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Ok You win. FSK officially NOT a Founding Father. Absolutely correct. My wife even agrees with you. That does not however take away from my original point. Any more then the fact that you misspelled "Colonize" takes from the very valid point that you made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
I find threads such as this hilarious since even the criteria on which you supposedly judge countries is never agreed on, and to be honest, can never be agreed on. You northern Europeans(mostly Scandinavians but also Dutch, German, etc) love to criticize the US mostly for the Republican party and what you hear it represents by various media outlets which are mostly pro liberal. You Americans try to defend yourselves, in-vain since you'll forever be trolled. Fact of the matter is, neither side is right, or to put it a different way, both sides are wrong. Some of you rightly said that everything about America is 2 faced, what I fail to understand is why you're limiting it to America, as everything in life is 2 faced, period. Ever heard of the cliche that there are 2 sides on the coin? Want examples? Fine. You Europeans claim that Norway has a superior economy to the US, using per capita measures and whatnot, yet you also admit that it's all because of oil. So by your logic being geographically near oil makes you superior. Isn't that awfully arbitrary and has nothing to do with the country itself? Abu Dabi, Dubai, Qatar, etc are also small countries that have a lot of oil, and are therefore very rich. Does that make these countries' economies good? What about bigger countries with oil like Libya, Iran, Iraq, etc? What does having access to oil have anything to do with a country's economy?
The anti Americans claim that free public healthcare, education, etc is good and are in disbelief that the US doesn't have them. Americans say that they prefer to not be forced to pay huge amount of taxes in order to pay for all these free public services and instead let each individual choose how to spend his own money, and also that Americans don't believe in the public sector and instead prefer the private sector to be in charge of healthcare, education, etc. How can anyone say which option is better? They are simply different, there is no way to measure them on a scale or whatever and decide which is factually better, only which suits your own personal ideology more. Same goes for other issues like the US military, diplomacy and their general "world policing". Same can be said about any other topic you choose to argue.
All these arguments you guys presented in this thread will lead nowhere. However there are other things which I'm surprised all of you missed. No, America did not become a messed up country, it always was messed up. However that doesn't stop the rest of the world to follow it, be it in official channels like diplomacy, the UN, etc or unofficial channels like the vast usage of the English language(I know, I know, we all speak English because of the British Empire, not the US, but the British Empire is long dead and right now it mostly serves America), the vast influence Hollywood has over each and every one of us(look at the vast majority of TV shows and movies you like, most of them are products of Hollywood), popular culture in general(again, Hollywood driven), music(Rap, Hip Hop, House, Dance, etc, all American music genres), etc. Lets face it, the way we live our every day lives are vastly influenced by America, even though we never stop to think about it for even a second. Besides, the fact that we're constantly talking about America, whether it's to praise them(very uncommon, I know) or criticize them(very common, I'm aware) shows just how deeply America influences us.
What you're forgetting to consider is even though the ideas may not work or be implemented... it makes people think about possibilities and gives them a place to discuss what they think. <3
Thread is gold
Ethnocentric is the belief that your nationality is superior to any other. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnocentric?s=t <--- The first definition. I realize there are multiple definitions, I was merely referencing the first one. The proof, is that you have refused to concede that the US has even one fault thus far :) I don't really suspect you DO fall under this, but it does serve to make my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazyguy
Various surveys show that everything from 16 to 48% of the population in the USA live below the poverty limit. Christian fundamentalism is on the rise, just like Islamic fundamentalists are on the rise elsewhere. Fundamentalism is a response to poverty and desperate times, caused by desperate people and ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckySports
I am not saying all Christians and Muslims are poor, desperate or fundamentalists, but when religion takes control of your daily life and influences how you think, vote and act, trying to impose your beliefs on others, then you're pretty extreme.
As for you party system; it's not really a democracy when you only have two real candidates, and you have to be filthy rich to run, in order to be able to buy enough votes and support. No normal person can become President in the USA, only the rich and influential.
provide surveys!Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffi
For the poverty bit - read the first bit of my last message, I already answered that.. (And You can read my other posts for my opinion on "religion")Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffi
For the party system - a little US history would go a long way. We have had people become president after having been born poor (Abraham Lincoln comes to mind) You don't spend your OWN money, you do fund raisers and spend other people's money, particularly special interest groups. You don't need to be rich. It does help. Not that it matters. The US won't fix the broken party system until someone makes a big enough deal out of it.
I do not refuse to concede that there is even one fault in the US. I simply disagreed with the opinion of the post. I also did not proclaim that USA was superior to any other. You post is false! My post is not "ethnocentric", nor did I make any remarks stating that the US was superior to all others.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckySports
You can repeat the word as many times as you like, it doesn't make it true!
