Age 71 Proposed Changes Suggestions

[Aelia Capitolina]

Hey all,
can anyone give me any reason not to run 22 Orc War Heroes? I mean, those numbers o_O

I saw the numbers Bart posted. Those are very conservative even. And I'd pick Orc WH > Orc Warrior. Even at "just" 400 opa, an orc is going to SMASH a TM and then triple an attacker. 22 orcs means 22 masses on a TM and 22 x 3 trads on a chain. That's 22 masses or like what, 5-6 tms dead? Dont forget that BL + orc and war hero is massive kills / gains.
This age I had a few orcs in the kingdom and we ran between 16 - 18 epa.

Current age Orc/Warrior running 18 EPA provides over 400 OPA, somewhat higher than the numbers posted by Bart. Why did you not run 22 Orc/warriors last age? Your view of T/M defense and KD structure are not realistic, most attackers wouldn't be of the size with the enemy T/M, only a few of them.

I get that we're trying to push orcs / undeads towards the heavy attackers. But their offenses absolutely pumped to the top should not exceed 300 opa. You got your other attackers at about 175-200 opa and then the TMs at 180-200 dpa. Of course it depends on how (well) you run your province, but I think these numbers (looking at the warring tier) are pretty reasonable.

Funny, aside from OOP I don't remembering a war I started under 230-240 opa, as a dwarf, with 8+ ppa into thieves+wizzards.
at "offenses absolutely pumped" I reached about 300 opa, with 10 dspa 5.5 wpa and 4.5 tpa to boot.

This age Halfling was pretty unplayable for my guys. Very boring as it just .. lacked. Next age that +2 offspec isnt going to make a difference. The moment they think of attacking out, they're going to be massed to bits. Their defensive values this age werent good enough to make side hits in war.

We had to work for it, but our halfers were able to make side hits every war.

Why am I going into these numbers? Because there is no huge shift happening in T/M defense vs attackers offense this age. With the current changes the balance does shift slightly more towards attackers, which I believe is unnecessary. But I don't see this completely breaking down traditional war dynamics.

Some of your T/M crew got broken? chained or massacred? Great! I do not see the appeal for the types of wars where a T/M crew sits UB on top of each KD opping each other.
Listing static, beginning of war, pumped numbers has it's value. but war is a dynamic process and offense quickly erodes. Most wars see at least half of the attackers chained, more in longer wars. Why do you expect your entire T/M crew to sit up there unscathed? My opinion is that this would be bad design.

If you truly believe that running a full Orc KD is the best way to go for next age, by all means go ahead. Wouldn't such a shift be the exact thing people here complain is lacking with these changes?

How can people claim that the changes are boring, and altering the way war KD's should structure themselves fundamentally at the same time?

[Verminator]

This age Halfling was pretty unplayable for my guys. Very boring as it just .. lacked. Next age that +2 offspec isnt going to make a difference. The moment they think of attacking out, they're going to be massed to bits.

You do realize that their defense will be the same with offspecs home or offspecs out, so sending their offense out won't change their defense... and thus they can get massacred without having to attack out all the same.

[MaximII]

The real question is, how does NM effect UD leets? Do they put them back to specs?

[Verminator]

Why am I going into these numbers? Because there is no huge shift happening in T/M defense vs attackers offense this age. With the current changes the balance does shift slightly more towards attackers, which I believe is unnecessary. But I don't see this completely breaking down traditional war dynamics.

The numbers on paper are scaring people, but you're right, it's barely a shift, but only at the extremes.

Look at things from the normal Utopian's view (read: not the Bart of Sparta uber view where everything is amazing and every bonus is yours for the taking):

1) Undead will not be running full elite offenses most of the time, so going half and half on offspecs(9) and elites(15) average them out to a 12 point offensive unit. Oh no, one up from last age. The horror.

2) Orcs also go up one from last age, but so do Faeries on defense. What's the difference next age between the biggest attacker races and the biggest turtle race? Not a single raw military digit. The difference is in how well you play them; always has been, always will be.

3) Past that, however, everyone takes a hit in comparison; none of the other races can compete with the pure numbers of the big three. But they have other strengths, which is the whole point. Why have every race capable of doing the same thing or competing in the same circumstances? Every race has its strategic uses, they're varied and interesting. Some aren't as good as others, but they all have a place at the table.

... except Human. Man are those guys still as bland as ever. Somebody throw them a bone and give them some purpose!

[Bart of Sparta]

WH needs to lose gains mod, fana, and honor +100%.

Also, any KD worth its salt will get way better conv nrs. Hell, if I had a friendly KD also running Ud WH Id just spend 2-3 days retal warring to:

1. Create honor
2. Get full elute armies

before going to war.

this is all very much open to abuse (and abuse thats hard to combat because unlike FWs fake hostiles arent illegal).

