Age 71 Proposed Changes Suggestions

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Originally Posted by Pyrr

So these final changes are the last ones?

I dont really care what the changes are, we all need to adapt.

But after first final changes we put in some time discussing what setup, total waste of our time now it seems. No disrespect, but be very clear in what you are putting up. I am happy to help with that from now on if you want input.


To clarify: Elfs have -35% Military Casualties
So now, they can attack with -35% losses?

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Pyrr - I do apologize if I caused you any inconvenience or wasted time. I know it can be frustrating when things you expect not to change, do change. However, I believe the only change that occurred within the Final Changes post was the addition of the War Hero conversions. I had spent a fair portion of time editing the changes to ensure everything we actually implemented into the new code was documented properly and (to save lots of details) I removed that line of text instead of editing it.

However, as Zauper pointed out any Edit's to the Final Changes post after that was only to help clarify things. While I believe my wording conveyed the mechanics adequately, specificity was requested by some and so provided.

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Originally Posted by BoBDuDe

On the topic of "When do actual changes come out?"
I would like some feedback on topics that they KNOW that they either: will/will not/think about it (either from a ramifications or implementation)
When it all comes down to it they are in charge of the changes, and besides some feedback (good/bad/ugly) from other players there is no acknowledgement (good/bad/ugly) from the people who actually implement the changes.

I think (especially since they are players themselves that wanted to improve the game and went so far as to buy it) that they would appreciate the even just an "Hey so and so is a neat idea in our (the owners) eyes and will try to implement your idea.
Even a flat out "We have no intention of implementing so and so idea" could get you off of that idea and maybe into a different direction for a new idea.

For every problem(OP/nerf/strat/mechanic), there are usually a handful of workarounds. Some just in theory, some only in our heads, and some just dont pan out.
But given that the new owners present themselves as players themselves, I think that they can afford some leeway in how they interact in the forums with other players... Especially in Sub-forum named Suggestions.

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Hi BoBDuDe - I have actually thought on this before your request and I do believe it has merit. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a great way to achieve this. The current method of replying with quote is unintuitive and cluttered and makes linear conversation difficult to follow. The only other option I see is for me to edit your post with my response (or Jeff or Bishop). But I don't believe you would get any notification on that, thus never knowing to look for such a response.

One thing to keep in mind is that keeping up with a thread of this magnitude takes significant time. In just 7 days this thread has nearly 440 responses. That's over 60 responses per day (some easy to read and others not so quick to read!). Reading the feedback and suggestions is only a small portion of what goes into finalizing the changes as well. Not only do we read the feedback, we collectively discuss as a team the ramifications such effects might have on the game. Considering that we all have full time jobs, and families that mostly takes priority over the communications that we have it is not always feasible for us to respond in any short amount of time.

You should also note that we did in fact revise the proposed changes to include quite a bit of community feedback from the original proposal.

Last important factor to understand is that final changes do not get determined instantly and posted. It is a collaboration over several days (essentially since the revised changes). It takes time to propose the final changes to one another, discuss the variations we want to implement and actually have them implemented so we can test them to ensure they are going to work as we describe them. With that understanding, we also feel that having Final Changes announced with TOO much time before the end of the current age may be detrimental to the gameplay of the existing age.

Rest assured that we do read all of the feedback and suggestions players provide. Although we may not always directly respond, ideas that we would like to see do get recorded for future reference. Our team is very organized and very thorough. We want to provide the best possible game experience for everyone and to do that we will implement as many features into the game that will have the most positive impact on the community. Not all suggestions will make it to implementation, but such is life.

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Originally Posted by DavidC

Hi BoBDuDe - I have actually thought on this before your request and I do believe it has merit. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a great way to achieve this. The current method of replying with quote is unintuitive and cluttered and makes linear conversation difficult to follow. The only other option I see is for me to edit your post with my response (or Jeff or Bishop). But I don't believe you would get any notification on that, thus never knowing to look for such a response.

One thing to keep in mind is that keeping up with a thread of this magnitude takes significant time. In just 7 days this thread has nearly 440 responses. That's over 60 responses per day (some easy to read and others not so quick to read!). Reading the feedback and suggestions is only a small portion of what goes into finalizing the changes as well. Not only do we read the feedback, we collectively discuss as a team the ramifications such effects might have on the game. Considering that we all have full time jobs, and families that mostly takes priority over the communications that we have it is not always feasible for us to respond in any short amount of time.

You should also note that we did in fact revise the proposed changes to include quite a bit of community feedback from the original proposal.

Last important factor to understand is that final changes do not get determined instantly and posted. It is a collaboration over several days (essentially since the revised changes). It takes time to propose the final changes to one another, discuss the variations we want to implement and actually have them implemented so we can test them to ensure they are going to work as we describe them. With that understanding, we also feel that having Final Changes announced with TOO much time before the end of the current age may be detrimental to the gameplay of the existing age.

