Well after reading all these questions and responses, I will not be putting further money into this game.
Loki, your situation is understandable. Working in IT, I'm not impressed with the implementation....sorry guys. no more money from my pockets.
Printable View
Well after reading all these questions and responses, I will not be putting further money into this game.
Loki, your situation is understandable. Working in IT, I'm not impressed with the implementation....sorry guys. no more money from my pockets.
This is the worst way about going to try and catch cheaters.
There are couples/brothers/sisters/friends living under the same roof who are active, and understand the game well enough to know that targeting the same person for ops/attacks is the key to winning wars. They are on IRC and interact with everyone and have no need in help running their own province, very much like everyone else playing Utopia, yet they just share an IP address. Why should they suffer the consequences of this obvious fail change. I enjoy teaming up with my kingdom who are from all over the world to provide the maximum hurt on a few provinces, and now you are implementing a change for the people who actually have fun together in real life doing this...and I know for sure that they are loyal players of this game to want to play it together in the same kingdom. You are hurting the people who have enjoyed and played your game probably longer than you and I have probably. Worst possible strategy ever.
And please Bishop don't tell me that the solution for this is to go find another target and that it is the easy way to adapt this change. Unless the people in question have less than 50 IQ and playing this game then it should be fine...Everyone competent knows that focusing on a province(s) with ops and attacks is the key to success. Much to the spread of MS/Greed/Riots would further destroy this system.
This system is fail, and you have been only replying to the people posting here that can be given easy and obvious answers. Man up and face the fact that this system is flawed more than it will provide help to ending the cheating and even increase the need and want to proxy or some other form of cheating to want to help play this game of yours. This is a step in the wrong direction.
Lets clear same stuff up, because this thread is deteriorating horribly and there are some very bad assumptions being made.
First - sitting. When you sit someone that province inherits your IP - for all intents and purposes they are you. Since you don't get blocked interacting with yourself (har har) you will not be blocked interacting with your sat province. If you are blocked from interacting with province C then so will a province you sit.
Second - its ok to xlog your partner. I almost fell off my chair reading this (well, i scowled a bit). It is not OK, not in the slightest.
Third - this wont fix any issues. As someone that has dealt with support for a long time now I can assure you this will address a major problem we have.
Forth - i can make a multi and not interact. We aren't stupid :/ we still log all provinces/account activity and can investigate them.
Five - This cripples couples. Not really, we've been tracking the interactions for a month and we know that the effect is minimal. It takes minor adjustments to facilitate couples in a kingdom.
Six - You didn't tell us this would happen! We did I'm afraid, we had a link on your throne room for a month.
Let me know if i missed something.
I hope you were a cheater adressing his kd mates with that line :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr1timeposterForumMan
Hehe... yeah I should probably stop posting now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
You missed the fact that couples/brothers/sisters/friends playing this game understand how to play this game as well. You just merely cant allow them to deter away from the KNOWN Utopia strategy of chaining a province, blanketing MS/Greed/Riots, or just NS/FB the hell out of an easy target. Wtf, they are now at a huge disadvantage from the widely, if not only, strategy used in game...
Your logic is irrational. This is a team game. Obviously there are still individuals which can't get into a good team and thinks everything is province vs province. It's not "me against him", it's "us against them". If they find someone that xlogs all the provinces in his kingdom - they should delete him, but FFS why force couples of either playing in different kingdoms, cheating or quitting, because they fail in catching cheaters? Stopping two people in a kingdom from interacting with each other wouldn't stop farming and cheating. I am not against that change, I am against the change for people in the same kingdom, for the group effort. Other then that, I agree that it could help in reducing the farming and the creation of farms as a whole. Try to think about this for a while, maybe you'll finally understand our position.....Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
That's bull**** and you know that. Top kingdoms are as legit as they have always been, but that's a discussion for another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkz Azn
Watch the language. And Dark Azn's statement was pretty accurate from my experience, most cheating is in mid-level kds now, as (most) top kds have no reason to cheat with sitting available and enough friends to get whatever intel they want.
