9 point elite, which is stronger than a 7/7 army, because the multipliers have a bigger effect.

Orc/warrior in war: 1.15*1.15 (TGs) *1.076 (wages) = 12.8 point offensive elite. And then generals on top of that, but I'm not sure how they're calced so wont use them.

With fanaticism: 1.15*1.15*1.076*1.05 = 13.45

Def spec: 5*1.076 = 5.38
+ fana: 5*1.073*0.97 = 5.22

Total = 18.187
Total + fana = 18.67

Dwarf/warrior: 1.15*1.15*1.076*7 = 9.961 points.
+ Fana: 1.15*1.15*1.076*1.05*7 = 10.46 points.

Def spec: 5*1.076 = 5.38

Total = 15.341
Total + fana = 15.68
So the difference is 3 points now with fana on.

Wont do calcs for a 7/7 army , as it doesn't exist atm and I'm tired. But I do believe 9/5 is better than 7/7 because you can concentrate your modifiers on either offence or defence, where a 7/7 army would have to split them out to get the same effect.

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Originally Posted by dusk

Bishop

Fix MV make it only buff enemy spells when cast on kd mate. It's a double penalty not only does you kd spend mana and runes to get rid of enemy spells but it kills your spells as well.
Give rouge an operation to get rid of riots on friendlies.
Fix ambush, right now you can ambush other people's hits and ambush an ambush ??????

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So you want my mages to spend a lot of effort to keep the enemy 24/7 covered with Greed and MS while you can get rid of them by having a kingdom mate cast MV on you? With this suggestion, mages would just stick with FB and tornadoes as they can't be MV'd. If the enemy has the coordination to keep you covered 24/7 then they earned your suffering.

There's nothing wrong with ambush. You can ambush any land hit except those that use Anon or WS. You can use anon on ambush if you don't want your ambush ambushed.

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Originally Posted by Palem

Elves can cast on Faery. Halfling can thieve faery. Orc/Undead can break Faery.


Can't get touched?

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You can do ops on faeries yes, but problem is that you need a huge difference in tpa or wpa (depending on the op) to get a decent success rate. I played halfer/rogue this age with 6 raw tpa and some decent mods, and couldn't get through on faeries on more than 1 in 5 ops, and often less than that.

But, I'm not saying faery should get completly ****ed, just lowered a bit. Like +20% stronger ops and +20% stronger wpa and tpa, which still is very strong IMO.

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Originally Posted by dusk

Bishop

Fix MV make it only buff enemy spells when cast on kd mate. It's a double penalty not only does you kd spend mana and runes to get rid of enemy spells but it kills your spells as well.
Give rouge an operation to get rid of riots on friendlies.
Fix ambush, right now you can ambush other people's hits and ambush an ambush ??????

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I do like the idea of being able to get rid of riots somehow, always found it stupid that it couldn't be removed. Perhaps a spell with 15% chance to remove or something ? or some op friendly provs could do on you? Would add some tactical options.

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Originally Posted by Darksel

You can do ops on faeries yes, but problem is that you need a huge difference in tpa or wpa (depending on the op) to get a decent success rate. I played halfer/rogue this age with 6 raw tpa and some decent mods, and couldn't get through on faeries on more than 1 in 5 ops, and often less than that.

But, I'm not saying faery should get completly ****ed, just lowered a bit. Like +20% stronger ops and +20% stronger wpa and tpa, which still is very strong IMO.

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If you reduce both +30% damage on spells and ops along with +30% WPA and TPA to what you suggest then Faeries become useless unless you remove their -10% Population penalty. Remember that Faeries still have the -10% population which is huge especially earlier on when they don't have a huge amount of honor or sciences pumped. Best thing would be adjust the bonuses for their race to either +25% damage on spells and ops along with +35% WPA and TPA or +20% damage on spells and ops along with +40% WPA and TPA. Then shift the honor bonus to where they get a small penalty on the honor bonus after Viscount honor rank regarding WPA/TPA bonus. Maybe even do this for the population bonus in honor section aswell.

