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Yea and my intention is not for the ambush on the undead to be 14, i want it to be 0. I am assuming that the coding for that change (if needed) wouldn't be overly difficult. Since the UD would be getting sent with with the ospecs. I did not want the elites to add to that defense in any way shape or form.
Another work around would be to make them xx/1 and have them fight at 60% as opposed to the current 80% (that would also bring down the specs def)
I'd love this too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andurilas
Another question, albeit maybe crazy due to sleep deprivation;
If you cast TW and get hit. Will the defending peasants transform in soldiers or die?Quote:
Undead
Bonuses
-75% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Spreads and is Immune to The Plague
No Food Required
Attacks convert Offensive Specialists into Elites
Defensive losses automatically convert to soldiers(Permanent Animate Dead)
+3 Offensive Specialist strength
Penalties
Basic Thievery (Intel Operations Only)
No Elite Training
-35% Science Effectiveness
Spell book: Town Watch
Elite: 15/1, 10.5NW
Halfer off specs has 8 off n 6 def for ambush. Formula ultilize racial values. I seemed to have forgotten it myself earlier.
Going Avian this age just to prove a point. Should be fun.
More variety in the disadvantages for all races would be nice and ideal.
Having multiple races with + combat losses just buffs orcs that much more. Meaning more will play them over say avians and the like.
Right now as it stands... next age will be back to its old ways with more than 3/4 of the server as undead, if not then orcs, with limited t/ms again...making it a whackamole game.
Probably the same result you get on a Faery with those cast in conjunction right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nim
There is no math about the diminishing returns of the sci so I can't say anything about it. Same for spawning rate.
There is no diversity in the races and there are still immunizations(which I'm against). Some races have the same penalties/bonuses just different numbers. There is duplication of spells too(don't count faery). The persos and races should be unique otherwise there is no reason to have them.
Und and orc are strong enough there is no need to increase their off further. In case you decide to go with 13-15 off on elite increase the def too. Otherwise you will see 3 races - und, orc and faery. Nobody is going to play with 8 def when there is attacker with freaking 15 off(I know they can't train them but they convert on all attack types so...).
Races
Avian
-25% Attack travel time
+40% Birth Rate
-15% Enemy's Casualties when attacking
Spell book: Fanaticism
Elite: 9/4, 775gc, 10NW
Dwarf
+20% Building Efficiency
Free Building Construction and Can Use Credits to Raze Buildings
-50% Building Construction Time
Can't use Accelerated Construction
+150% Thief cost
Spell book: Mystic Aura
Elite: 8/6, 850gc, 9.5NW
Elf
+2 Defensive Specialist strength
+35% Spell Success (WPA)
+1 mana per tick in war
+25% Military Wages
Spell book: Pitfalls, Invisibility, Fools' Gold
Elite: 9/5, 900gc, 10.25NW
Faery
+50% Combat Instant Spell Damage
+50% Sabotage Operation Damage
+50% Spell Duration
+2 off spec strength
-30% Birth Rate
Spell book: All Racial Spells and Revelation
Elite:6/8, 1050gc, 11.5NW
Halfling
+10% Population
+50% Thievery Operation Success (TPA)
-50% Thief cost
+1 Stealth per tick
-10% Battle Gains
Spell book: Aggression, Mages Fury
Elite: 6/8, 700gc, 10NW
Human
+30% Income
-35% Defensive Military Casualties
-15% Spell Success
Spell book: Greater Protection, Quick Feet
Elite: 10/5, 1000gc, 9.75NW
Orc
+25% Battle Gains
+20% Enemy casualties when attacking
-20% Science Effectiveness
Spell book: Reflect Magic, Blood Lust
Elite: 12/3, 1000gc, 11NW
Undead
-50% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Spreads and is Immune to The Plague
No Food Required
Attacks convert Offensive Specialists into Elites
Defensive losses automatically convert to soldiers(Permanent Animate Dead)
Basic Thievery (Intel Operations Only)
No Elite Training
Spell book: Town Watch
Elite: 11/5, 10.5NW
Personalities
The Heretic
Wizards do not die on failed spells
Thieves do not die on failed operations
Successful spell casts get 35% of rune cost refunded
+20% Spell Success
+20% Magic and Thievery Science Effectiveness.