Bishop,
I think you have misunderstood our point. It is not okay to xlog your partner. That is cheating. Our point though is that gains from this form of restriction don't outweigh the costs, so it fails a cost-benefit analysis. Therefore, it is not worthy of pursuing in its current form from a business perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
My entire kingdom's strategy is affected for the worse. In organized kingdoms, couples are basically being forced out of the same kingdom. Meanwhile, you're racking up fees that I don't feel we should be incurring. You claim I am sorry out of luck because you had a link posted on my throne page. Guess what? I don't read half of those links! That's the consequence of crowding the links on the throne page with stuff that isn't newsworthy. I stop caring what you put there, and I stop checking them because I have no responsibility to check them. If you want to pull the I should have looked card, then you should have put it in the tos or something for which I was responsible for keeping up with revisions. Frankly, that reasoning is farcical and like adding insult to injury.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
What action will be taken to prevent moderators from being condescending and rude to paying customers seeking customer support on these forums? If no action is planned, does that mean you condone their behavior in your absence? Would it be possible to have the rude individuals apologize to myself and these other fine players in this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Thanks.
The partner hits chain 2 is the solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archers_Bane
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scavenger
There's a difference between rude responses and responses that you don't like the answer to. I'm sorry if you feel like it's been condescending, but we are simply trying to point out the realities of what this system does and why it's needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by loki EQ
You're assuming they HAVE to cheat to play well. They don't. If your kd is so stubborn with holding on to a 25 player chain and not understanding the circumstances that you and your spouse (or whatever) can't target the same guy, then your kd is making you leave, not the devs. I might be more sympathetic if 25 player chaining (or anything that really falls into the category "forcing" couples to quit) was somehow vastly superior to any and all other strategies, but it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eus
Utopia is a strategy game and the whole fun of a strategy game is when you need to change your strategy. Couples can still play together, you can still coordinate together, you can still have fun and you can still be successful. You just can't be glorified x-loggers.
So you would force us to spread hits just because your detection system is set up that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Case 1
2 players. One is T/M, the other Heavy attacker. The T/M has just blanketed the most dangerous provinces with Riots and MS. The other is asked to attack one of them because that's the first chain. He can't because his brother just did some ops. Good way to destroy teamwork.
Case 2
2 players. One is Faerie (the only one and there are no UD), the other is Elf. The Elf FB's a prov and asks for Chast. Oops! The game won't allow it.
These are just 2 examples of how these new rules will undermine teamwork.
We are well aware of that - that is the reason we told you in freeze this was going ahead, so you could make sure you avoided both those cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
You completely dismissed the point we made assuming we failed to comprehend your argument. You didn't even consider our point. You then complained you had to break it into simpler terms for us to understand it. You then very simply reiterated your previous point. This exemplifies condescension. Can you really not understand how your behavior was offensive? I pointed it out to you ffs, but you kept on responding personally. You accused us of being "irrational and unreasonable," wasn't it?
Multiple people have responded how rude the responses me and my fellow poster have received from you. They don't think it is good customer service, because it is adversarial and personal and mean. It isn't good business to make the face of your business someone who is adversarial and mean. If you can't see how you have been rude; then you aren't just a rowdy moderator, you're genuinely delusional.
Sorry Landro, but with knowledge of the system being in place those are easily avoidable.
It's the devs fault if people don't think ahead 10 mins with their planning? That's the equivalent of a kd refusing to run any rogues and then complaining to the devs that they're forcing people to quit because no one in their kd can Greater Arson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
Im gonna start having my wife and step son log for me during those important football games now. Id hate to miss a game for a game. Thats legal right?? Cuz how would you know??? Do u have a keyboard fingerprint detection system in the works? If so can we get random notification of a vague implementation date in advance? Thanks.
Does this also mean there is no more need for the Blacklist?
Thats enough, if you have an issue with a mod you can discuss it in Pm with them or speak with a different mod - i want this thread to be kept on topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by loki EQ
Please do not waste our time with spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just another dumb utopian
The argument that everyone should be able to do something because some people get away with it takes you down the road of useless rules and rampant cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just another dumb utopian
I did ask a number of relevant questions that have gone unanswered, Bishop.
i thought i covered them all - what would you like clarification on?Quote:
Originally Posted by loki EQ
Bishop, both as heavy attacker is something you can work around but if one (or both) is hybrid attacker or T/M you're stuck in an organisational nightmare because spreading around ops can have big consequences. (greed/riot/meteor blankets for example)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
The solution for having both provinces optimally effective is to use account sitting during war. You're doing exactly the same but now you're paying for it which makes it ok.
