Stinger vs Munk... best for my kingdom

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Originally Posted by protector

I'm fairly sure munk did start with his site as a fun/hobby project when he first created it and added stuff such as a column with how much offense to be sending. The whole thing has developed since. The base of munkbot is just a copy of what Stinger created.

Stingers responsiveness seems fine. I haven't had any abnormal issues with getting a response from him. At times it takes longer to get a response, people are just busy. Everyone is from time to time.

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I'd like to point out I made my first kd site (that was used by Serenity + lots of VAT kds) back in 2002-2005 -- That wasn't a copy of anyone. When I came back in 2011 and saw how crappy Stinger was (at least at the time) -- I made my own as topsy mentioned. Some things were "copied" from stinger, (e.g. the usual intel site stuff) -- could also argue they were copies of UPO, utopiapimp etc. -- other's were completely new stuff (like the browser extensions, ingame modifications (inspired by Angelus), WhatsApp integration, calling / sms'ing, slack integration, ingame IRC etc). At that point Stinger was using KD forum agent plugin which was really bad. I made a web plugin for Stinger while I used it and improved it for my own site to what it is today. That is what makes good intel sites nowadays (automated intel submission) which Stinger copied. I imagine stinger would still lack a ton of features if he hadn't been pushed to create them due to them coming on munkbot. Competition is good, but to argue that I copied Stinger is pretty far-fetched as I understand that most of his later additions have been copies of my features.

Of course competition goes both ways, and I would be lying if it doesn't motivate my implementations of novel features to keep being the system with the best and most complete feature-set.

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Originally Posted by munk

As to "asking for donations". My motivations to maintain and develop munkbot is two-fold -- on the one hand it's a dear project hobby that I've made because it was fun. I expanded the ability for more users to use it, perform support at inconvenient times / fix downtime, upgraded server resources, buy .sms/.call credit and implemented systems to manage all the users. These things costs time and money -- my kid is 1 year old, I have a lot to do at work and it's hard enough to convince my wife to play utopia -- to "sweeten" the deal for this I've implemented the donation system.

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Is it a donation based system if you kind of force a kingdom to make a donation every so many days? That's just paying for a service: a periodic subscription.

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Originally Posted by munk

I understand that people may find it obnoxious that I often mention donations -- in the end I wouldn't be able to dedicate the time I have without them -- and I expect if I wasn't vocal about it, more people would simply use it without providing any compensation. People on the internet, myself included, often expect things are free -- that just isn't compatible with my personal life.

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Without donations, you'd still be improving the system because that's what you do for your kingdom.

Personally, I think you're a begger. If people appreciate munkbot, you'll see donations without asking people to donate. A simple "Do you like & appreciate munkbot? Consider a donation!" type of banner/text somewhere visible on the website.

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Originally Posted by munk

I'd like to point out I made my first kd site (that was used by Serenity + lots of VAT kds) back in 2002-2005 -- That wasn't a copy of anyone. When I came back in 2011 and saw how crappy Stinger was (at least at the time) -- I made my own as topsy mentioned. Some things were "copied" from stinger, (e.g. the usual intel site stuff) -- could also argue they were copies of UPO, utopiapimp etc. -- other's were completely new stuff (like the browser extensions, ingame modifications (inspired by Angelus), WhatsApp integration, calling / sms'ing, slack integration, ingame IRC etc). At that point Stinger was using KD forum agent plugin which was really bad. I made a web plugin for Stinger while I used it and improved it for my own site to what it is today. That is what makes good intel sites nowadays (automated intel submission) which Stinger copied. I imagine stinger would still lack a ton of features if he hadn't been pushed to create them due to them coming on munkbot. Competition is good, but to argue that I copied Stinger is pretty far-fetched as I understand that most of his later additions have been copies of my features.

Of course competition goes both ways, and I would be lying if it doesn't motivate my implementations of novel features to keep being the system with the best and most complete feature-set.

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I didn't mean to say you just fully copied Stinger, but certain features.

I'd also say that if you're forcing kingdoms to make donations, you're also forced to integrate all their wishes. Which is probably why it's so time consuming for ya

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Originally Posted by protector

Is it a donation based system if you kind of force a kingdom to make a donation every so many days? That's just paying for a service: a periodic subscription.


Without donations, you'd still be improving the system because that's what you do for your kingdom.

Personally, I think you're a begger. If people appreciate munkbot, you'll see donations without asking people to donate. A simple "Do you like & appreciate munkbot? Consider a donation!" type of banner/text somewhere visible on the website.