For example a Faery's honor is Current honor rank*0.95 = new Faery honor bonus.

Count = 1.15 * 0.95 = 1.09
Marquis = 1.21 * 0.95 = 1.15
Duke = 1.27 * 0.95 = 1.21
Prince = 1.33 * 0.95 = 1.26

This would give them the nerf needed at the higher end without killing them at the lower end.

I think orcs and undeads are mainly OP by their spellbooks. I agree with those proposing that orcs lose RM or suffer some other slight nerf to compensate, as RM is a very powerful spell for an attacking race to have. Undeads should also lose GP, TW, or both.

Orcs' ability to train 9/2 elites with all the automatic spec credits now generated by war wins is awfully high-powered, especially when combined with the tactician's increase in credits from +30% to +50% this age. An orc tactician in a kingdom that's winning a lot of its wars is really a bit over the top. They definitely need a nerf of some sort, although a very modest one is probably about right.

Avians and humans, on the other hand, need a slight buff. Maybe give humans a 6/0 offensive specialist and avians a 0/6 defensive specialist or at least reduce the avian's elite cost?

Races and power based off the current changes:

Avian - Weak speed attacker (mainly space allocation issue) with thievery damage. Maybe make the elite 8/3 and it could work.
Dwarf - Decent for mage work and attacking but might run into a similar issue as Avians. Make elite 8/3 and could work.
Elves - Powerhouse mages and seems that is what they are now. Don't seem to be attackers except the sneaky land grabs here and there. Only a defense oriented on thievery or swap runes around.
Faery - Weak T/Ms but I guess a slight nerf that reduces their effectiveness but should be +20~25 damage on spells/op along with +35~40% WPA and TPA or drop to -5% population penalty. Right now very weak on space allocation especially early on.
Halfling - Powerhouse thieves and seems that is what they are now. Don't seem to be attackers except the sneaky land grabs here and there.
Human - Difficult race to play but seems to be the jack of all trades while not excelling at any. Seems more for experienced players. A buff of 6/5 elites will be good here.
Orcs - Powerful attackers and should only have espionage thievery (maybe give 100% Accurate intel here) along with self spells and MV cause they aren't thieves or mages. Loss of Reflect Magic aswell and will be good.
Undead - Powerful attackers and should only have espionage thievery (maybe give 100% Accurate intel here) along with self spells and MV cause they aren't thieves or mages. Maybe reduce the science penalty to -15% or -10% to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Darksel

I do like the idea of being able to get rid of riots somehow, always found it stupid that it couldn't be removed. Perhaps a spell with 15% chance to remove or something ? or some op friendly provs could do on you? Would add some tactical options.

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Why not have a way to get rid of riots? You have a way to get rid of plague. Maybe relate it to % of TD's you have. Just like hospitals give you a chance to clear plague. *shrugs* just throwing that out there.

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Originally Posted by Natsu

If you reduce both +30% damage on spells and ops along with +30% WPA and TPA to what you suggest then Faeries become useless unless you remove their -10% Population penalty. Remember that Faeries still have the -10% population which is huge especially earlier on when they don't have a huge amount of honor or sciences pumped. Best thing would be adjust the bonuses for their race to either +25% damage on spells and ops along with +35% WPA and TPA or +20% damage on spells and ops along with +40% WPA and TPA. Then shift the honor bonus to where they get a small penalty on the honor bonus after Viscount honor rank regarding WPA/TPA bonus. Maybe even do this for the population bonus in honor section aswell.

For example a Faery's honor is Current honor rank*0.95 = new Faery honor bonus.

Count = 1.15 * 0.95 = 1.09
Marquis = 1.21 * 0.95 = 1.15
Duke = 1.27 * 0.95 = 1.21
Prince = 1.33 * 0.95 = 1.26

This would give them the nerf needed at the higher end without killing them at the lower end.

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I dont think I am. Faery has an 8 point elite, which is 33% higher than the 2nd highest def, and that's only 1 race that has that. So that plenty makes up for the less pop for a T/M.