The first statement is just rhetoric. There is no definition of the "poverty level"/ By whose standards? In the US the "Poverty Level can be described as $55,000 or below for a 3 person family.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffi
The second statement "Christian fundamentalism" is completely false. In fact many beloved war memorials across America are being torn down because they are in the shape of a "t" (a cross). Christian Fundamentalism is not on the rise. Maybe You're watching MSNBC too much. Atheism is on the rise. These memorials are decades old and were put there in honor of our fallen soldiers. They come from a time that Christian fundamentalism was more prevalent in the US. Many, however, who are not even Christian still feel that these memorials are a part of our history and should remain.
I agree about the party system and candidates. I will go one step further with that, and point out that they are backroom buddies (the candidates) and what will happen is decided in that backroom, no matter who gets elected. You're mistaken about only the rich and influential being electable. Its only professional politicians who can get elected. Very rarely does someone get in who is not a Lawyer and professional politician! Yes they are all rich and influential, but even the richest of the rich are blocked out by the select few professional politicians that run the country.
About my the first statement, yes, the definition of poverty varies. That's why I listed 16-48%, because this includes ALL definitions, from the most conservative to the most radical estimates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazyguy
The second statement, I believe you are very mistaken. For a presidential candidate in the US today, it is worse to be called an 'ATHEIST' than 'GAY'. That says a lot really, because quite a lot of Americans are anti-gay, and the word can even be called profanity in many contexts. "You GAY f**k!" "Are you a fag?" "You fag", etc.
This is documented btw.
Also, the Republican party is completely dominated by the Christian fundamentalists, including the Tea Party. Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, Michelle Barack, etc, they were all completely crazy and Christian fundamentalists. Abortion protests are higher than in many years, and God God God is present everywhere in the public debate. And did you know that over half of Americans don't believe in the Evolution Theory? And Texas has rewritten the school curriculum, forbidding the teaching of the Evolution Theory and the Big Bang as science. They teach creationism. And there are plenty of other areas doing just that.
Desperate times ALWAYS produces religious fundamentalism. People are desperate and need something to believe in. The Arab world is a great example. Just a decade or two ago, nationalism was the big thing. Now, extreme Islam is on the rise and completely dominates. The same is true for the US, bad times calls for fundamentalism and people go crazy.
As for being President, you are right, but you HAVE TO be rich in order to become President. But yeah, you need the rest too, as you say.
I promise you Stoffi, the appearance of "The rise of Christian Fundalmentalism" is all Media hype! There is the element and even domestic terrorist groups that claim Christianity as the excuse for their violence, for instance "The Army of God" and "Westboro Baptist Church. I couldn't agree more that it is a problem, but it is a vast vast minority. It's a few hundred nutjobs getting way more attention then they deserve.I wouldn't even proclaim it to be "on the rise".
As for as extreme Islam, it is also a problem and i do see the correlation that you are drawing, I just don't think that it is really fair to compare a few hundred nutjobs, who are seen as nutjobs by the rest of us to Islamic fundamentalist. I would agree that they are qualitatively similar, but the difference is the social unacceptability of their actions. They aren't hailed as heros by the general populace!
I don't believe in the Evolution theory myself. It is a dis-proven theory. The selective survival process exists, but it actually limits genetic material and actually INHIBITS genetic change. Darwin's theory was written before the discovery of DNA. Frankly I don't know how the world all got created, and find it a bit pretentious of anyone who does! Even the Christian Bible says the "we see through a glass that is cloudy". If we see these things through a glass that is cloudy, how can we say exactly how and exactly when the world was created? Those to the far right hate that argument. Ive had it many times, I have never been beaten to death like one would be in an Islamic nation.
Creationism was once taught in schools. Going back to that isn't an alarming new trend, it is the way things were for hundreds of years. It was there when I was in Elementary School, I'm only 38. It was taken out of them for a very short period of time.
There has always also been 2 extremes. The Far Left is just as Nutty as the Far Right. Lets not take one side over the other.
To answer your original question "what went wrong" the truth is that the 2 sides have become extremely polarized to the point hat most Americans don't truly relate to either of them. Politics have gotten downright absurd, and most politicians don't even believe in what they are selling us! Both sides take an extreme viewpoint in their rhetoric, and make backroom deals about what is going to happen. Jesse Ventura, who is not a career politician, but made it into politics by popular demand compared it to professional wrestling.
Also if it is worse to be called an atheist then gay, what is the profane word for an Atheist in America? In Arabic it is "Infidel". Which translates to "Godless".
Most people in America, however don't hate Atheists or Homosexuals. It is safer to be Atheist or Homosexual in America then it is in most countries.