I will happily join an FSU effort next age. Really. So much more fun than anything else.
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I will happily join an FSU effort next age. Really. So much more fun than anything else.
Agreed, DonJuan. I like to get it out of the way at the time of engagement. I'm usually alone and I've been criticized for jeopardizing players who don't understand the system. Now maybe that big kingdom will CF but, as we know, kingdoms of the competitive order watch each other. If one farms a hapless t/m, that t/m can be assured further harassment.
~ you are a safe hit ~
- for honor
- for acres
- for scientists
- for gold
- for escaping meteors
- for taxes
While I feel retaliation is generally the correct action, I think I'll explain further. If retaliation is correct for an organized kingdom, it is doubly so for an unorganized kingdom. To not have a reliable core or strategic navigation to rely on it comes down to those who step up for the kingdom. When players come and go and monarchy is disrespected the last bastion of hope are those willing to fight against all odds.
So many see it differently.
If you're willing to put up with noobness you can join my ghetto this age! We have a human/tact ready to go!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
^ This! It basically sums it up, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elldallan
I'm fine with Eldallan's reading but I also understand the OP's point. If ANY warring KD on the server would get fed on by a top-KD and refused to surrender and then proceeded to raze into said top-KD's next war, they would be GBed. If I had a problem with another KD and would just razekill them into their next war there would be outrage. While most of the community agrees that diplo should be sorted first, I think most also agree that war should provide some protection. We're not talking about them throwing 4-5 waves without diplo into another KD, or stealing gold just before entering a war.
I dunno, a new KD of morons decided to pick a fight with me. I may need to spend time razing into their wars. If you want you can join me in my crusade of being contrary!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
See, I am good with this. If a top KD makes it seem to me like razing into their wars is the right move, I will do it and I will laugh myself silly while they GB me. But that is because I am completely goal-less at this point and I truly do not care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
You could always join my kingdom Sheister, we piss off a lot of people on a regular basis.
^^^ That is exactly how it must be. I make it very clear we will retal. Top kd or not. Pushing us further will result in razes into war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Ok, they could GB and Razekill us, but that is also the reason we build a kd of friends rather than professional players. We could afford to annoy the top kd all age and the next and the next without losing the fun factor.
The problem is that griefers will grief. They have no bonds to their kingdom, no care for their province, they are just getting their rocks off by giving their egos an outlet. If you care about your kingdom and province, you will be the loser.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousBoy
Sheister admitting he's griefing in this thread sums it up. He just gets pleasure from it because he has no goals this age.
Little you can do, and Strato is right when he says all you will get from posting in here is a lot of critical hot air.
I actually did not get that impression from Sheister. I think Sheister is just having fun playing the game and he thinks its amusing when kingdoms try and bully him. And he is also happy that he is teaching other players how to stand up for their selves as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetiepie
The impression of the OP I have is that he is a ghetto bully who picked on the wrong kingdom.
Ghettos are always going to cry over **** like this.
If a smaller KD retals you, you either close relations with diplo to avoid a conflict or you crush them. If you don't want to spend the time or are incapable of crushing them, close ****ing relations.
Ghettos gonna ghetto
Yes, if you bully some casual KD / ghetto...and they decide you aren't being reasonable, they are going to grief you. Its the only defense they have against "serious" top KDs that act like bullies. Some instances are reasonable, some instances are not. Ultimately, reasonable is in the eye of the griefer...not you. So best play nice and close out relations if you plan to war later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetiepie
I believe you have me right there. If I were merely a griefer, I would not attempt diplomacy first. Strangely, most of the ghetto's I am not tormenting believe that because I am not a M or S that I have no place in diplomacy. Strange kids......Quote:
Originally Posted by khronosschoty
They do this in the top as well :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Not that I have noticed. People will say "ok, have your monarch contact me and we can finalize" I have never seen "Don't engage in diplomacy you are not monarch!" followed by razing me three times.
I would think that people would be smart enough to recognize when someone says "look, I have no goals here other than to mess around and slack this age. but if you push me, I am going to have to make things hard on you, please CF us" the other side, who has made 4 unanswered hits into that kingdom, or in this case on that one province, would stop, think, listen, and do the smart thing.
I guess not...
