Age 54 Potential Changes Rev II

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The Warrior
+1 General
+15% OME in war
Enhanced Conquest range

The Tactician
Gain 50% more Specialist and Building Credits
-15% Attack Time
Accurate Espionage (in war)

The Cleric
- 50% Your Military Casualties (on attack or defense)
Animate Dead spell always active

The War Hero
+50% more bonuses from honor
-50% draft cost
-50% train time

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This is the first time in a while that there are 4 Attacker personalities. Just a couple ages back there were only 2 (War/Tact). Then Cleric was added and now War Hero. The bonus have been shuffled back and forth, but for the first time ever Warrior loses +15% Kills/-15% Losses.

Remove Cleric and buff the Attackers a little bit, trying to make it a warring game after all:

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The Warrior
-15% Your Military Casualties (on attack or defense)
+50% more bonuses from honor
-50% draft cost
-50% train time

The Tactician
Gain 50% more Specialist and Building Credits
-15% Attack Time
-50% Land Losses when Ambushed
Accurate Espionage (in war)

The War Hero
+1 General
+15% OME in war
+15% Enemy Military Casualties (on attack or defense)
Enhanced Conquest range

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Jamaica are you sure you meant +50% enemy casualties? Seems like a lot :P

^ nomnomnom die fearies?

+50 military losses is totally impossible Jamaica. Kingdoms are spending millions of gc to build up an Emerald dragon which only give them +15% military casualty in war. Even if you want Pitfalls on a prov, you got to have an active Elf or Faery in your kd to help you do so. Eventually the Pitfall + the Emerald Dragon can't even give a bonus of over +50% casualty. Giving one personality a total of 50% would make both of them especially the Emerald Dragon a funny existence.

Same as (War Hero) Edited The Warrior. Could you imagine when this personality is used on Dwarfs? Building acres is free, military casualty is half, draft cost is half, your intention to encourage warring kds would most probably be abused. That feels more suit to a perfect exploring race.

The only suggested Tactician would seem a little bit acceptable, still it seems a bit too strong.

Change elf leets to 7/4, also change halfer leets to 6/6.

===Personalities===
Give Sage 1 free book per 5 acres (sorta nerfed compared to this age, that or the old +30% science effects or science discount.)

Give War Hero Free Credits per day amounting to 3-5% of their current acres in war.
[1k prov getting 30-50 creds per tick = 1440-2400 spec creds in 48hrs min time war]
not too shabby, not very overpowered either. nice bonus on top of current creds, stacks nicely with -50% train time.
(Its a war hero right, don't soldiers instinctively want to fight better for the war hero some sort?)
(Also interesting when a few war hero's can kill dragon from free creds and fast training)

Give Cleric an incentive, such that all offensive losses are turned to soldiers in returning army.
(Something like no actual numerical troop losses, an Animate Dead which works offensively.)

===Races===
Human seems tad weak on the elite though its cheaper. How about 6/5 to mirror halfling's 5/6?
even better, give halflings and humans 6/6 and see what happens, since they both seem nerfed for nerfing's sake.

Don't think Humans should get + 50% Spell Damage (Instant Spells).
Off-color, like its a possible permutation thrown in just for its sake.
(Elves should get that, no?)

Reflect magic on Orcs is a tad off color if elves dont have it. Can they both have it, if Orcs absolutely MUST have RM this round?
Make Elves immune to reflect magic or something.
Something like piercing truecast, unblockable by mystic aura so Elf can still pierce Faery but not other way around.

Think Dorfs should get more BE to be on-color, like 20% BE.
Dorfs seem like the traditional A/M race, which i think is on-color.

Give Avians the ability to pierce Clearsight, and cast Clearsight themselves for some thievery grant somesort, since its likely Dorf wpa is harder for avians to get through, for balance.

How about elite conversions for all Undead attacks, say maybe 5% cap. Trads get 5% bonus or something. Pure specs get you another 3% bonus conversion bellcurved proportionately scaled to the amount of army you send. At least there is an incentive for Undead to hit other forms of attacks and not feel stymied just because they aren't making a land hit and have to necessarily grow weaker.