Rest assured that we do read all of the feedback and suggestions players provide. Although we may not always directly respond, ideas that we would like to see do get recorded for future reference. Our team is very organized and very thorough. We want to provide the best possible game experience for everyone and to do that we will implement as many features into the game that will have the most positive impact on the community. Not all suggestions will make it to implementation, but such is life.

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Tl;dr version:

These forums suck?

Mystic will become irrelevant due to massacre of wizards. 2-3 opening massacres there goes 3-4 wpa especially if they run bloodlust and/or orc. You have very much failed on that issue. Everything else looks like it should. I have never seen or heard fae being under populated in any novel or fantasy anything but adds flare to the game. Most other races hit there marks on a racial level as many fantasy artist and writers have portrayed. I like the new changes but you will in turn have to take wizards out of massacre or create a spell to help prevent them from easily being destroyed as wizards are only gained over time not trainable at a moments notice as thieves are. Just something to keep in mind. If you don't believe me have same size 2 same size orcs with bloodlust massacre 1 elf mystic each twice and watch them start to fail spells due to low wpa. Yes guilds are twice as effective but that isn't enough trust me. Most attackers this age ran a 3-4 wpa and most sage ran a 5-6 wpa. I ran a 8 and still failed many times after magic shield and reflect magic spells were up. Ofc my 8 wpa never lasted long because of 2-3 massacres. This last war I started with 7.9 and one land grab and 2 massacres later I was 5.8. Which is lower than some sages at the time.

Just try it and see. And also look how long it takes to recover the 2-3 thousand wizards killed. Run 20% homes at 2500 acres with a 7.9 wpa. Just so you can see it. Not to mention bloodlust is better. Also the military causiltes minus on elf doesn't count wizards. They are separate. That is why we can cast spells even though the military refuses to operate due to lack of wages or overpop.

Am I only one seeing that mystics are easily manageable and become irrelevant with 4-5 massacres?

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Originally Posted by Alleria

Yes guilds are twice as effective but that isn't enough trust me. Most attackers this age ran a 3-4 wpa and most sage ran a 5-6 wpa.

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This will be fixed for the coming age due to the changes to sci (channeling science no longer modifies wizard production, sci spawn being lowered/Rev nerfs/higher scientists required to reach caps means there will be less sci floating about and a greater need to focus on the desired areas - most attackers don't focus channeling early on). And mystic got a guild boost back, though really the major challenge to maintaining wpa advantage in age 70 was popspace rather than speed of training.

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I ran a 8 and still failed many times after magic shield and reflect magic spells were up..

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It is often useful to MV these spells before a casting run.

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Am I only one seeing that mystics are easily manageable and become irrelevant with 4-5 massacres?

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Mystics have always been counterable. It still requires a signficant input of resources from the enemy (either offense power wise - 4-5 massacres on a TM is costly - or rogue stealth). As it should be, on both counts.

Also, just as a general comment, I think it's good to get in the habit of thinking about your province in terms of what it can do rather than what it can't. Yeah, if you eat 4-5 massacres, it's gonna hurt your MS success. You can still do many things to help your KD. FB fat attackers for pop control, ET rogues, etc. All is not lost :)

Good points but being that wizards aren't trainable I still believe they should be excluded from massacre.

I forgot what I came in here for which was to ask: any chance we can get some clarification on the buff to raze damage in war?

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Originally Posted by Alleria

Good points but being that wizards aren't trainable I still believe they should be excluded from massacre.

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The only thing that affects more wizards being massacre'd is Orc +gains. Blood Lust does not increase gains, it increases military losses which as you pointed out does not include wizards.
You are also assuming a lot of factors to be ideal which likely won't ever be the case.
Coffee pointed out very clearly however, magic science no longer increasing wizard production will bring WPA's across the server more in line, couple this with science on every province will not be maxed (most attackers will probably sacrifice magic science) and mages are going to be ahead even more.

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Originally Posted by Coffee

I forgot what I came in here for which was to ask: any chance we can get some clarification on the buff to raze damage in war?

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It will destroy more buildings than it did previously :)

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

Deep chaining is currently the only really feasible way to disable a province. The reason that deep chaining is so used is because it's simply too dificult to kill off offence.
If it was made easier to kill off the offence of attackers then the need to chain as deeply would decrease or go away. So either change overpopulation mechanics to include troops out on attack or come up with some other way to touch troops out on attack that doesn't depend on ambushes.


I do think that the game needs to have some destructive elements. I don't want a game where every war is an endless slugfest where there is no noticeable change until the game decides for you by some completely arbitrary metric that you have won/lost the wars. Wars should have clear winners and loosers where both sides clearly sense who has won/lost. That being said, recovering troops is a whole lot easier than recovering acres and troops so if we could decrease the need for deep chaining by enabling proper disabling of provinces at larger sizes that would be good.

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I have been here long enough to know the history of the game. Utopia at start no kds chain on each others. It was then all began by a top kd, and the chain strats get famous and every kds start copy it.