Its not really that hard for the couple to ensure they dont interact - they live together remember?Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
so i am wondering after reading some posts, if a husband ops/attakcs a pv, then his wife cannot op/attack the pv until the end of age? or after a certain time frame(maybe 24 hours), his wife can op or attack the pv?
of course, husband and wife have same ip address.
That is just sad that Utopia has come down to this...and even more sad with the OPS portion of the system triggering the ACCESS DENIED since that it occurs more frequently. Changing the mechanics of the game that wasn't broken to begin with and in turn changing the BEST/ONLY strategy in winning wars is NOT the direction you should be changing to help your cause.Seems like you just ran out of ideas to try and catch legit cheaters and focused on catching little minute details of *possible* cheating. The few couples who play your game and actually follow rules have just now greatly suffered by doing nothing wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
25 provinces hitting one target is far from the only, and certainly best, strategy. And to say it wasn't a problem that needed to be fixed is equally absurd.
Its not unlimited time - after a period the block gets lifted.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebear
Again, its not hard to avoid hitting or opping the same province. Chaining being the best strategy is highly disputed btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archers_Bane
You (as am I) are not capable of knowing the cost-benefit value for this change because as I understand it, this will make our support system much more productive which will make the game that much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by loki EQ
There are 2 ways of taking this:Quote:
My entire kingdom's strategy is affected for the worse. In organized kingdoms, couples are basically being forced out of the same kingdom.
Our strategy (for this age) is affected for the worse - The information was supplied to you in advance of what this change was going to do. If you structured your kd on running 25 person chains or whatever and didn't account for the new anti-cheat system, that falls on you.
Our strategy (as a whole) is affected for the worse - Instead of running 1 mage, you run two. Instead of running 1 chain target, you run two. There was nothing above and beyond superior about 25 person integrated strategies.
If you want to be informed on what's happening in the game, yes you do have a responsibility to check them.Quote:
You claim I am sorry out of luck because you had a link posted on my throne page. Guess what? I don't read half of those links! That's the consequence of crowding the links on the throne page with stuff that isn't newsworthy. I stop caring what you put there, and I stop checking them because I have no responsibility to check them.
If I missed a legit question that you'd still like addressed just bring it to my attention please.
Bishop, just to clarify, ops and attacks also can't interact? And what is the time frame of this interaction? if they can't, and its a reasonable time frame, then it would be highly ulikely that they could just "move on to the other chain target" as the collection of things like SoT is the duty of all.
Secondly, I do not understand the argument that states being able to live/work with a person in your kd is an "entirely unfair advantage." The same people who have said this have accepted that the top kd's that have no siblings/coworkers/spouses/roomates are still doing quite fine. The very point of this game is interaction; not only for a balancing standpoint, from a fun standpoint. Good KD's will be able to organze things and have people log on at similar times, so balancing issue? But more importantly, interaction is the source of fun for the game, and limiting that is a shame.
I also do not understand how its possible that there are so few people who play this game with sibs/sig.others/coworkers/roomates. In my KD alone, we have a a pair of brothers, set of 3 brothers, 2 pairs of coworkers, one of the members of this pair of coworkers is also rl friends with 3 other people in the game, and a group of 3 friens. Out of a KD of 23, 12 people know eachother in rl and for various reasons are in the same area with the same IP very very frequently.
To say that because they know eachother they all x-log eachother accounts is pretty insulting. People are very capable of casually playing a game with someone they live with, be in the same KD, and not cheat.
Our KD may just be an anomoly, but this ability to play with rl relations is also the only reason almost any of them are playing at all. Originaly only one would be playing in our KD, but they would find a friend or relative or coworker who used to play and since they could have the opertunity to have fun together they would join. This game is made for close knit networks of people, and it just seems impossible to me that so few people would actually be joining the game due to their rl relationship to current players.
