#2 province grande mucca deleted

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Originally Posted by Realest

lol utopianub, just because you write a long paragraph does not mean you're right. I don't wanna single you out because there are a lot of stupid radical extremist views, but you need to relax a bit in your little crusade.

As for those of you who think that some poll on these forums would mean anything, let me tell you it doesn't. Basic statistics should tell you how wrong and inaccurate such a survey would be. Go educate yourself on these matters before saying something about going to the community.

As for dorje and others who thinks we need to list out explicit guidelines on how to rule this game, I'm less than impressed, mainly at dorje, because I know hes a smart guy so I'm gonna assume hes just trolling. It shouldn't be hard to figure out that laws rules are interpretive, and rigid firm laws are more exploitable than malleable ones.

Lastly, Ryan certainly didn't deserve to be deleted. I like the kid so I can understand the community outrage here since I dont view the situation from a hater perspective. However, this deletion is s the cost of leaving ambiguity in his "war terms" and when you pair it up to his subsequent war. As flimsy as Bishop's "case" may be, I don't see how anyone can vehemently defend Ryan. Sure, you can presents all kind of reasonable doubt, but Bishop has shown in the past he doesn't go with that, so hes just being consistent here.

Relax people, there's no need to present such radical views for a few likes and hits to your fan page. If you have a point, it'll shine through eventually. Trust me, I'm a doctor.

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you know its bad when I'm the voice of reason

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you know its bad when I'm the voice of reason

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True dat.

how long were they in war for before deleted? 18 hours?

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Originally Posted by DHaran

Well that was a waste of my time, can you read the thread next time?

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Only the 4th quote links this province to FW. The other quotes are just general statements.

General statements about the province after which this thread was named being deleted. What good is this nitpicking doing? He was deleted for FWing during a war that wasn't fake.

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Originally Posted by Nuriho

how long were they in war for before deleted? 18 hours?

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we were in war around 2 days before it

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Originally Posted by Blaine

we were in war around 2 days before it

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So being in war for around 2 days means the devs know that you plan to whore land in war until EoA. Since it was deemed a fake war because they knew the provinces in question were going to whore land and reach, in one instance, #1 spot in land from #2 spot in land. It would need an EoA war for this, wouldn't it? There was no question at all that one kd or another would withdraw, because the devs KNEW it was a fake war for whoring land, regardless of hindsight that one kd withdrew since they were rather beat up and were going to take more of a pounding -> with or without the land whoring fake war going on.

I dunno, seems rather biased decision with lack of thought going on.
Definition: Decisiveness means that you are able to make good decisions without delay. Get all the facts and weight them against each other. By acting calmly and quickly, you should arrive at a sound decision. You announce your decisions in a clear, firm, professional manner.
I feel that there is a lack of Decisiveness going on, when I'm presented with the facts. Bishop says it's obvious that he's right that it was a fake war and deletions for the win, but to me it seems a lack of decisiveness, mainly a lack of a good decision due to lack of comprehension of the facts. The lack of comprehension, to me, based off of Bishop's vague responses, seems to be due to bais and lack of thought, and not lack of facts. However, that's assuming Bishop did the deleting.

[edit]
thinking some more on it, if their reasoning was influenced that no ops were done on either bank, that means in 50% of the wars I've had vs banks, those banks should have been deleted due to it being a fake war for them in particular. All this action means is that in all wars involving a bank, I'll simply report it due to suspicion of a fake war, as that bank has an easy potential to grow land -> whether he is using it or not (eg. Grande Mucca would have grown more by training up his offense to hit the other bank in his fake war where he was land whoring it up)

If they don't want banks in the game, shouldn't they just say they'll action banks? Or change the game mechanics, like how exploring works, so banks aren't plausible?

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Originally Posted by Bishop

I don't believe that current leaders think it is allowed to create fake war to farm to number 1.

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I wasn't aware you (and I mean 'you' in the same way you mean 'we') had a dog in that fight...

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Originally Posted by Landro

I get the impression that Bishop deleted the province because he was abusing war to grow in safety. It's easy to argue that this is in violation of the spirit of the rules.

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I can grow just as safely OOW. Though I grow (-100) to 200 acres faster per day in war assuming no LL. If this was solely for personal benefit I'd have gotten us a war with a much bigger kd / built more barracks and never withdrew while growing 600a/day faster than being oow.