The same goes with Nightmare. No idea since when a kd decided to go all Faery an age and then boom, Nightmare strats become famous all of a sudden.

Chaining is never a culture in Utopia. It is the players who thought it out. We are not even the creator of this warring strategy. Saying Utopia now needs chaining to win a war is kind of ridiculous. We are just a bunch of copycats that takes some other top kd's creation and take it as our own.

Be brave my dear fellow Utopians. To take away something that we are all familiar with isn't easy to adapt, but trust me, it is necessary.

Thank you David and Jeff.

Wizards will be back to sane levels this age.

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Originally Posted by Alleria

Am I only one seeing that mystics are easily manageable and become irrelevant with 4-5 massacres?

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In your post you are talking only about elves as mystics. IMO h/m is going to be the strongest mystic next age. T/ms won't be UB at the start of the war but if the enemy focuses 3-4 attacks on massacres that opens the attackers for deep chain without incoming land.

Also pls note that I still think rogues are stronger than mystics.

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Originally Posted by Coffee

You can still do many things to help your KD. FB fat attackers for pop control, ET rogues, etc. All is not lost :)

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ET-ing rogues is harder than MS-ing attackers. Good rogues aim for high wpa.

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Originally Posted by Alleria

Mystic will become irrelevant due to massacre of wizards. 2-3 opening massacres there goes 3-4 wpa ...................I ran a 8 and still failed many times after magic shield and reflect magic spells were up. Ofc my 8 wpa never lasted long because of 2-3 massacres. This last war I started with 7.9 and one land grab and 2 massacres later I was 5.8. Which is lower than some sages at the time.

Am I only one seeing that mystics are easily manageable and become irrelevant with 4-5 massacres?

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to add to this

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Originally Posted by DavidC

The only thing that affects more wizards being massacre'd is Orc +gains. Blood Lust does not increase gains, it increases military losses which as you pointed out does not include wizards.

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according to the guide the base gains are 9.5% peasants, 8.5% thieves and 5% wizards. So 5 massacres pre war IN NW Range only lowers your wpa 23%, and thats if you IGNOR GBP. Something like 7.5->5.8 raw wpa....if that makes a mystic irrlevent than why arent you doing it too, its pre war its not like u can be chained. Do a bunch of massacres? Is it because you cant give hostile or u'll get declared on? Then plan out your hostile better so u can massacre.


In contrast the IN war the IN RANGE massacre damage is uped to 36% peasents 28% tpa 15% wpa. 5 massacres would lower wpa 56% IN war and take wpa from like 7.5 to 3.3 might make a mystic irrelevent but if you can spare the military to do 5 IN NW range massacres you SHOULD be winning your war. And you cant just say "we'll what about spare of massacres" Well gains fall off fast like <5% wpa losses if >40% out of nw range. I've had an oor massacre do less than .5 wpa damage on a 6-7 raw wpa mystic. So 5 oor and you're likely still above 6 raw wpa.


NOTE: on your example. was just bad planning. that one land grab likely droped your wpa way more than the 2 massacres. Once u see how powerfull spare off massacres are then plan a strategy around it. if both kds are doing it both kds have t/m's that drop similar amounts of wpa and then the t/m's are no loger irrelvent everyone's wpa is droping

Orc got nerfed imo, if you use bloodlust on 2 attacks in or outta war you are screwed...also ud got nerfed too, not being able to train leets they can make them 20/1 they will get destroyed once home...its enough for an quick overpop and when armies are homr prop/ns/nm party, ud gone.
Avian looks the most reliable tbh, and you can play sage or wh or warr

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Originally Posted by Alleria

Good points but being that wizards aren't trainable I still believe they should be excluded from massacre.

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Comments such as this usually will not produce a result. As the motive can be easily seen, no race should be excluded from harms in war.

Usually when a kd massacre a Mystic prewar, they arent planning to chain him down later. Its either land grab start from the beginning or just massacre to kill its wizzards thieves.

Massacre lower the Wpa of a prov. Land grab increase the Wpa of a prov. Applying Massacre and then land grab would be kind of weird but let's assume not many kd will play in such a way.

Many alternatives can be applied as long as you really manage your prov well before entering the war. Given a Mystic should be at least having 5 raw Wpa, 4-5 Massacre will probably take away your ability to MS, but leaving 2-3 raw Wpa in your prov, I am sure casting FB would not be a problem. It is just changing strategies in the process of the war, you cant be saying after receiving 4-5 Massacres and you would become totally worthless in war.

Given if the opponent are all well prepared in Wpa and you cant even succeed in FBing, the space that you gain from all the lost troops from the Massacre will still make you rich in income when your peasants refilled later. You are only worthless when you gave up the war stop doing anything or stop login in.

Personally I dont see Massacres on Mystic is an issue at all. Comparing to the attacker roles where they are more vulnerable from all aspects, an attacker can be broken by mage, by thieves and by chain, I really cant see there is a need to complain being a Mystic would be a hard job at all. You worry too much of Massacre, take it easy it arent as bad as you think.