The Merchant
+30% Income
-80% Money Losses on Plunder Attacks /give a real possibility to store gc

Dwarf
+ 20% BE /10% feels like nothing
+ 30% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
Free Building Construction
Can use credits to raze buildings

+ 50% Food consumption
Accelerated Construction not available

Spell book: Quick Feet, Fanaticism, Fools Gold, Clearsight
Elite: 7/3, 750gc, 6.5NW

Faery
+30% damage on spells and ops
+30% WPA and TPA

+10% Population
Offensive Specialist Strength -1

Spellbook: All racial spells
Elite: 3/8, 2000gc, 7.5NW (elite to cost more because of +10 pop +1spec, in range 1200-2000 ,someone else balance this,probably 1500)
:)

Humans
+15% Population (they feel weak with 10%)
+ 50% Thievery Damage (Sabotage Ops)
+ 50% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)

Spellbook: Tree of Gold, Fountain of Knowledge, War Spoils
Elite: 5/5, 500gc, 5.5NW

The Undead
-50% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Successful land attacks convert specialists to elites
Spreads and is immune to The Plague
10% food needed in the form of killed units~ (not serious just funny hint)

- 25% science effectiveness

Spellbook: Greater Protection, Town Watch, Animate Dead, Chastity
Elite: 10/3, 1200gc, 8?NW (not so good perhaps. mis warspoils)

The Warrior
+1 General
(+10% OME in war)
Enhanced Conquest range + not effected by networth ( cq not effected by networth (cq hit calc as equal net hit), war only? )

The War Hero
+50% more bonuses from honor (max honor loss per hit 50 points???) (Just a hint, someone else balance)
-50% draft cost
-50% train time

pls tell why not in case disagreeing

edit ************'
Better faery perhaps
Faery
+30% damage on spells and ops
+30% WPA and TPA

-10% Population
Offensive Specialist Strength -2

Spellbook: All racial spells
Elite: 4/8, 1000gc, 7.5NW (to give some attack ability to counter Offensive Specialist Strength -2)

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Originally Posted by MoreWars

The Merchant
+30% Income
-80% Money Losses on Plunder Attacks

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Might as well make them immune to plunders

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Faery
+30% damage on spells and ops
+30% WPA and TPA

+10% Population
Offensive Specialist Strength -1

Spellbook: All racial spells
Elite: 3/8, 2000gc, 7.5NW

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Fae does not need extra pop and 2K per elite is a joke.

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The War Hero
+50% more bonuses from honor (max honor loss per hit 50 points???)
-50% draft cost
-50% train time

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lol @ max 50 points of honor lost

wow, that is the most retarded set of proposals I have ever seen. I usually try to be positive in my critiques but wow. Are you actually being serious?

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Originally Posted by MoreWars

The Merchant
+30% Income
-80% Money Losses on Plunder Attacks

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-80% is a bit much. Sage had -75% and it's getting a sizable nerf. Considering that money can be freely bounced around via Aid, Merchant is fine as-is.

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Originally Posted by MoreWars

Faery
+30% damage on spells and ops
+30% WPA and TPA

+10% Population
Offensive Specialist Strength -1

Spellbook: All racial spells
Elite: 3/8, 2000gc, 7.5NW

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Ummm.... No. Just no. Beastmasters are already the most expensive Elite in the game and you want to DOUBLE their cost?!? And the last thing Faeries need (with their stats and mods) is INCREASED population.


I've already commented about Humans and Undead.

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Originally Posted by MoreWars

The Warrior
+1 General
+15% OME in war
Enhanced Conquest range + not effected by networth

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What are you smoking? (And where do I get some?)

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Originally Posted by MoreWars

The War Hero
+50% more bonuses from honor (max honor loss per hit 50 points???)
-50% draft cost
-50% train time

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This idea actually has potential. Not saying that it's a GOOD idea, but it has potential.

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Originally Posted by Realest

as usual, these threads are littered with copious amounts of stupid

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^ this. especially after reading MoreWars's post..