You can also do their elite 3/7 instead and let them keep the T/M bonuses.

People seem to forget that RM is rather hard to cast and has a short duration. Orcs who want to use it a lot will have to build 15%+ guilds and 5%+ towers. In other words, Orcs will have to sacrifice building space to take advantage of RM.

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Originally Posted by Palem

Can we keep talking about how boned Faery is?

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I don't think Faery is boned at all? Fae has Clear Sight and Reflect Magic, and the benefits that having a t/m build brings, plus defense that most races will have a hard time breaking. A halfer or elf is still going to have a hard time cracking faery thief and mage defenses... it's just hard now as opposed to nearly impossible. Neither halfer or elf can defend themselves anywhere near as well as Faery can against attacks, both are vulnerable to magic or thievery respectively, and neither has all of the offensive spells a t/m would want to have. I think Faery is close to right... the only thing about Fae that needs to be balanced is boosting their elite nw to 8.

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Originally Posted by Darksel

I dont think I am. Faery has an 8 point elite, which is 33% higher than the 2nd highest def, and that's only 1 race that has that. So that plenty makes up for the less pop for a T/M.

You can also do their elite 3/7 instead and let them keep the T/M bonuses.

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Actually it's only 25% better than the next best elite because Halflings have 5/6. 6/8= 0.75. The -10% population bonus is already a very harsh penalty which people don't realize.

Faery:
1000 acres (no homes): 22500 population (Atleast 2500 less population than other races)
1500 acres (no homes): 33750 population (Atleast 3750 less population than other races)
2000 acres (no homes): 45000 population (Atleast 5000 less population than other races)
2500 acres (no homes): 56250 population (Atleast 6250 less population than other races)
3000 acres (no homes): 67500 population (Atleast 7500 less population than other races)

The gap gets larger as the provinces grow. I would gladly switch to a 2/7 or 3/7 elite for the -10 population penalty to be changed to -5% population penalty, +20% damage on spells and ops, and +35 or 40% WPA and TPA. This or make Land Lust a Faery only spell and worth 1/5th (ofcourse NW and acre difference comes into effect the same way) of what an enemy would land grab for with adjusted honor boost aswell because right now the Faery race is a bit weak compared to the rest. The reason is if a Faery doesn't have the MO ability to make attacks and are basically sitting ducks due to being weaker than Halflings by 14%, Elves by 14%, and Orcs/Undeads (If built right) can easily chain Faeries then the Faery provinces need a way to survive.

Can we get any estimate on when the final changes might be released?

Honestly, I'd be curious on how many of the folks here actually PLAY a Faery. I know Palem does. I think I saw Landro say he's played one recently.

I agree 100% that Faery/Sage was sick strong. The problem was the combination of the two. The way they sit now, they are on a precarious slope IMHO.

Their ability to retal a hit has been severely nerfed. Heck, they can't even LL in an attempt to retal unless there is relations above normal. Their bonuses have been smacked pretty hard and that -10% pop is still there.

To be honest, when I played UD last age, my favorite food was Faery and I hit them on a regular basis so I'm pretty sure I'm not buying the unbreakable stuff because it just isn't true. PLAYING a Faery this age, I was easily breakable by orcs and UD's 200-400 acres larger than me. Let me tell ya, an Orc massacring your tiny fairy wings is NOT fun. Four or five Orcs on your tail can just ruin your day. So this unbreakable stuff is well, to be polite .... bull.

Haven't seen complaints about the war hero recently...

What if the war hero would gain honor for all successfull attacks ? Would be a small compensation to have extra honor source for the chained-to-knighthood scenario.
Another idea (not just for war heroes): the defender of a bounce gets some honor. But I think this comes late as a suggestion since it needs more tought to be implemented good.

On the same note, what if Sages' successful (land) attacks generated books ? Some small amount, like 10 times the acres got (which would be 1-2 BPA). It will be like the free 0.25 BPA per tick this age sage got, but you have to be active to get it. And it's not available to faeries.