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If Avian is expected to be an A/t, they at least need their current Elite and Dspec.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz
+15% or +20%, either works to round out Dwarf.
Undead is fine as presented.
Free draft is too much and, as Zendor pointed out, too easily abused. Something inherent (not transferable) like making War Hero immune to Dragons (and removing the training time bonus) would both be appropriate and not imbalancing.
They asked for discussion on numbers only. I limited my comment to numbers.
The best change you can give avians with the current change revision is to improve their elite. IMO, 7/3 is good. It keeps them seperate from the more dedicated attackers but doesn't leave them as completely vulnerable to ambush as a 7/2.
I disagree that Undead is fine as is, but I suppose destroying their science is not the best solution.
As for free drafting - It is no more abusable then giving Humans +10% pop and Tog and FoK. A human merchant is a gold producing machine. A War hero with free drafting is still very much limited by draft rates - he can't just draft an unlimited supply of soldiers instantly. It takes time.
The view of Faeries are breakable through attackers' hits, mage and thievery, I agree on this. But I think the points that what the players actually want to deliver are actually misunderstood.
Firstly, its about the honour. Faery is the one race which has 3 field bonuses, Wpa, Tpa, and defence. Thus they can defend their honour better. Gaining honour as easily as losing them is a waste of time because the time you can enjoy from that +50% honour is almost considered as none, when you are losing your titles as fast as you can gain it.
So this is my first point. The Faeries are always better at keeping their honours thus they always enjoy a higher default bonus in Wpa and Tpa than it actually looks like.
Then lets have a view from the thievery side for an example. Faeries with WTs and CS makes strong thievery defence. I would say for an example, if it takes one or less Hafler to achieve one desired result on an average attacker, it will take 2 or more Haflers instead to achieve the same result on a Faery that they desired.
This is the same compared with mage and defence. From mage, Faeries is equipped with RM spell, while from attaker's hits you need to CQ them first before you can break them. It is a fact that even though the Orcs or Undeads may enjoy a 9/x offence elite, but that only apply when the attacker is in a fully pumped state. The offence needed to break a Feary is a lot that and it is true not many attackers in a kd are able to do that.
So this is my second point. More efforts are needed to disable a Faery cause players reluctant to launch their hits on them, and this is the largest factor what makes them "unbreakable".
Lastly is the common recognition of the Faeries. Is Faeries been commonly played by the majority every ages? No it isn't. Most players are more likely to go for attackers.
Faeries are difficult to manage because of the -10% population. That is why few players would want to play them because it is hard to make the calc. This requires a lot of maths work, and ppl who do not enjoy doing heavy maths for a game, most likely wont pick Faery as well.
However, if you do not play the race yourself, you will not be able to understand it from within. The ways of many players understand the Faery, are from the outside without playing the race itself. In another word, they understand the Faeries only when they confront with them in wars. The point is you have to play the race through the inside only you will be able to realise that, Faeries actually share quite a number of vulnerabilities and weaknesses as well.
So my third point here is, Faery is "unbreakable", because many are not familiar with the race, and thus do not recognise its weaknesses. You are reluctant to make hits on them because you do not even understand whether the hits you made, are worth the effort or not?
So imo, the conclusion of the dicussion about the Faery here is, Faery is a race, which is easy to turtle, when you war with an average kd. But for experience kds, it is nothing, because they know the way how to take a Faery down.
Why is that? One large factor is a kd's dicipline and order. As to bring down a Faery, you certainly need to put in more effort to do it, and this require team work. So if your kd has no dicipline, and your players do not follow your orders, naturally it is impossible to break down a Faery isn't it?
So that is the difference that what cause the difference views among the players here. Some thought Faery is UB, they share this view more likely because they come from average kds.
Some thought Faery is an okay race and nothing to fear about, the share this view more likely because they come from top kds.
While since the 50% Wpa of Elf and +50% Tpa from Hafler are been introduced lol, some fear Faery is too weak because they can no longer turtle in them more effectively :P
And here is finally I wish to share my view on this. Imo, Faery indeed, truely have super defence from all the areas. The effort to bring them down at first, indeed requires more attempts to do so.
However, there is one thing most players do not realise here. I will take an example on this case to make it more understable.
What is the weakness of Faery in defence? Their elites. Will Faeries choose Clerics or build Hospitals? Not likely isnt it? One Faery elite may contribute a 8 points in defence for themselves, but do you realise that, in the opposite, lossing one elite may also cause them lossing 8 points of defence as well?
The logic of Faery is such as, this is a race with a great fortified wall on the outside, but once the wall is been brought down, they extremely vulnerable from the inside.