Its not good to laugh on those who tries to offer their views. If the suggestions are too imbalance naturally it won't be considered at all, all you need to do is to point out why their proposals are not acceptable.

Often when players made suggestions here they always try to go for a big boost for the races they prefered. Imo that is not going to work. If you want to give them a boost, might as well you start thinking of giving them a reasonable nerf as well.

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Originally Posted by UtopiaKarateKid

Its not good to laugh on those who tries to offer their views. If the suggestions are too imbalance naturally it won't be considered at all, all you need to do is to point out why their proposals are not acceptable.

Often when players made suggestions here they always try to go for a big boost for the races they prefered. Imo that is not going to work. If you want to give them a boost, might as well you start thinking of giving them a reasonable nerf as well.

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I agree, I think its bad to laugh at those who try to offer suggestions.

Withdrawing is still over powered. You've made it so that when a kingdom withdraws the winner gets the extra bonus but you did nothing to punish the loser wants to run away with acres.
Idea: Withdrawing from a war will take 6 hours. You can withdraw after any attack is made but for the 6 hours after you withdraw your kingdom can not attack.
This will allow the enemy to take the acres that he deserves and prevent monarchs from Withdrawing after their kingdoms completes a wave to get away with as many acres as possible.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by UtopiaKarateKid

Its not good to laugh on those who tries to offer their views. If the suggestions are too imbalance naturally it won't be considered at all, all you need to do is to point out why their proposals are not acceptable.

Often when players made suggestions here they always try to go for a big boost for the races they prefered. Imo that is not going to work. If you want to give them a boost, might as well you start thinking of giving them a reasonable nerf as well.

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When people with very limited knowledge of the game make suggestions that appear to have 0 seconds of though behind them, what else would you expect?

Avian is ****ed.
-10% gains and a 7/2 elite. They are going to get ambushed to **** constantly and it is going to hurt them a lot with their already diminished gains.
Orc is also ****ed with a 9/2 elite that costs 850gc. It doesn't make much sense to remove the 50% land protection on ambushes from the game entirely, especially when two races essentially depend on not getting ambushed.

Human is also useless with a 5/5 army.

Bring back Avians being immune to ambush!

That is going overboard, I think.
Just attach -50% Land Lost on Ambush to one of the FOUR attacking personalities.

I'd have liked to see them take some action against bottom feeders... reduce their gains or increase their military losses or something!

That is because you 1) Don't know how game mechanics work and 2) Suck at playing the game in general.

Bottom feeders already have reduced gains. Learn to hit back.

Avian:
does, as commented by many look like an unfavourable pick as of rev 2. Now i find it pretty funny that people try to justify giving them -30% attack times, 8/3 leet, removing -10% gains and returning WS (from rev 1) i feel they could be improved on balance. I don't feel that they were particularly imba this age so i dont see why -30% attack times isn't left as is, they lose the 6 d spec which is 15-20 opa lost compared to this age.

Dwarf:
...what can i say, its not been a good choice for warring since fog was lost, but its starting to come back into favour now i see with everything else being nerfed. Still i think +15 or even 20% BE is not problematic, maybe this could be balaced slightly by maybe only getting half raze credits from attacks? not seen this suggestion before and prevents alot of possibility to just raze entire land after war for free.

Elf:
is naturally going to be used for having +1 mana and 150% wpa, coupled with mystic its the best ms caster out there by far, so naturally having a weaker military still makes it a reasonable pick and certainly will be in plentiful supply so no case for +- either way. (imo its a little weak but i will most likely pick elf anyway so i'd rather not make any suggestions on it as i am biased)

Halfers:
Aggression would make this more viable, but again it will be picked for +1 stealth and 150% tpa.

Humans:
joke race i wouldn't even want to comment on how to improve this. i see it MAYBE being an A/e. toging through war to fund... but then it will just be targeted for either fbs or kidnaps and has no T or M mods so will get torn apart by elves, halfers, faerys and to a lesser extent dorfs. Remove race completely -.- Do not comment that you could find the numbers to be on similar levels with orcs/undeads per acre cause you know that you will be 250+ nwpa as well as i do when an orc would be 190.