Indeed, if it was simply 'abusing war to grow safely' then the #7 prov Crazy Diamond would probably be deleted too for being in a war that more or less amounts to him farming out a ghetto while enjoying war protection. That's okay though, they don't have a bank, and opportunism is a virtue. That and he's not in a position to challenge anyone for first place...

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Originally Posted by I_am_Spartacus

I can grow just as safely OOW.

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Damn, you're just violating the spirit of rules regardless, Ryan. In or out of war growing safely. Shame on you, deserve to be deleted. Next I'll find out that someone is using thief ops to gain honor safely in war, making it a fake war where he honor whores.

Grow up Nuriho :/

It's all my fault! I am Astarael, monarch of the other ghettokingdom, and you can all blame this on me!
I was the one using this war to farm, I was the one using this war for protection against Force.
While I really wanted my kingdommates to get some nice warexperience, I let them take some beating while I quietly grow for my own personal achievements.
It all started when I was fighting Hall of Force. Of course I didn't stand a chance, getting ganged 1k+ acres a day.
I can retaliate, but only once each day to stay in normal relationship. When my money ran out and barren lands began piling up, I know I couldn't hold on much longer.
So when grande mucca offered me a war, I saw my way out. Even better when he offered a nap between us.
That way I can rebuild in the war. As this is my first time being a king, I don't know anything about agreements.
I had to learn about cease fires the hard way this age. After many broken ones Anri eventually told me about the eoa cease fires.
So I didn't know how an agreement in war would work and wished grande mucca would hold his word to it.
I even asked him if I needed to tell my kingdommates to nap him, just so he wouldn't hit me.
Because he's out of range anyway it wouldn't matter in this war and his reply was also the same: no need.
The war time was set at 72-96 hours and we started hitting forth and back making good way to war.
After I got the warbutton, I double tapped Force once last time and entered war.
At first I was only thinking of rebuilding, because I am pretty out of range.
After setting up some warorders for my kingdommates, I really hoped we can get some warexperience and maybe even win this war.
But after seeing grande mucca quadruple tap someone getting quite some gains, I started to feel greedy.
I never thought people could get so much gains hitting someone so far out of net worth range.
So I also started tapping the chaintarget. I was amazed about the gains, thinking I might even get second place in orc this age. (without exploring or paradising!)
But most important was to get big and get out of range from Force. They were being waved at that moment and I saw my chance to get some safety if I can outgrow them.
But no, I was violating the rules.
I used this war for protection.
I used this war for farming.
And big chance it was Force reporting this war, because of me double tapping them.
So I am truly sorry Ryan. I played a big part causing your deletion.

I have accepted my deletion, but if it's possible, give Ryan his account back. He was just having an honest and fair war.

So Force reported you (assumption), well there's one mystery solved. You might be accepting blame, but that's only because you don't realize this has been standard practice for years. It's not uncommon for large provs to NAP while their cores war, and this was never known as a "fake war".

You guys are full of it.. we really could not care less what you guys do..

that you are dead is a good thing.. how you died you can most likely blame yourself for...

and about reporting you.. I first knew about this when Ryan came crawling asking if we did it..

you have to high thoughts about what your impact on the game..

Astarael - Glad i could help you with sorting out the diplomacy terms with cease fires. Its an unknown world for new monarchs and players.

Btw, i dont think you should have been deleted for this war. It was a decent move many would have done in your situation. Getting deleted for that was not okey imo.

So when grande mucca offered me a war, I saw my way out. Even better when he offered a nap between us.
That way I can rebuild in the war.

but looks like the one that actually did care to report you guys did a good job?

how can this not be a plain fake war for big provinces?

so we have Ryan's war target come out and fully admit he used the war as an escape for protection. Any more questions as to the legitmacy of the war? Ryan got screwed through associations with the wrong people. So again, did he deserve to get deleted? Not really. However, nobody can argue his death cannot be least bit justified. Ryan/future cows/monarchs will now know for next time.