- you losing defence faster than it is expected
- you losing honours, and the benefits from your titles
- your super high Nwpa will keep on causing you losing a higher rate of acres because your networth is too high and enough for them to squeeze a good gain out of you even you are already low in acres.
- and here is when it comes your -10% population penalty, will beat you up even more badly in this situation
So once now you understand Faeries are breakable, are you happy with it? No, certainly not. And I know this anwer will surprise and dissapoint you as well :p
Because as I mentioned, to bring down a Faery, you:
- needs more efforts
- more efforts needs more team work
- more team work needs more dicipline
- more dicipline needs?
More dicipline are usually only can be seen in top kds. But how many top kds in Utopia? You already know the answer in your heart isn't it? Imo, that's the actual reason that contributes to the "unbreakable" Faeries. And in the opposite, because of taking the advantages that a lot of players are gready, selfish, no team work and only cares for their own gain, Faeries are able to stay as "unbreakable" all this ages.
It is not the race that is unbreakable, it is the weakness of humanity, that makes it unbreakable. This is an ironic truth.
Their vulnerabilty are actually quite the same as an average attacker, it is just that the effect has been "hidden" since it needs more effort to bring them down in the "first step". When players do not even want to try the "first step", naturally they will not have the chance to see the "effect" that follows in behind.
For top kds who had brought down countless of Faeries before, it never had been a problem for them. And in the opposite, they do not understand either, why Faeries are "unbreakable", simply because they always stayed in top kds and seldom have the chance to view it from the angle of an average kd's perspective.
And imo this is where lies the difference opinions about the current Faery issue here.
We have:
Race ---|--- Combined Military Points / Proposed CMP
Avian - 12 / 12
Dwarf - 11 / 12
Elves - 12 / 12
Faery - 13 / 11
Halfling - 11 / 11
Human - 13 / 10
Orc - 14 / 14
Undead - 14 / 14
Orc and Undead will continue being the only valid heavy hitters. Humans have been erased from that category now, nerfed down to 10 points. They are the ONLY race to receive such a penalty and they weren't even significantly powered this age.
I say, give them some mercy and give them at least a 6/4, or even better, a 7/3 elite. They can't have the weakest military and still be able to compete with the rest.
I also recommend putting Avian, Dwarf, and Elf, up to 13 points a piece somehow, and see if all the heavy attacking kd's will still be littered with UD's and Orcs instead of a variety of all the races. It's getting old that the only way to guarantee your military power in the long run is to make sure you have enough attackers with 9 pt elites to even things out.
How did you get your CMP? I'm baffled right now.
He adds elite value to the dspec value for attacker races and to ospec value for races with defensive elites. These values are rather meaningless. First of all they assume a static province and secondly they assume that all races will build off and def in the same ratios.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palar
---edit---
His calc for UD is wrong because he assumes 100% elite offense. Most UD would be happy if they managed 75% elites. So UD should be about 13 (5 + 0.75*9 + 0.25*5) in his chart. (But it's still a meaningless value)
When I played Fae/Sage in age 52, Fae didn't have a thievery mod and only 3/7 elites. But I had +200% sci in both thievery and magic and I had Duke honor so 4 rtpa and 4 rwpa both translated into 30 mod wpa and tpa. The extra pop from Duke also gave me a lot of extra room to increase my def and income. Once I was certain I couldn't be broken I dropped my wages from 200% to 50% and could fund like crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElusiveWitch
The problem is that a T/M who gets chained down is down almost for the rest of the age because it's extremely hard to catch up with the rest of the kingdom. However, right now Fae is almost untouchable except if you soften them up with a bounce wave during hostile. This won't be as effective next age so that leaves us with untouchable Fae who can hoard large amounts of honor which will make them even stronger as the age progresses.
I see 2 possible solutions
- Remove the pop boost from honor
- Make the T/M mods offensive only so they'll have to be wary of incoming ops/spells
I think something needs to be done about the end of war credits gained.
First of all this is too strong for orcs, that they get a free elite pump. Second then it should not be possible to save these credits.
Example:
An orc gets hit from 2k acres to 1k acres in war, the other kingdom surrenders and the orc gets 3000 elite credits (would often get more as he usually would be below median prov), but he dont has to use these as he still had plenty of elites from when getting hit down, so these credits are saved.
1 week later the kingdom goes into war again, and the opponent kingdom has no way of seeing how many credits each prov has laying around. So after the first wave, he gains 300 acres and another 300 elite credits. Then he is aided 3300 sols and the opponent kingdom is suddenly fighting a 1300 acres fully pumped prov, instead of a 1300 slightly fat prov.