Orc's:
are obviously the benchmark for all races every age. This round it looks like the benchmark is a bit high imo. The RM is a serious pain when there are 3 x/m races (fae/dorf/elf) and you have to waste precious mana every login to MV it on a shelled orc. Its not as bad as giving it CS but cs is obviously easier to MV and nses are usually conducted the same tick as chain so only 1 removal of cs is required. tl:dr no RM=good.

Undead:
i see a niche that i would prefer not to share with the community as i prefer to exploit it for my own gains, however if the consensus is they are weak i'm happy to go with it:P Sci penalty is harsh, but undeads cant learn when they're dead right... it makes perfect sense!

Personalities.

Sage
obviously common discussion here. Frankly needed a nerf and it got one, im just unsure if it was enough, as much as i hate typing it. free bpa mechanic and plague protection will be massive to all sage provinces. But i cant figure out a way to further nerf them since they are weaker than last age already.


Rogue
looks like a dead personality for all but halfling a/T's that wish to prop, which makes it in need of a buff. Would not know where to start thou, it seems all thief bonuses have been given out to races that wont be picking rogue.


The Warrior
+1 General
+15% OME in war
Enhanced Conquest range

The Tactician
Gain 50% more Specialist and Building Credits
-15% Attack Time
Accurate Espionage (in war)

The War Hero
-50% honour losses when attacked
-50% draft cost
-33% train time
- 50% Your Military Casualties (on attack or defense)*from cleric

*REMOVAL of cleric persona

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Originally Posted by marksss

I'd have liked to see them take some action against bottom feeders... reduce their gains or increase their military losses or something!

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topfeeders already get better gains than bottom feeders, this mechanic is fine, try it for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Steel

That is because you 1) Don't know how game mechanics work and 2) Suck at playing the game in general.

Bottom feeders already have reduced gains. Learn to hit back.

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1) do math your suggestions are fail.

- human is awesome +10% pop is big. Very flexible fun race.

- avian got over nerfed imo needs a bigger attack time speed bonus. Especially since they have some need to anon. 7-3 and 30% reduced attack time imo.

-orc looks uber strong. How you miss this is beyond me.

-if bringing back ambudh protection imo more sense to give it to a personality...

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Originally Posted by goodz

1) do math your suggestions are fail.

- human is awesome +10% pop is big. Very flexible fun race.

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Explain how humans will be anything other than overinflated funder?

10% bonus max pop means you get 3 extra ppl per acre with a small bit of sci. A orc might have 9 units on offensive vs your 12. 81 raw vs 60. But you can turtle, have tog, and ambush is on this age.

Orc is the strongest race from s brute number perspective. Imo needs a little nerf but human is right in line with undead/dwarf better then current avian. Way bettet then halfling

i see the turtling ability then raise you nw of elite, if you want to even touch an elite you want 1.5:1 ospecs:leets ratio, and even then you're 200 nwpa with poor per nw figures still. tog doesnt help when you have no wpa/tpa mods to protect ur peasants from fbs and naps, ur useless fodder, enjoy being left to rot.

Assume the best case sceneria for human. Sage mid-late age hitting 35 ppa.

Of which youre going to want 7 pezz/a to even think about using that tog.

2 raw wpa and 150% science to have ANY chance at defending against the most incompetent A/m
3 raw tpa 100% sci and 10/15% wt to defend against le thieves, since you will be econ prov they WILL be coming for you, so you can't skimp on them.
probably even 4 raw and 150% sci +15% tds since youve invested so much into defences that you might aswell go that little bit farther.

this leaves you with either 22 or 23 apa.

14-16 ospa 8-11epa

35 dpa=6 lpa home(wages+mp)
80 raw opa (leets+ospecs)
100 mopa leaving 35 dpa home

at 1k acres (for arguments sake)

your nw is:
7k - peasants
64k o specs
50k leets
20k+ thieves+wizzies
20-30k in science (assuming 2-3k bpa)
40k land

199k nw

let me put this into perpective, an elf can pull these numbers with 20+ mwpa and empty youre tog stash before you can use it, and elf doesnt look that good

Human is useless. With a 5/5 army it is in the same position that Halflings and Gnomes used to be in. It will turtle, bottom feed or suicide. Ambush is not a legitimate offensive tactic, it you only get 50% of your land back. I don't remember Gnomes being any good at attacking when they had a 5/5 army and +10% pop.

