really? 11 with new bloodlust and fan will be 12.7 and in place of 10% stables u will have 10% tg's that make them even strongerQuote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
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really? 11 with new bloodlust and fan will be 12.7 and in place of 10% stables u will have 10% tg's that make them even strongerQuote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
Actually no, i'm fully aware of that. It was a direct response to the suggestion of "Has anyone seen how OP 9/0 undead specs will be out of protection", in which my response was that avians will be better oop because of leet credits (not to mention bloodlust 10% extra OME).Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
meh, even if they are better than most races oop they will fall behind once everyone catches up also don't under estimate how effective -gains are with their nerfed attack time. UD's are better than any attacking race at any point of the age.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaabu
Good luck having any decent amount of horses oop. After 16h to bring them in, and 8h of filling they will be about 1/5 filled by oop. Now if we are talking about 12-16h AFTER oop, that is a different story, But yea, i stand by my case that avians will have by far the most oop offense if they run pure leets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerviper
If they want to cast BL and fanatics by all mean go pure glass cannon receive extra army deaths and be quad tapped with your lower defence by all means go ahead :) UD has no weakness oop avian does (balance is great). I guess you never speed built buildings in protection before.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiedema
tell me if i'm wrong but when undeads will have most of their army as elites they will have -15% attack gains ... so u really think that -5% on avian will be a problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerviper
BL will give u actually 3.5% bigger losses .. and fan reduce u defense only 3% ...
wtf you talking aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by klaabu
-75% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Spreads and is Immune to The Plague
No Food Required
Attacks convert Offensive Specialists into Elites
Defensive losses automatically convert to soldiers(Permanent Animate Dead)
+3 Offensive Specialist strength
Penalties
Basic Thievery (Intel Operations Only)
No Elite Training
-35% Science Effectiveness
Where is this reduced attack time? UD's will never have full leet army, but they will gain offence forever until chained into oblivion (its easy to counter NS).
how many attackers there are that UD or orc can't quadtap with armies out?
it's called anonymity ... ppl cant ambush u but u have 15% lower gains
if you bushing oop then we should stop talking about UTO tacticsQuote:
Originally Posted by klaabu
depends on the set up; however I rather hit a t/m and spares on an attackers for better leet conversionQuote:
Originally Posted by klaabu
if u will have mostly elite army oop then we can talk againQuote:
Originally Posted by Slayerviper
but yes uf y are going to attack me oop with ud elites then i will bush u for sure and make u cry ...
umm okay UD won't have leets oop till the 2nd hit unless they go WH in which case they still will have a 80% spec army which your better off hitting for land because a bush would cost more >_<Quote:
Originally Posted by klaabu
i will bush undeads not for land but to kill their elites ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerviper
thats fine I'll enjoy the extra land and help bring up the explore pool quicker and I'll have more O by the 2nd wave anyways (-75% losses hitting, leet conversion, BL wiping out your offence with each hit, you don't get credits either). If I were playing next age I sure hope to meet you OOP, you can have your bush :)Quote:
Originally Posted by klaabu
I think we had this 'full elite oop credits avian' before (age ?) and it was a noob trap as they fell behind.
sssshhh this guy obviously needs to handicap him self more than he realizes... I guess we should be a good community and help him out....Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
Guys, take it easy please.
Speed building in protection has halved effectiveness. In practice this means your structure is done in 12h without other modifiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerviper
Extra 4 hours of horses not bad thing pending on what you want to do as a KD oop.
I doubt the cost is worth it.
I'd rather just get more stables or something, don't know.
Just now seeing the revision, I got a few remarks.
Undead - I played Undead this age and it feelt like eating a sandwitch with sand in, or to start a fight with cutting off one of my own limbs, with neither tpa nor science gooing for them they are fine getting an increase in raw power. Have leet conversion and 9/0 off specs and 15/1 elites, but I think it needs a small buff against dragons as 15 points/leet seems way to powerfull to me on overpriced lizzards since they don't even pay for their elites. Also I've noticed that they'll go from crappy ecconomy to quite decent ecconomy as they only train specs maybe their offensive specialists should cost more and elites have a higher upkeep or something. I'd also like the most powerfull elites to have the highest nw, althougth I'm not so sure if elite nw will have any impact when moving more towards land based gains as I understand it.
Avian - Looks much more playable now but attack time reduction is still making for 9 hour attack time in war, elite credits is back yay. I'd trade any of their racial spells to get tw though, they will need it if those +40% birth rate gets their peasant population to high in wars. If I was sure about the new gains formula Avian/Warhero could be a thing, start war on full specs, use credits and conversion and end it on full leets, they seems to be one of the races now whit the best flexibility on sensible personality combos.
Orc - I like the idea of a counter ballance to increased gains and kills, however the increased loses should not be for both offensive and defensive battles as they only kill more on attacks, and +20% gains seems to severe a drawback 10% would be more manageable but remove the thievery drawback and put it at +15% gains and I'd still give Orc/warhero a try. +37,5% gains, and if I adapt a strategy of hitting other orcs on +15% that would be +58,1% gains before stances, + hours and dragons are even counted, at +20% gains it would be + 65% and at +10% 51,25% Kills would be +38% of normal. Even toned down a bit I think the Orc vs Orc senario would be so destructive that you should name one of their units Canibals for that reason.