I know a lot of you wanna hate on Bishop, I loathe the guy too. However, for once, stop letting emotions cloud logic like a little *****. This had to happen and it is the correct thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Grow up Nuriho :/

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No, you grow up. I am being deadly serious. This is how the rules are, and if i see a thief using war to whore it up, i will report him for being in a fake war, as that is the definition of fake war now by your own admission Bishop. Same goes for mages and banks. You simply arbitrarily made the rules and enforce them. I will file the reports for you to unleash your deletion happy fingers, you need not think anymore than you currently do (on a scale of 1 to 10, i surmise it's a 0), for I will do the thinking for you and unleash a well written report on my cheaters report to you on how this guy or girl is in a fake war which is an abhorrent use of wars and their kingdom to make a fake war with the sole reason of gaining for themselves.

Just stfu nuriho. You're an embarrassment to the human race.

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Originally Posted by Realest

I know a lot of you wanna hate on Bishop, I loathe the guy too. However, for once, stop letting emotions cloud logic like a little *****. This had to happen and it is the correct thing to do.

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No, it's not the correct thing to do. But I guess it had to happen nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Realest

so we have Ryan's war target come out and fully admit he used the war as an escape for protection. Any more questions as to the legitmacy of the war? Ryan got screwed through associations with the wrong people. So again, did he deserve to get deleted? Not really. However, nobody can argue his death cannot be least bit justified. Ryan/future cows/monarchs will now know for next time.

I know a lot of you wanna hate on Bishop, I loathe the guy too. However, for once, stop letting emotions cloud logic like a little *****. This had to happen and it is the correct thing to do.

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Astarael did admit to using the war largely as an escape, so yeah there should have been some action there. Was Ryan running from anyone or abusing war protection? It certainly doesn't look that way.

I am still not convinced the deletions had to happen, or that they where correct. In a game when you are literally investing hundreds of hours, and suspension is an option, how can you justify deletion for anything short of a malicious act or habitual abuse?

It doesnt matter what Ryan intended. I agree, his main aim was what he described - find a fun war for his kd and he gets cheap easy growth from it with his "war terms". Note that I agree Ryan didn't 'deserve' to be deleted, but its not exactly ridiculous he did. The bottom line is this: Astarael had FW intentions, and thus, his war partner is thereby guilty by association. Is this so hard to grasp?

The severity of the punishment overshadows the degree of guilt here. Had both parties simply been suspended there would little issue.

so now, you're just arguing whether punishment fits the crime, but you agree the principle of the matter is that both parties are guilty of -something-.

Then, that's fine, you have a right to your opinion. However, what Zodzilla thinks doesnt matter, this is the law of this land - you get deleted when you FW. Just like in real life, you have people ranging from life imprisonment to death penalty for heinous crimes. Neither side is right or wrong, and both applications do exist depending on where you live. In this game, the rule is death penalty. Suck it up.

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Originally Posted by Nuriho

No, you grow up. I am being deadly serious. This is how the rules are, and if i see a thief using war to whore it up, i will report him for being in a fake war, as that is the definition of fake war now by your own admission Bishop. Same goes for mages and banks. You simply arbitrarily made the rules and enforce them. I will file the reports for you to unleash your deletion happy fingers, you need not think anymore than you currently do (on a scale of 1 to 10, i surmise it's a 0), for I will do the thinking for you and unleash a well written report on my cheaters report to you on how this guy or girl is in a fake war which is an abhorrent use of wars and their kingdom to make a fake war with the sole reason of gaining for themselves.

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If you abuse support with crap like that i will delete you instead.

That may well be true, but if it is then the public was never made aware. As far as I knew suspension was an option, and since they like to leave their options open, they use silly phrases like 'actioned' and 'punitive measures' regarding FW's. Easier to just say "If we even smell FW intentions we will freaking end you."

Sure, and its a perfectly legitimate argument to say that the wording was unclear and so forth. However, the conclusion doesn't change. There is nothing entirely wrong with Ryan's deletion. I'm glad you aren't as blunt as others in here Zodzilla. I can respect and acknowledge intelligence.

Haha, alright agree to disagree, I can live with that. I'm fueled more by boredom that a real sense of injustice anyway ;)

The problem with wording like "you do something FW-esque and we will end you!!11!1" is that it leaves no room for alternatives. I would argue if the devs wrote it like that, people would be *****ing about why it's so extreme. At least with the ambiguity of "we will action", they have the leeway to go from suspension to deletion based on the context. You and I will never know for sure if they ever considered the lighter side of the scale, but the fact is, a broad and vagueness of "we will take action" leaves them more options at their disposal.