Access to Nightmares and Gluttony
Starts with +150 Wizards and +250 thieves
The Mystic
All Guilds are 100% more effective
+50% Magic Science Effectiveness
Access to Meteor Showers, Chastity, Blizzard
Starts with +400 Wizards
The Rogue
+1 Stealth recovery per tick
Access to all thievery operations, including 3 unique to rogues: Greater Arson, Assassinate Wizards and Propaganda
Thieves Dens are 50% more effective
+75% Thievery Science Effectiveness
Access to Tree of Gold
Starts with +400 thieves
The War Hero
+100% Honor Effects
Converts some Specialists into Elites on successful land attacks (increasing this amount by ~20%)
Immune to Dragon and Income penalty effects
Access to War Spoils, Pitfalls and Fanaticism
Starts with 800 elites
Undeads will almost certainly convert only on land attacks. I know it hasn't specified exactly what the details are, but as we're all speculating equally I would assume it is similar to how it was in ages past, only converting specs on land attacks, and converting a pretty good number per hit.
Every age, the changes come out and people focus so super hard on one or two specific numbers and just get totally entangled in them...'omg, undead elite is 15! What is going on?! This is so OP it's silly!' Why not try to think about it in a wider setting as well though? Undeads will never get full elite armies. They can't pump statically, so they will always have low twpa. They have terrible sci, so they lag significantly there again. Ospec armies are super susceptible to NS. Elites at 1 def are super suscepitble to ambush. No-one will ever release elites or keep them home, so chaned UDs are almost always going to be stuck on land def. Think about how to deal with them instead of just complaining about them.
Orc is going to push out the most offense here, as it always does.
And again - we say this every age - t/ms have had it too easy for too long. They shouldn't be able to go into war UB. That's entitled thinking. They shouold have to work to get ub. As it is, they can only be single tapped anyway, and whoever hits them has low incoming and is gonna get deep chained. Maybe if you are finding playing t/m too painful, yu should go attacker. Or change your build strat and build hosps, or extra forts, or GS, or whatever that may be. Enjoy the changes and figure out how to adapt to them, instead of just remaining static age after age. It'll help you be a better player, and surely it's more interesting anyway?
This is an issue that is rampant in the community beyond a select few. This is also why Faery continues to be so popular, nerf after nerf...and why Halfling had their elites changed so drastically last age (even though the end result was similar, because people can't comprehend the effect of NW on elites).Quote:
Originally Posted by s0830887
I cannot wait to Ghoul up on abducts! Yr 1-3 will be hella fun :D Mwahahaha
Hi There, would bringing back Orcs get leet creds for successful trad march be possible? Also, going old school how about bring back Dark Elves (DE)?
Ok so you boost offense but leave def alone. I get that being unbreakable shouldn't be a thing when a heavy attacker and t/m are the same size but boosting it that much without boosting def makes this upcoming age the age of attackers. I don't think anyone should have over a 13 attack.
Elf needs to be 0/9 def spec
Avian needs to lose the -15% casualties
Dwarf should be 15% BE
Human should lose the -10% casualties and have a -5% BE instead
Orc is good to go
Ud make it -20% science effectiveness. And add -10% wpa.
Faery get rid of the -5% population.
Halfling could do with not running +2 ospec. Elite change to 6/9. Take away -5% BE
Addressing the wpa issue. Make wizards trainable like thieves. Or have mystics start with a 2.5 wpa instead of 1 wpa. If made trainable you would have guilds increase spell effects (damage, duration)
War hero should lose the +10% gains and be given to tactician instead.
Mystic should be given +1mana per tick (all times)
New spell mystic only. Frozen lands - adds 3 hours to the attack time when attacked.
If no increase in def by military units why not increase how much forts give. Make them 3% bonus, if your running 15% forts you have a 45% increase in dme.
Let's just sim some stuff based on current changes:
Say week 4-5 of the age
UD/WH
Viscount
12 epa, 3 ospa, 15 horses(very much doable with some good randoming with WS = 237 opa RAW.
Now let's multiply:
7,5% payrate, 10% sci, 5% fana, 15% TG, 12% from honor: = 380 opa.
And this isn't even a deeply drafted province.
Orc/Warrior:
Baron
15 epa + 15 horses: 225 raw opa
11.5% sci, 7.5% payrate, 10% BL, 10% warrior, 15% TGs, 4% honor = 400 opa.
Would like to emphasize that a homes-pumped orc/warrior could easily get 500 opa or more.
This simply means that Orc/UD with decent drafting can double-tap a fully turtled faery or elf.
That is why I suggest toning down offense elite values. Make the act of breaking a TM more of an expense. I think 11point offense on Orc more reasonable than increasing numbers. It seems really weird to me that players like Hawk and Zauper are so incredibly disconnected to the game that they suggest increasing overall offense.