Obviously Ambush protection should be attached to a personality rather than a race. And Avian getting a 7/3 elite it a good idea, but not coupled with 30% faster attack times. If the elite is improved, dont increase their attack time bonus.

Orc is not super strong. A 9/2 elite that costs 850gc and will get ambushed constantly? I remember Sanc thought that was awesome a few ages back, too. It didn't turn out so well for them. You'd have to anon every hit, so say goodbye to any honor or decent attack times. Otherwise you lose half your gains and have no army left after 24 hours.

I think that halfers are underdeveloped this coming age.

With the removal of -10% pop and aggression, halfers will have trouble finding enough offense to attack provinces their size (or relative size) while holding enough defence so you can thieve in peace.

A kingdom relies on a halfer to be able to break any enemy province with thievery. With the new changes, a halfer will be able to break any province which is not a problem but then what does the halfer do? Offense capabilities are weak, magic is unhindered but un-helped. It just seems like a halfer is now a thief and you can?t do anything about it.

This age ending, I was a halfer T/A and with quick feet i was able to attack smaller provinces then mine twice a day and this was because of the +10% pop. Without the pop bonus I think I will have trouble performing large enough attacks to really help the kingdom in wars without being exposed to being double tapped by the large offense enemy attackers.

Suggestions: any number of these would be great (not all of them)
1) Give an upgrade to pop 5% would be great so this increase can go into offensive specs so halfers can be more effective on the hybrid side.
2) Changing the elites to 6/5 (as suggested above) would be pointless because you would just attack with less units to have the high defence so this would not make a difference. Why not nerf the elites slightly to 6/4 and give +1 def spec bonus. Or a 4/6 elite and a +1 off spec bonus. This would give more offense while keeping defence the same and also let a halfer choose if they want to be heavy attacker or thief. I think the elite nerf would be needed as giving a +1 to spec bonus alone would be too great an advantage.
3) Quick feet back. If you make the halfer have to run a decent percentage of rax's then it will undervalue both offense and thievery further and greatly reduce efficiency.
4) -20% gains on attack but increase the offensive spec by 1. Make it so halfers can attack but will get less out of it.
5) an extra +1 stealth added. (so +2 all up). If you want us as a super thief then give us the stealth to do it.

This is just for halfers as I only know about halfers. I think they are undervalued compared to a lot of races but I don?t think they are super nerfed as others say. I think they just need a top up in the offense area even if nerfed somewhere else.

the above example only leaves you with 45-55 dpa with all leets home, and that gives you no turtle ability at all really, if you want any more of this ability you are further adding 1.5 nwpa for each epa you add and becoming less efficient, 50dpa is about where i value turtling so i didnt add more, but you can choose to if you wish.

@darkphoenix, you can now reach your mtpa target with 2/3 of the thieves as before, if you were running say 4.5 raw before then you only need 3 raw next age. This frees up pop for an extra 10-12 opa, go smash those targets again^^

One comment: I don't like the fact that dwarf has both incredible offensive self spells, is an a/m, and has the +damage. It makes the buffs counterproductive, because if your 2 tapping every 11 hours and need to get quickfeet and fanatacism up both times, and have cs up 24/7 inorder to be using those great spells, then you don't have much room for fb/nado. And if you face some undead then you're really in trouble.

human is only attacker race that can afford sage. And sage is crap imo. Maby remove sci protection completly and add some sci effectievnes.

Orc is OP, like way op , 9 off, elite credits, extra gains, atleast one of them needs to go imo and im not sure if reducing elit from 9 to 8 is enough.Maby take away elite credits, keep gains/9off.

Removing elite credits from Orc is stupid. How the hell will they retrain their ambush losses then?