Can't win them all.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

If you abuse support with crap like that i will delete you instead.

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You mean you'll action him right? Wish I could action people for wasting my time...

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Originally Posted by Bishop

If you abuse support with crap like that i will delete you instead.

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It's not abuse if they're in a fake war. You define the fake war, I honestly don't understand why you're saying you will be a hypocrite about the definition of fake wars and the actions you will take against them when I say that I will help you out in your and the server's crusade to rid the world of fake wars, by your definition of fake and war.

"Abuse is the improper usage or treatment for a bad purpose"
There is nothing improper for reporting cheaters, as that's what they are, and there is no bad purpose, it's an unholy crusade to rid the world of cheating. It's what we all fair players want; no cheaters. You're really a child, Bishop, to define in this thread what fake wars are then to tell me you will delete me if I give you work to rid us of people abusing the system and having fake wars, cheating.

The circumstances are irrelevant, what it boils down to is a 2 prov NAP in a war, which is not uncommon, and is not a fake war.

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Originally Posted by DHaran

The circumstances are irrelevant, what it boils down to is a 2 prov NAP in a war, which is not uncommon, and is not a fake war.

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Something about you being green has made you really smart

except the orc ryan fought fully admitted he was ducking with a FW. This makes Ryan an accessory to the crime. It's not about the naps. Use logic, dont be an emotional *****.

Careful there Nuriho, you're getting dangerously close to having your skull actioned in by a shillelagh wielding leprechaun :P

And DHaren Realist is correct insofar as we will never know what actually happened, the full details, what glaring piece of evidence made this decision ineffably simple from Bishop's perspective, the magnitude and source of the supposed bribes, etc... ours is not to reason why, ours is but to play and die.

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Originally Posted by Realest

except the orc ryan fought fully admitted he was ducking with a FW. This makes Ryan an accessory to the crime. It's not about the naps. Use logic, dont be an emotional *****.

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Running to an easier war is not running to a FW. And tone it down or I'll just remove you from this conversation.

i think you need to improve your reading comprehension skills. he clearly said he went to war to avoid problematic confrontations.

<removed>

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Originally Posted by skizzikwok

It's all my fault! I am Astarael, monarch of the other ghettokingdom, and you can all blame this on me!
I was the one using this war to farm, I was the one using this war for protection against Force.
While I really wanted my kingdommates to get some nice warexperience, I let them take some beating while I quietly grow for my own personal achievements.
It all started when I was fighting Hall of Force. Of course I didn't stand a chance, getting ganged 1k+ acres a day.
I can retaliate, but only once each day to stay in normal relationship. When my money ran out and barren lands began piling up, I know I couldn't hold on much longer.
So when grande mucca offered me a war, I saw my way out. Even better when he offered a nap between us.
That way I can rebuild in the war. As this is my first time being a king, I don't know anything about agreements.
I had to learn about cease fires the hard way this age. After many broken ones Anri eventually told me about the eoa cease fires.
So I didn't know how an agreement in war would work and wished grande mucca would hold his word to it.
I even asked him if I needed to tell my kingdommates to nap him, just so he wouldn't hit me.
Because he's out of range anyway it wouldn't matter in this war and his reply was also the same: no need.
The war time was set at 72-96 hours and we started hitting forth and back making good way to war.
After I got the warbutton, I double tapped Force once last time and entered war.
At first I was only thinking of rebuilding, because I am pretty out of range.
After setting up some warorders for my kingdommates, I really hoped we can get some warexperience and maybe even win this war.
But after seeing grande mucca quadruple tap someone getting quite some gains, I started to feel greedy.
I never thought people could get so much gains hitting someone so far out of net worth range.
So I also started tapping the chaintarget. I was amazed about the gains, thinking I might even get second place in orc this age. (without exploring or paradising!)
But most important was to get big and get out of range from Force. They were being waved at that moment and I saw my chance to get some safety if I can outgrow them.
But no, I was violating the rules.
I used this war for protection.
I used this war for farming.
And big chance it was Force reporting this war, because of me double tapping them.
So I am truly sorry Ryan. I played a big part causing your deletion.

I have accepted my deletion, but if it's possible, give Ryan his account back. He was just having an honest and fair war.

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bolded the important parts for the slower people like DHaran and others.

Thanks for bolding.. they was helpful.