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He really doesnt though, ive used munk without anyone donating a penny for him. :P

I don't force donations and for that vast majority of users I don't have any contact with them. If they don't donate within 90 days, they lose ingame IRC and auto-def button in war room -- nothing else -- most donate within these days a small amount and are never met with this limitation. After 90 days I point out that it's >90 days and ask if they can consider a donation.

When people come and ask me to spend >30mins on implementing a feature for them I either ask if they'd consider donating to cover my time spent on their specific wish. Other times I don't ask, and as you say, they donate on their own -- or they don't, and next time they ask for me to spend my time helping them I might not prioritize it as high.

I'd argue that people are getting value from the site, and that begging implies that people get nothing in return. I provide a service which takes a lot of time -- I've opted for a flexible payment/donation system because I want to accomodate the users who barely wants to donate (or not at all) as well as those that want to support the development to a larger degree.

In my mind, I use ".DONATE!" more as a joke around the players I often interact with (mostly my own KD), while that might be seen as begging, I expect most people understand the "humor" of it. For outsiders I understand that this might be misunderstood -- especially by douchy people like Protector who is a major loser douche for which I have no respect, who might also might want to fuel the misconception because he is such a douchy turd-like person.

u r doing that thing at the end of ur post that that guy i dont like says not to do.

but in all fairness i donated him 20 buck just for telling me how to use the bot love damn thing think my kingdom up for rotation to buy his beer for the day so he can zone out on utopia and escape reality for the few moment he can....

i would like my wife to play but i fear it would be deleted at a comppetitive moment where i piss off bishop...

and i believe i am going about this wrong i tihnk i just pay developer to create gold on my prov or just free training or something, maybe tank my tb all age negative a bil or something.


anyhows hood luck plz dont observe my porn sites

IMHO Stinger used to be good... but has been surpassed by munk ten fold.

The fact that munk not only offers arguably the best intel store utopia has on offer, but he does it at more than fair prices... AND offers ongoing support not just for the intel site, but for bot intergration with IRC, Slack, ect...

This game would be full of players complaining about how upoopu doesnt work on mobile, or stingerbot has crashed again without any way of contacting the creator.


All hail munk, munkbot, and his ongoing service to me and many other utopians.


EDIT: FYI Protector... my kingdom hadnt made a donation in almost 2 ages! Munk still helped me setup a bot in our slack channels. FOR FREE!

So, off my own bat, I made a small donation to him, as I feel he deserved it.

Its pretty silly to think munk would abuse his bot for intel.. I mean common as a kingdom his kingdom have players taking intel all the time out of curiosity. Most of the intel the kingdom need is always available and if not people jus take it right away. It would be a extra step to have to pm munk every time to get some kind of secret bank of information and then fake it so that it look like you have gathered the intel.

Or do people think munk got his whole kd in on this secret intel thing? With the amount of people coming and going to kds these days wouldnt that secret be out within seconds? Me myself these days whatever kd i was in i would require them to have the munkbot in council chan! Just make thing so much easier.

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Originally Posted by Loons

Why is it a pro for munk Bishop? And ofc u can sell every kingdom up the river sigh

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Munk has a revenue stream to jeopardise, he is more invested.

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Originally Posted by AlphaQUp

Besides Palem and Bishop, everyone else seems to understand the basic conflict of interest which occurs when an active player in a top kingdom has broad intel access including potential access to direct competitors intel.

Also, as many have pointed out here, I have never had Stinger ask for a donation or say I'll do X, but I need a donation. I don't think the same can be said for Munk which would seem to indicate something about the integrity and motivation of the two developers. Who is more likely to sell intel...the developer who graciously updates without expectations (stinger) or the developer who requires donations for everything (munk)? I'm not saying munk does sell intel but Palem has been making a very weak argument that somehow because Stinger doesnt play he is more likely to engage in shady behavior. Stinget doesn't have any real incentive to help one kingdon versus any other. Munk does, obviously, and a few players here have indicated that he would for example remove intel of his or kingdom mates provinces from munk targetfinder to reduce the likelihood of their getting hit. So obviously Munk is not above using his access for the benefit of himself or his kingdom.

Palem/Bishop can disregard the above text since it is not something they can understand apparently...also, anyone find it strange for Palem/Bishop to weigh in on this debate with anti-Stinger rhetoric? Maybe just me...didbut realize they were munk fanboys.

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Everyone else displays a lack of understanding of cost/benefit analysis. Munk has more to lose by using intel for nefarious purposes and is far more exposed because he has a kingdom that can be punished for his transgressions. Someone that doesn't play actually has less risk as you have no leverage to use against him.

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Originally Posted by AlphaQUp

Besides Palem and Bishop, everyone else seems to understand the basic conflict of interest which occurs when an active player in a top kingdom has broad intel access including potential access to direct competitors intel.