If there are 5-10 of these provs (which there often will be) then it can greatly effect the war. The two kingdoms might have been around the same size prior to the war, and their first wave was pretty similar. But now the first kingdom has grown quite some on the second.
So I suggest:
Orc gets 1/3 of the credits in war endings AND all credits gained in war, has to be used before war ending CF is over or they'll vanish. (Or you could add a spell that could destroy or steal them, but don't like that idea that much)
Darksel, Orc/Tact and Orc/Cleric tend to gain more credits than the elites they lose so having more credits then you can spend is not that uncommon for an Orc. The downside is that a chained Orc would love to train some dspecs but can't use credits for it unlike other races.
Indeed, but changing my calcs to say they have 4k spec credits saved, is even stronger, so it definitely should be changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
How can you aid 5-10 provinces with 3-4K soldiers in just half a day??
You MIGHT be able to do it once a day, but then his TB will be horrible, and chaining him down will mean his end.
Besides, why does everyone keep focusing on Orc leet credits? What about the spec credits for everyone else?
By Darksel's reasoning, first 2-3 dragons can be slayed with saved up spec credits and no change to the provinces. Only ones unable to do so, and thus vulnerable to dragons are... Orcs!!
i want dev open real number on faery activities and made comparison between those faery turtle against heavy attacker in ghetto kd i bet twice active heavy attacker only have half honor and half land.... hey only a few of us play on top tier kd and mostly we play on ghetto kd...... i play as UD this age my kd has a lot of faeries 5 from 6 of them have reached count/viscount while we attacker sit on knight/lord at best...... nerf faery more so that "conquest" is a worth attempt to bring down faery from my experience even conquest is not worth it against those faery.... so much armies lost to gain so few land which they can LL it back.... remember we attacker have so few GC to train back those lost while faery can TOG ing as they please... combined with super heavy extremely high def made them toooooo powerful..... in my experience this age most faery (if not all) bulid 18-20% fort (WTF) made all other race 18-20% TG looks like trash (except UD/orc) since we attacker must build def spec and leets at the same time (60-70-80% faery leets with 20 % forts against attcker with 30-50% leets with 20% TG) can't do the math here.... to made it more interesting faery can have 5/0 off spec but with 2/6 or 2/7 leets.... if the dev don't want to nerf faery and they should reduce honor effect to the point we attacker can break them (to make it fair bring retal power to those faery).... it is not that i hate faery that much... what i hate is people who is less active but gain more honor just by playing uber def faery.... we attacker trading blows to the point of restarting it back to only 400 acres while those faery enjoy all the honour and looks all mighty....
Top kingdoms aren't much different. Few attackers will reach count and fewer are able to hang on to it. Faeries on the other hand dominate the honor charts.Quote:
Originally Posted by bawoex
If a Fae burns all his mana on ToG during war then he isn't using it to hurt you. That's a win situation in my book.
---edit---
Looking at the honor charts, I see 7 Avians above Count, 0 Dwarves, 0 Humans, 1 Orc, 9 Halflings, 3 Undead, 21 Elves and 100+ Faeries.
So yes, mages and T/Ms clearly have the advantage when it comes to gaining honor
Ok, soldiers would be an issue, but still.Quote:
Originally Posted by tola
And yes, I think all credits gained at war end should be removed when war ending CF is over. (or 4 days after war end or whatever). They are supposed to make you ready again fast, not to be saved up for next war.
Edit: 3-4k soldiers wont mean that much on TB. Definitely not ruin it for good.
Well honestly, it doesn't matter to me a whole lot. Normally I'm some sort of attacker race and only played Fae this age for a bit of a break. I was only trying to break the stupid myth about Faeries being unbreakable. And yes, bounce waving will have repercussions this next age which FINALLY is being addressed. The continual whining about the "unbreakable" state of Faery was getting on my last nerve ;). I'm a ghetto girl and even our ghetto knows how to break a faery and take one down if we want to or if the effort is in our best interest to do so. And by the way, whoever suggested faery's can just sit there and ToG, etc etc. FYI if I had done that in my KD, I'd be looking at a razed province right now. Faery's aren't in our KD to ToG for themselves. *shudders at the thought*
Palem & Landro, you both addressed the issue spot on about the honor problem. It actually allows faery's to work more easily which I neglected to mention in my post. The problem ISN'T the faery itself, it's the combination of Faery/Sage/Honor. Sage problem has been addressed forcing Faery and the KD they are in to make an important choice. Honor is another screwed up mechanism that needs overhauled and has needed it for errrrrr a really long time. For attackers to hit 2x a day or more and not be able to keep honor is ridiculous.
Again, that's not a race issue though *shrugs*. It will be what it will be in the end. We will adapt and move on so it's all good :)