Orc 11p (13 with horses) > UD (10.5p on 60% elites/40%offspecs) > Human 10p (12 with horses) > Dwarf (9p, 11 with horses) > Avian (10p elites but lowest due to no horses)
Maybe make undead horses 50% as strong. They have plague and longevity, they shouldnt be top offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
Orc max military sci is 12%, Undead 9.75%. All those numbers seem pretty hopeful with the diminishing returns on sci.
i'd like to propose some new spells and a race immunities system to them:
spells, effects&immunities
asf's wall of text - target is freezed in time unable to any action until reading it's done - immune: orc. they're illiterate.
zauper's ascension - : the target prov cannot attack or conduct any aggressive action due to it's transfer to a higher, better and more chillaxed plane of existence - immune: elves. they're immortal so they're not so easily impressed by any newcomer god.
proteus ego - the target prov me drops 20% cause .. "we can take them anyway"... - immune: dwarfs. their main concern being food they're too low on maslow's pyramid to care about ego.
bart's shadiness - target instantly losses 20% of it's thieves: "we can learn more there" - immune halfers. obviously you cannot teach a halfer anything new about those things.
elit's bad english - all intel is 50% accurate due to language barrier for for x hours - immune undeads, wtf they care about english??
benjamin's podcast - when pressing attack, target is experiencing strange delays as ooopses: "you're hangover and you cannot attack right now. get a beer first", "you're too sober to attack", "not high enough to complete the action" - immune: humans, meh too much tv, internet and vice etc already
korps argument - mages refuse to work before they thoroughly debate pros and cons of ... everything - immune: feary discrete and shy you know, they don't get into arguments.
octo's confession - burden by the sudden guilt poured into they're ears peasants leave by a rate of 25% per tic. also no births are recorded. - immune: avians. birds don't have ears right?? and they don't give birth either.
in the past u couldnt get much over 50% leets with 0 offensive losses. with 25% losses and double converts i expect u wont be able to get above 75% leet which is 10-5 not 12-3, so offense will be lower. Note, thats 15 off/acre and a 15 off/acre war isn't going to happen for most kds almost anytime in the age. ( you need max science and 30% homes to get 15 epa on only 3 wpa 2 tpa 4 ppa...thats not happening week 4-5)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
Similarlly
is not with a viable in war build. sim-ing a prov to get max numbers doesnt really help. i mean a similar full leet dwarf could sit on 375 dpa and 450 opa but its not reasonably usefull. Thing is too the dwarf has to be ~10% larger in acres which means it is even more "Scary"Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
Even though these are just the proposed changes does it beg the question of why play TM? Would anyone even bother to play a mystic with these changes? Is there any point in crafting great WPA and TPA just to get 2x smashed by some Orc or UD from way over any def you have regardless of your size.
It just seems to me like the push for attacking and high leet values, is shifting the game into a major slug fest. I loved the push for more hyrbids, but this is almost making that angle unplayable. Sure people will disagree with this statement, but damn why not a 25 man orc/wh kd or UD kd. Why bother with anything else.
I agree with the sentiment of "why bother playing T/M?" and Orc/UD being OP with their elites.
On the whole, I am rather disappointed with these changes. I feel like it's a mixture of last age and like Age 61; nothing revolutionary about any of it, at all. I was pretty excited about fresh blood coming in and shaking things up, but it appears we're just in for small tweaks and recycling what's been done before.
There are some good suggestions in here about things that would legit shake up the game, like increasing wage costs for elites (making an all-elite army difficult to maintain). We need more of those things to keep the game interesting.
Also, I'm not really seeing how these changes are going to reinvigorate the strategy element; as many have said before me, it'll be the age of orc/UD smash. You can run halfling if you're a sadist, but be prepared to each dirt and lose all your thieves anyway.
First......they already do. leets cost more gc/tick than specs.Quote:
Originally Posted by hav0k
Second,
andQuote:
Originally Posted by hav0k
you build good tpa/wpa because its beneficial in the long run. None of these changes allow for an orc/undead to double a army in t/m in NW range. and as long as your single tapable as a t/m u make things difficult. My kd has had ZERO unbreakables pre war ALL age and hasnt lost. It just takes a differnt strategy. No one likes a war where what it boils down to 6v6 unbrekable t/m's oping eachother and all the attackers do is add a "little" balance and a gc sink for econ.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblogs
finally
to be fair things like "Defensive losses automatically convert to soldiers(Permanent Animate Dead)" havent been seen in many ages, and geting some of those back brings more options. its not like they can code in a completely new concept having seen the code for what 2 weeks? thats what genesis is suposed to be for major new concepts to be bug tested before we get them in wol. would you rather have a "new" concept like every attack abudcts/massacres/plunders (already seen via humans fyi) that gets implemented wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by hav0k
Would you like to slightly power up races/personalities that are not popular this age, to encourage players to try on something new?