[Elldallan]

The real question is, how does NM effect UD leets? Do they put them back to specs?

Why would it? From my recollection it has never worked that way and I don't foresee them coding something completely new just for a single race.
Presumably UD elites getting NM'ed will suffer the same consequences as any other race suffering NM.
Ie they get put back in training, just because ud can't naturally train elites doesn't mean the mechanism stops existing.

this is all very much open to abuse (and abuse thats hard to combat because unlike FWs fake hostiles arent illegal).

Intentionally "abusing the quirks of the game in ways obviously not intended"(and speedtraining Ud elites through a fake hostile seems to fulfill both criteria) is still "illegal" so they can still be deleted/reset for breaking the rules if there's evidence.
The problem lies in collecting enough evidence, but if 2 kd's where silly enough to agree through ingame messages to intentionally farm UD elites I expect that the monarchs and any other provinces participating in it will get a swift kicking.

[Verminator]

Also, any KD worth its salt will get way better conv nrs. Hell, if I had a friendly KD also running Ud WH Id just spend 2-3 days retal warring to:

1. Create honor
2. Get full elute armies

before going to war.

this is all very much open to abuse (and abuse thats hard to combat because unlike FWs fake hostiles arent illegal).

How do you intend to ever have a full elite army as War Hero? Orc, maybe, because you can just buy them, but the point of having conversion is that you need a healthy number of offspecs to actually convert INTO elites. You'll never have an all-elite Undead army unless you get to maybe 85% elites and then release all your offspecs because you're just not converting much anymore. Now I know you understand the conversion mechanic, so just stop and think for a second.

And stop it with the honor rankings on races like Undead; there are, what, 10 Undead Viscount or higher and we're already at the end of this age? The average player (you know, MOST OF UTOPIA) will not achieve higher honor, even if it's created by attacks OOW. There will always be someone to take more away from you than you make.

[flogger]

Ambush rolls against defensive specialist value, not offensive.

Edit: oh Persian already said this oops.

Which was a pretty stupid and needlessly complicated rule. So my suggestion would be to fix that ;p

[Bart of Sparta]

How do you intend to ever have a full elite army as War Hero? Orc, maybe, because you can just buy them, but the point of having conversion is that you need a healthy number of offspecs to actually convert INTO elites. You'll never have an all-elite Undead army unless you get to maybe 85% elites and then release all your offspecs because you're just not converting much anymore. Now I know you understand the conversion mechanic, so just stop and think for a second.

And stop it with the honor rankings on races like Undead; there are, what, 10 Undead Viscount or higher and we're already at the end of this age? The average player (you know, MOST OF UTOPIA) will not achieve higher honor, even if it's created by attacks OOW. There will always be someone to take more away from you than you make.

Sorry, I should've said "near full elite armies". Happy :D ?

[Bart of Sparta]

Intentionally "abusing the quirks of the game in ways obviously not intended"(and speedtraining Ud elites through a fake hostile seems to fulfill both criteria) is still "illegal" so they can still be deleted/reset for breaking the rules if there's evidence.
The problem lies in collecting enough evidence, but if 2 kd's where silly enough to agree through ingame messages to intentionally farm UD elites I expect that the monarchs and any other provinces participating in it will get a swift kicking.

Hence ghetto's won't be able to do it, but good KDs that use wapp/IRC for communication with other KDs can. Hence it creates another systemic imbalance.

[Magicus Lex Non Scripta]

Hence ghetto's won't be able to do it, but good KDs that use wapp/IRC for communication with other KDs can. Hence it creates another systemic imbalance.

Oh, wow! we agree on something.

[Bart of Sparta]

I think we agree on more than you think Magicus. I simply wish to understand the game fully, not just its mechanics but also the motivations of its players. That means one has to have experienced all of it:

The urge to move from war to war
The ruthless Game of Thrones at the top.
FSU kds and their motivations (and the way to respond).

The thing I hate most though is tactical one-dimensionality, and current changes will lead to that. Ideally each race should be playable with at least 5 personalities and not be at a significant disadvantage.

[Humanoize]

Barts proposed changes look more fun and balanced than the actual changes

[DM_Benjamin]

G'day everyone,

A new episode of Triggered is now out featuring Dave and Jeff discussing age 71 potential changes.

Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rocnOWslW5Q

Ben

[scheffie]

G'day everyone,

A new episode of Triggered is now out featuring Dave and Jeff discussing age 71 potential changes.

Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rocnOWslW5Q

Ben

That's great. Going to listen to that now :).