Also, as many have pointed out here, I have never had Stinger ask for a donation or say I'll do X, but I need a donation. I don't think the same can be said for Munk which would seem to indicate something about the integrity and motivation of the two developers. Who is more likely to sell intel...the developer who graciously updates without expectations (stinger) or the developer who requires donations for everything (munk)? I'm not saying munk does sell intel but Palem has been making a very weak argument that somehow because Stinger doesnt play he is more likely to engage in shady behavior. Stinget doesn't have any real incentive to help one kingdon versus any other. Munk does, obviously, and a few players here have indicated that he would for example remove intel of his or kingdom mates provinces from munk targetfinder to reduce the likelihood of their getting hit. So obviously Munk is not above using his access for the benefit of himself or his kingdom.

Palem/Bishop can disregard the above text since it is not something they can understand apparently...also, anyone find it strange for Palem/Bishop to weigh in on this debate with anti-Stinger rhetoric? Maybe just me...didbut realize they were munk fanboys.

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1. I guess I have to keep saying it until I'm blue in the face, but if I must, then I must. I think both Stinger and Munk are fine players and I question neither of their integrity. I think both make very useful tools and do their best to host these tools for the community.

2. Some people are making the statement that because Munk plays (competitively) he's less trustworthy. I'm simply offering a counterpoint that could be made that because Stinger doesn't play he could be considered less trustworthy because there's less consequence if he screws people over. At no point have I actually suggested that Stinger is some sort of a scumbag who is selling people's intel. I'm just trying to get people to understand that their "Well logically, because munk plays you shouldn't use munkbot" argument doesn't actually hold up logically.

At the end of the day, Stinger and Munk both have solid intel site solutions.

CR used StingerNET when we were in Absalom, and we found it lacking. At the time, Stinger refused to implement new feature requests. It's hard to say if that was purely because we may have been less diplomatic than we could have been, or if it was something else. Munk did in fact write the first chrome/firefox extension for us to use with Stingernet. The big issue for us, frankly, was not that stinger was a bad solution, it was that we were a kd of people who liked being on utonet and the bot was stuck on absnet. People didn't want to be on two IRC servers at the same time.

So, munk wound up creating munkbot for us. The site shell of munkbot is similar to both his original site from back in the day, and stuff he had made to pair with lucidbot. The two sites borrow heavily from eachother with new features -- competition drives better results for everyone. Maybe Stinger is more responsive now, which is great.

At this point, I believe there are more munkbot kds than stingernet kds, and I don't know of any kd that has left munkbot to join stingernet -- but I do know several kds that have moved in the opposite direction.

What's really most compelling to me - Absalom leadership felt like stingernet was the best bot / web combo when I came back. Emeriti - run by those same people who had used stingernet for 20+ ages - uses Munkbot.

Stinger > Munk.

Stinger doesn't delete aid request of other people to benefit his own prov.

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Originally Posted by SnirpsneR

Stinger > Munk.

Stinger doesn't delete aid request of other people to benefit his own prov.

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To be fair, I didn't delete it, but simply lowered the amount, to increase the likelyhood of my aid needs being met. Show restraint in your accusations.

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Originally Posted by munk

To be fair, I didn't delete it, but simply lowered the amount, to increase the likelyhood of my aid needs being met. Show restraint in your accusations.

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Abuse is abuse. Learn to grow without pool so u don't have to alter aid requests!

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Originally Posted by munk

I don't force donations and for that vast majority of users I don't have any contact with them. If they don't donate within 90 days, they lose ingame IRC and auto-def button in war room -- nothing else -- most donate within these days a small amount and are never met with this limitation. After 90 days I point out that it's >90 days and ask if they can consider a donation.

When people come and ask me to spend >30mins on implementing a feature for them I either ask if they'd consider donating to cover my time spent on their specific wish. Other times I don't ask, and as you say, they donate on their own -- or they don't, and next time they ask for me to spend my time helping them I might not prioritize it as high.

I'd argue that people are getting value from the site, and that begging implies that people get nothing in return. I provide a service which takes a lot of time -- I've opted for a flexible payment/donation system because I want to accomodate the users who barely wants to donate (or not at all) as well as those that want to support the development to a larger degree.

In my mind, I use ".DONATE!" more as a joke around the players I often interact with (mostly my own KD), while that might be seen as begging, I expect most people understand the "humor" of it. For outsiders I understand that this might be misunderstood -- especially by douchy people like Protector who is a major loser douche for which I have no respect, who might also might want to fuel the misconception because he is such a douchy turd-like person.

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Lols, can't accept any criticism so starts insulting. Weak.