This should not be shaking the system too much, as compared to the changes we have this age.
Is there some value to having players try something new?Quote:
Originally Posted by eric1980
Why not? U have new management anyway.
Hey all,
Was thinking on the changes a bit, and although I dont want to join the whole "oh noes, TMs are weak and always getting stomped" .. can anyone give me any reason not to run 22 Orc War Heroes? I mean, those numbers o_O
I saw the numbers Bart posted. Those are very conservative even. And I'd pick Orc WH > Orc Warrior. Even at "just" 400 opa, an orc is going to SMASH a TM and then triple an attacker. 22 orcs means 22 masses on a TM and 22 x 3 trads on a chain. That's 22 masses or like what, 5-6 tms dead? Dont forget that BL + orc and war hero is massive kills / gains.
This age I had a few orcs in the kingdom and we ran between 16 - 18 epa.
As much as I enjoy attacking / attackers, you're going to force a few suckers into TM races while the rest of the kingdom gets to play smashy attacker. Those TMs are going to cry all age long about the random trads they're eating from those undeads trying to get elites, the war heroes looking for honor and in war the complete and utter lack of defense.
I get that we're trying to push orcs / undeads towards the heavy attackers. But their offenses absolutely pumped to the top should not exceed 300 opa. You got your other attackers at about 175-200 opa and then the TMs at 180-200 dpa. Of course it depends on how (well) you run your province, but I think these numbers (looking at the warring tier) are pretty reasonable.
This age Halfling was pretty unplayable for my guys. Very boring as it just .. lacked. Next age that +2 offspec isnt going to make a difference. The moment they think of attacking out, they're going to be massed to bits. Their defensive values this age werent good enough to make side hits in war. Next age with the orcs / undeads running around, those halflings going to be crying all age long. No econ, random hits from undeads/war heroes ..
Elves look pretty sweet. Depending on the orc/ud combo. Might even go for 8/6 elites at perhaps 9.25 nw. Is that military casualties bonus on offense too?
Faeries were beasts this age. I do feel that 40% damage modifier is pretty killer. We ran a few Fae Rogues A/T, and their damage output was pretty sick. I'd go for that 9 point defense on Faeries at most, assuming orc/undead gets fixed. 900 gc elites is pretty fair too, but give them a 6 point offense elite? Not sure how their defense will play out if we give them 9 points and -5% pop. The damage modifier should be looked into.
Avian is a joke. Slapping +casualties on a -attack time race. Give them -25% specialist costs if you want to keep that +casualties.
Human / Dorf are just yuck. Guess dorf is reasonable (why would you want to play it though?), but especially Human got a huge kick in the nuts. It was strong this age because of sage/sciences, which has been tackled. Leave them as they were this age, but remove Revelation. I dont think they need GP.
The personalities pretty much unchanged. Thoughts on giving Tactician +10% enemy kills? Might give it a bit more juice compared to Warrior +1 general and that pretty sweet looking War Hero.
Considering Sage has no revelation, I would think -50% losses on abducts will be nice for them? Give Sage +10% BE?
Rogues - very powerful. Dont like the thieves dens reduction, but I agree they needed to drop something big.
Mystic - Give cs?
In general, I'd like to argue in favor of a boost to wiz production. For all I care increase guilds production to 0.03 rather than 0.02 / hr / guild. It takes too long for any TM to recover from AW and/or masses.
Regards,
NighT
We can bring back DE if the racial penalty is -2 mana per tick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom31
Current age Orc/Warrior running 18 EPA provides over 400 OPA, somewhat higher than the numbers posted by Bart. Why did you not run 22 Orc/warriors last age? Your view of T/M defense and KD structure are not realistic, most attackers wouldn't be of the size with the enemy T/M, only a few of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by NighT
Funny, aside from OOP I don't remembering a war I started under 230-240 opa, as a dwarf, with 8+ ppa into thieves+wizzards.Quote:
Originally Posted by NighT
at "offenses absolutely pumped" I reached about 300 opa, with 10 dspa 5.5 wpa and 4.5 tpa to boot.
We had to work for it, but our halfers were able to make side hits every war.Quote:
Originally Posted by NighT
Why am I going into these numbers? Because there is no huge shift happening in T/M defense vs attackers offense this age. With the current changes the balance does shift slightly more towards attackers, which I believe is unnecessary. But I don't see this completely breaking down traditional war dynamics.
Some of your T/M crew got broken? chained or massacred? Great! I do not see the appeal for the types of wars where a T/M crew sits UB on top of each KD opping each other.