What I get instead is "Don't threten me! You are not big enough to threaten me!" More razes. So I bide my time until they are in war and then I raze all their chains with my cuddly avian warrior for 75 acres/wave. 10-20% rax on an avian warrior can easily raze off 225 acres daily. For some reason people just don't think.
You have changed your initial statement. Occupational hazard I guess.
Did I? I am not spending too much time parsing.
OMG! You got me Matija!
don't try to rules lawyer someone who has no regard for rules Matija. It does not work.
Ah the pigeon playing chess example again? Just messing with you anyway so don't care :D
Someone with no regard to the rules would need extra explaining, you are easy :P
I doubt any professional chess player can beat a pidgeon at chess. Simple fact is that the pidgeon will not accept the rules as they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija
Kasparov: "Peon C2 - C4"
*Pidgeon jumps on the board and smashes his formation*
Kasparov: "You cannot do that"
*Pidgeon ****s on his head*
Kasparov: "gfg fml"
Community: "What do you expect, you're playing chess with a pidgeon"
If I was Kasparov I would observe other pigeons, pick out the one that looks the toughest and let it loose on the one that shat on my board :D
First I don't think a top-KD would be silly enough to leave their relations open like that, they'd make sure to close them by whatever means necessary, or pass off the conflict on some friendly ghetto.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
And second, top-KD's typically look for their own benefit, if they don't stand to gain anything by GB then GB would only happen if age is already over and the Top-KD's have lots and lots of free time & boredom. So if you read the waters the chance for getting gb'ed is slim to none. I've yet to really see a GB situation where the top-KD's joined in against their own personal best interest, they like to claim they're doing it for all sorts of noble reason but it's BS and always comes down to self interest when you wash away all the meaningless PR BS.
Its not the top-KDs that should be worried about this actually...sure Top-KDs will always get more attention once they f- up and gets nub-rolled while they are not looking...but its really the organized Mid-tier KDs that have nub-leadership that don't realize what can happen when they make enemies.
It could be due to simple retals of randoms for expample...many of those kind of mid-tier KDs that will easily roll over for the top-KDs and then expect the same consideration from every KD smaller than them.
Its even worse because they have no accountability because they are so inexperienced in organized growth OOW since they DO NOT KNOW how to look for safe retals...then once they get retalled they try to assert their dominance by giving hostile ops.
This happens every day...and can easily end up like AnonBoy's KD since these type of nub KDs dont pay attention to their relations...they are much more susceptible to these guerilla tactics.
Its well know fact good KDs stay small so they can hunt big one. We really need protection on big n00bs!
The sense of entitlement amongst bigger kingdoms is infuriating.
We used to get crushed by bigger kingdoms, top 20 usually, randoming into us, and just expecting to get away with it. We decided a new strat this age, and our policy is to retal every random from top kingdoms at least once. If they take offense, we give them a choice: cf us or we hit into their next war. three from three have taken the cf.
It might not be the most honourable, but its very effective... i don't feel bad about it at all.
My point is, don't whinge about people hitting into your war. It's not cheating. There are game mechanics reducing gains significantly during war. Don't try to bully smaller kingdoms and expect to get away with it. Of course they will stand up for themselves.
Dont come crying when those Kingdoms razekill you in your next war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonzilla
Guess your Kingdom never randoms either.
Agree with you. Being smaller don't mean you cant retal/hurt bigger KD in retal war and get deal. You don't need to say you will raze/hit them in next war just because they random on your kingdom. Its part from game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folle
Razing into a war for a retal is a bit much. Expect to get rked when the wars are done.
Most kds will cf just so a retal exchange doesn't occur.
Most smart reaction for smaller kingdom is this. When big kingdom hit you just send MSG to monarch and tell them if they send CF you will accept and not retal if they keep hit you will start retal. 99% from any big kingdom will accept CF for avoid retals and move on. No need to go extreme and destructive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Jonzilla's not really objecting so much to the 'random', as to the Top KDs' expectation that people aren't allowed to retaliate against them for randoms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folle
It's an attitude as old as Utopia. If anyone remembers the massive Island wars of the first age, that's what started it: The #1 Kingdom in the World had a 'policy' of retaliating x-to-1 for the first hit against them (provoked or not), and of killing any Province that hit them more than once.
By the time the dust settled, suffice it to say that they weren't the #1 KD anymore.