I'm all for balancing issues with cheating, but you balance so that people can have more fun in the game, and close interaction is the main source of fun in the game.
I must say at first I was a little scared about these changes, but bishop has somewhat calmed me down in his usual cool irish manner (or wait, he is irish right?). I hope this change stops a lot of cheating, and I don't think it will have a major effect on gameplay for partners. We have a husband/wife in the kd, and we've been really worried about what would happen.
Thanks Bishop for being calm as always. I will now go send the province I'm sitting some food!
Topsy this system doesn't prevent RL friends from playing together, and it was never acceptable for them to all (or more than 2 if whitelisted) to play from one IP anyway, so besides maybe the 2 brothers, they aren't really affected here.
You are right assuming they are glued together. Let's say one is at work/school/etc while the other is at home idling in IRC. The one on IRC gets a few PF requests and casts them on the chains. When the other gets home (s)he won't be able to hit a chain because of that. Sure, you can think ahead and do PF on only one prov thinking that the other prov is a better target for your mate, but by the time he gets home he's been chained and no longer in range of the intended target. Why should (s)he be limited in target choice?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
I think the main issue here is that few people see couples playing together as a threat to the game. Yes, it gives some limited advantage but will that really change the outcome of a war? It could be if a kingdom had 12 couples but I don't think that's a very realistic scenario. My concern is that you're tempting honest players to cheat.
DH, i know one of you guys already said that there was a limit to the amount of time before before you could op, but could we get what it is? Im not sure if the message will just be "You are not permitted at this time to do this" or if its "INSTABAN!" and want to make sure that if its the latter we dont have that happen.
Also, is there anyway to ateast get SoT off of the op list? I know that this is probably abused, but even if it might be nice having some super rogue to get your orc SoT, this really does not seem like the biggest issue from a balancing perspective. Also, with SoT included, its just impossible to not interact. Having constant intel is so important, and since its an op that everyone can basically do, i just dont think you could over the course of a war not interact.
Edit: To Landro's point, if it was possible to ban SMS'ing, or texting inbetween players, would you for "balancing" purposes?
And Dh, i didn't realize that. If those players were already never playing from same IP, then i guess these changes won't affect them
Edit2: reread blog post and saw that it is "access denied." That's good. So I guess only suggestion is that its not affected by SoT
They are called friends now? Like the same friends which top kingdoms used for example in the Covenant vs Abs AWar? Fail logic again. And I am perfectly watching my language.Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
That is called teamwork and determination, DHaran. What is happening, devs got too many complains from noobs unable to keep up with wars? Tough deal, but the devs made it look like that! They just HAD to allow trading. You know, if that didn't happen, this conversation wouldn't take place ever. But no, the devs decided that would be money-making machine maybe? And yet another example how the old-timers gets kicked in the butt because of stupid noobs. It began in Mehul times when he banned IM requirements, then when he increased the attack times, then when he removed the away bonuses, etc etc..... So.... frustrating the old players is a way to get new players? I don't really understand that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
I wasnt aware of any argument I was making. I was merely trolling and you actually commented on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
Nub
The Cov/Abs AWar was like 3 years ago, before B&S assumed control and before the new code if I remember correctly. Regardless it doesn't have anything to do with this thread. And cursing is not watching your language, quite the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eus
As for the teamwork and determination of a full kingdom targeting one province, I'd sway closer to bad strategy. It's easy and effective, and far more common, to have more than one target for different groups to target.
Sure, Bishop. Let's just pick one off the top of my head. I've mentioned I don't read the throne links because you guys put too much content there that isn't newsworthy. I also am not under any obligation to read them as far as I know. So, my question is do you still feel I am at all responsible for your system completely decimating my kd's strategy and burdening us with needing two new invites and two new players?
One other question... I have 18 credits currently with my account. Is there any way to get a refund on that money? I would like to spend it somewhere else like at the post office on some stamps.
if you want to arbitrarily make up generalities you have no basis for, have fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
I didn't have time to read through the 11 pages of posts, so sorry if this has already been addressed, but:
Does this apply to sitters?