Listing static, beginning of war, pumped numbers has it's value. but war is a dynamic process and offense quickly erodes. Most wars see at least half of the attackers chained, more in longer wars. Why do you expect your entire T/M crew to sit up there unscathed? My opinion is that this would be bad design.
If you truly believe that running a full Orc KD is the best way to go for next age, by all means go ahead. Wouldn't such a shift be the exact thing people here complain is lacking with these changes?
How can people claim that the changes are boring, and altering the way war KD's should structure themselves fundamentally at the same time?
You do realize that their defense will be the same with offspecs home or offspecs out, so sending their offense out won't change their defense... and thus they can get massacred without having to attack out all the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by NighT
The real question is, how does NM effect UD leets? Do they put them back to specs?
The numbers on paper are scaring people, but you're right, it's barely a shift, but only at the extremes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aelia Capitolina
Look at things from the normal Utopian's view (read: not the Bart of Sparta uber view where everything is amazing and every bonus is yours for the taking):
1) Undead will not be running full elite offenses most of the time, so going half and half on offspecs(9) and elites(15) average them out to a 12 point offensive unit. Oh no, one up from last age. The horror.
2) Orcs also go up one from last age, but so do Faeries on defense. What's the difference next age between the biggest attacker races and the biggest turtle race? Not a single raw military digit. The difference is in how well you play them; always has been, always will be.
3) Past that, however, everyone takes a hit in comparison; none of the other races can compete with the pure numbers of the big three. But they have other strengths, which is the whole point. Why have every race capable of doing the same thing or competing in the same circumstances? Every race has its strategic uses, they're varied and interesting. Some aren't as good as others, but they all have a place at the table.
... except Human. Man are those guys still as bland as ever. Somebody throw them a bone and give them some purpose!
WH needs to lose gains mod, fana, and honor +100%.
Also, any KD worth its salt will get way better conv nrs. Hell, if I had a friendly KD also running Ud WH Id just spend 2-3 days retal warring to:
1. Create honor
2. Get full elute armies
before going to war.
this is all very much open to abuse (and abuse thats hard to combat because unlike FWs fake hostiles arent illegal).
Why would it? From my recollection it has never worked that way and I don't foresee them coding something completely new just for a single race.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximII
Presumably UD elites getting NM'ed will suffer the same consequences as any other race suffering NM.
Ie they get put back in training, just because ud can't naturally train elites doesn't mean the mechanism stops existing.
Intentionally "abusing the quirks of the game in ways obviously not intended"(and speedtraining Ud elites through a fake hostile seems to fulfill both criteria) is still "illegal" so they can still be deleted/reset for breaking the rules if there's evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
The problem lies in collecting enough evidence, but if 2 kd's where silly enough to agree through ingame messages to intentionally farm UD elites I expect that the monarchs and any other provinces participating in it will get a swift kicking.
How do you intend to ever have a full elite army as War Hero? Orc, maybe, because you can just buy them, but the point of having conversion is that you need a healthy number of offspecs to actually convert INTO elites. You'll never have an all-elite Undead army unless you get to maybe 85% elites and then release all your offspecs because you're just not converting much anymore. Now I know you understand the conversion mechanic, so just stop and think for a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
And stop it with the honor rankings on races like Undead; there are, what, 10 Undead Viscount or higher and we're already at the end of this age? The average player (you know, MOST OF UTOPIA) will not achieve higher honor, even if it's created by attacks OOW. There will always be someone to take more away from you than you make.
Which was a pretty stupid and needlessly complicated rule. So my suggestion would be to fix that ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija
Sorry, I should've said "near full elite armies". Happy :D ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Verminator
Hence ghetto's won't be able to do it, but good KDs that use wapp/IRC for communication with other KDs can. Hence it creates another systemic imbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elldallan
Oh, wow! we agree on something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
I think we agree on more than you think Magicus. I simply wish to understand the game fully, not just its mechanics but also the motivations of its players. That means one has to have experienced all of it:
The urge to move from war to war
The ruthless Game of Thrones at the top.
FSU kds and their motivations (and the way to respond).
The thing I hate most though is tactical one-dimensionality, and current changes will lead to that. Ideally each race should be playable with at least 5 personalities and not be at a significant disadvantage.
Barts proposed changes look more fun and balanced than the actual changes
G'day everyone,
A new episode of Triggered is now out featuring Dave and Jeff discussing age 71 potential changes.
Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rocnOWslW5Q
Ben
That's great. Going to listen to that now :).Quote:
Originally Posted by DM_Benjamin