Its not just TOP. Age 52 i was in ghetto with ex kd mates but its was one from most incompetent ghetto build from top players i have see. Like 80% from ppl in KD run TOP strat siting on 400-500 acres and result was we get hits nonstop. So i start retal. After it KD i retal hit me x-2-3 during this time we get few more hits from other kingdoms. I start rotate retals on me and KD ...so its turned i got 24 hits for 48h because i retal "bigger" kingdom. Not only this but i receive a lot scary msg :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Chanain
Dear friend is that glasshouse nice to live in? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Are you trying to be clever again Korp?
I've never threatened to raze into war for a single retal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
I'm with Elit exept I retal first then make nice. Remember the line in Raiders of the Lost Ark? "Bad dates."
One monkey dies to save others.
Im with you too don't matter what you post ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by StratOcastle
You figure it just doesn't make sense to message a kingdom in the process of waving/randoming.
I can see the attack progression and it'd be cool if they just skip me. I feel it's up to each guy, or a t/m to request vengeance or just eat the attack.
I know a few monarchs would go ballistic, but just hold my beer. I can't curl up in a ball, especially when a gleaming whore kingdom is surgically removing acres. I'm gonna ride that thing. I'm gonna jump on its back and see how long I can stay on.
I think both kingdom should be sympathetic to meta driven curiosity. Now I understand the whore kingdom has an itinerary so I try to get even as quickly as possible. I take time to phase in the aggressiveness so a truce can be had before a full array of harmful effects are in play. Basic rules are each enemy action is met with a detrimental reaction. So like last age, if the enemy grabs more intel after the initial attack/retal I'll cast explosions or something that won't hurt unless they continue.
Now to tone this down to sanity, I do respect the CF environment in top/competitive kingdoms. IF I'm in one of these places then I'll abide the rules. I don't seek recruitment anyways because I enjoy choosing my own race and personality.
This is more in reference to mercenary volunteering. I've surrendered acres for diplomacy and don't feel any attachment to the acres. Additionally, the memory of building acres through whoring does nothing for me.
The basis of my philosophy is this. A warring kingdom should embrace a top invasion. This should be what you've been training for all your life. They are the best. To accept defeat without facing them is a waste of opportunity.
It's not the single random or single retal that is the problem, its only the tinder to the flame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
It's how the aggressive KD reacts after they are retaliated that's the core issue of this thread.
If the KD on the offensive make a hit and is retalled by the defensive KD:
-- a smart offensive KD would leave that retal alone and not provoke unnecessary hostile that might deviate attention or focus on upcoming preparations
-- a dumb offensive KD would probably retal again and ask their KD mates to hit the defensive KD more...causing more retals to happen if they just so happen to encounter an organized KD.
A dumb offensive KD would also risk open lop-sided hostile for extra acres...hoping that the KD they encountered is not organized and just wilt under pressure.
Given, most are and most do respectively since everyone else says..."dont be dumb" and "dont start anything" aka keep the status quo
The question really becomes: why aren't we promoting KDs to be more active/aggressive on their OOW defense?
If everyone did, there could be a small shift in the meta-strategy of the OOW game where many KDs that randomly attack would be reluctant to "bully" the kds that retal back.
Before...nub KDs would flock to alliances and fill that void of defense in which, depending on the alliance you were in, other KDs would think twice before starting hostilities with a kingdom over a retal.
Now that the game is too small, kingdoms cannot depend on allies for defense against KDs trying to stand their ground but just being unreasonably overpowered and abused.
Much of this issue are kingdoms choosing to define themselves as whoring or warring. This isn't just an invisible line, it doesn't exist.
If kingdoms want to imagine themselves as either it's fine, but segregating oneself from interacting on a server wide scale is a bit short sighted. When most kingdoms enter an age they should have some idea where they want to go. They should also be aware that there will be others who will try to stop them.
This is why I recommend kingdoms in the war tier to be prepared from race and personality choices. Whoring tier doesn't need this advice.
Looking at the meta now, I have a few observations.
1. It's very hard to fight back against a big KD unless that KD is a whoring KD/harbours a significant amount of honor.
2. It is WAY too easy to FSU and completely ruin the age of a whoring KD.
Edit:
http://acidcow.com/pics/20121221/megan_fox_09.gif
I've noticed these middle sized scrub kingdom are too full of themselves. They see a small ghettos and think "oh these we can bully with no consequences"