@crease. Agree that I will need less TPA to break which means i can transfer into OPA but even with this I still think halfers are too weak to hybrid efficiently. 5/6 elites sound great but compared to others out their they are very weak (excluding humans). Taking the figures, offensive troops give you 5 offence max. Defensive troops give you 6 defence max. orc 9-5, elf 6-6, dward 7-5. only hindered classes are fairy 3-8 and human 5-5 and with fairy you dont want to attack so thats all good. I think halfers should just be the same as elves yet one is magic and the other is thievery

halfings can train 100gc soldiers in war that are 1 nw and 2 offense, if you are running low on offense then this is a very simple solution, however no province is supposed to be able to both attack in range perform ops well and expect to not be double tapped by heavy attackers in their nw range. An orc sage/warrior can quite possibly reach 170-180 opa, you have to not send out at all to not be double tapped by this kind of province, but a halfling is NOT supposed to be competitive in 2 aspects of war.

As for being in war, if you are being double tapped by an attacker and there arent 20 more hits coming straight after it then the province that hit you is helping you not hindering you. And if there are 20 more hits coming afterwards then halfings are stupidly resistant to trading acres after being chained and get to turtle and quad tap land def chainees in the other kd.

i played utopia since age 4, i am pretty sure i know how it works!

After reviewing the changes:
Faery, Halfling, and Elf all share TPA/WPA bonuses. This is stupid.
Human, Dwarf and Avian all share op/spell damage bonuses. This is stupid.

Either Human or Dwarf should be modified to be an economic powerhouse.
Faery should have zero rune costs and lose the extra TPA/WPA bonus. They aren't there to run A/T or A/M provs, so they can dedicate more resources to having a higher TPA/WPA.

Sage should keep the 4 bpa bonus and get -10% research costs.
Give -50% losses from ambush attacks to War Hero, remove the draft costs bonus.

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Originally Posted by crease

halfings can train 100gc soldiers in war that are 1 nw and 2 offensekd.

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1.5NW, this works out to be ~0.75opNW, wiki has off points value of 0.8opNW, only a 0.05 difference so is it really worth it for offence? Better for def than off, halfers leets tho are very nice for there dpNW. In def the values listed are 1NW for 1 def point, sols will be 3/4 of the NW for def points (exluding acres, wizzies, thieves which all dilute the ??NW values).




RE:Humans
This isn't in reply to any one person but from what i've read in this whole thread.

Has anyone considered that humans are not meant to be a "normal" race? To me they look like they have the greatest potential to run a/T/M, using forts instead of TG and the 0.5dpNW increase from the leets are acceptable if you dont run a full leet army but only using enough leets to "bottomfeed" or end of chain razes while staying unbreakable. Example of 10dsPA, 4EPA, 4WPA and 4TPA would still give you 5.5ppa.

They also look like dodgy "tanks", many ppl played MMORPGs? Aggro control.
Seeing a provence that has sent out too many troops can lead to them being targeted by kds that chain provences, more so if that provence made a so called bad hit and gained no land (maybe bounced), humans look like the expert race for this, to be precise Human Sage. The chain would pump up the WPA/TPA during the 1st wave which would inadvertanly boost there WPA/TPa and lend strength to there racial bonuses and at the same time allow other kd members to get a productive 1st wave in to set the stage, with the war win rewards I doubt many wars will be min time only and being able to help direct your opponants hits can be a useful thing.


Humans dont really have anything for attacking other than the WS spell, no +1 off spec or offencive leet and as such this doesn't scream out as a attacking race. If anything this race seems more of a oppertunist race, and as such I do feel the only change needed to be ballanced would be to decrese the leet NW to 5NW each.

There is no such thing as having 'the greatest potential to run a/T/M". The proposed changes for human place them in a position very similar to what Gnome was in not long ago - to be an A/T. Or an A/M. Or a T/M. But to be bad at any of those combinations, and be without the option of becoming a competent attacker. A 5/5 army is a horrible gimp.

I would like to see the:
-50% lands lost when ambushed

somewhere

Sages are good as they are

A sage KD that gets a good start at the beginning of the age would be a very tough KD