If it's only on ambushes then all you have to do is anon, so the only way your suggestion would be any sort of real penalty is if orc had no access to anon whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiedema
Yea, which in turn has its own costs (no honour, 4-5 casts of anon so runes/mana, and most importantly, a large gains penalty).Quote:
Originally Posted by Elldallan
So there are pluses and minuses to use it in different situations. That's healthy. I think no access to anon would hurt orc. Maybe undead it could make more sense, but not orc (if my change to their weakness were to be implemented)
Yea, it was a few ages ago and it was human. And they had the strongest OOP :P that is all that was being discussed. Who will have the strongest offense 24h into the game when we first get oop. That answer is almost exclusively avian. Are they good overall? That is a different question. Are they better than undead 12-24h into the age? most definitely not if current changes stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
Doesnt change the original point that was Avian as a race will have the best oop offense of any of the races (and especially compared to undead)
Human: Fine
Orc:
-Remove +20% recourse losses when attacked
-Increase tpa nerf to -25%.
- +15% casualties on DEFENSE (including ambush of course!)
Undead:
-Reduce off spec strength to +2
Avian:
-Remove +1 off spec strength
-2 credits = 1 elite
-Remove -5% combat gains
Dwarf:
-Increase BE to +25%
-Remove +1 off spec strength
-Add Mage's Fury
Halfling:
-Reduce tpa buff to +40%
-Increase BR reduction to -25%
-Remove BE nerf
-Remove MF
-add QF
Faery: Fine
Elf: Fine
Cleric: Fine
Heretic: Fine
Mystic: Fine
Rogue: Fine
Sage: +30% science effects, +35% spawn rate, starts with +50% scientists
Tactician: Fine
Warrior: Fine
War Hero:
-Remove conversion (should be unique UD)
-Add -33% training time
Mechanics change:
-Elites slay at average value: (off + def)/2
Yes no access to anon would hurt Orc, that's the entire point. If you create a significant penalty that is tied to a facet that is easily avoided then you essentially force that to be avoided almost exclusively.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiedema
Anon isn't really a significant penalty for orcs, the gains penalty is negated by their inherent bonus and you can still completely strip a chain target of honour while anoning most of your attacks.
So you essentially leave Orcs with a very strong elite, bonus casualties and no significant penalties. Which would make for an unbalanced race imo, and therefore the penalties either needs to be general or if you tie it to ambush then orc needs to loose anon. You could still choose to gain access to War Spoils, but WS has a much heftier penalty that can't be avoided.
I think Hyrids need to be more viable. I suggest something along the lines of Patriotism also makes draft free and/or training of elites 50% cheaper for Elves DURING WAR. Or make it for Heretics but then make Patriotism harder to cast or call it another spell. Bottom line we need something to reward higher skill players for executing with a hybrid setup and improving sustainability potential during war is a great way to make that happen.
If a unique spell it can be a 1 and done for the training discount so that it requires proper planning with building some soldiers and cash. Just another tool in the shed for Hybrids!
You want to grow the game? Restructure it for fair competition. New players quickly get dissuaded when faced with a predicament where they cant fight back. Example. A 4k acre faery SHOULD NOT be able to take 300 acres from a 2k faery. Those numbers may not be exact as far as gains and im aware that nw is relative, just a quick example. With everyone having different goals for this game, the 'top' shouldnt be allowed to fsu for smaller kd without penalties. If u want to chart, compete against like minded kds. Not these non compete clauses that has multiple 25 prov kd all age cf with each other and ransack at will bulls***. Gains for out of range provinces should get HIGHLY nerfed to put an end to this once and for all. New owners are in a unique predicament to set a new precedence in utopia. Get to it. U will have a few kd upset about it but im sure the rest of the server would appreciate the game not being catered to the few who choose to chart age after age. Hell id bet a pretty penny MOST of the server isnt out to chart. You should take a poll as to what aspects of the game people like and what their goals are. With that data, you can make a executive decision as to what direction to take this game in. As to what the haters may say, using diplo is at the discretion of whos attacking you. If they dnt choose to let up, sitting around gettin hit for a week quickly turns new players off. Getting good is out of the question if you are gettin outplayed by a kd with more provinces.
orc: change +20% enemy military casulties
undead: change elite nw value to 12NW(same as offspec 0.8 per point)
human: add fanaticism
cleric: add townwatch, +40% birth rate, change -40% military casulties
warhero: remove fanaticism, pitfalls and +10% attack gains, add +33% training time
tactician: add +10% attack gains
warrior: add 1 mercenary per 4 troops
mechanics: gain penalties for attacking or opping into smaller or bigger kingdom out of war
Faery hybrid this age was awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenRahl
Elf hybrid last few ages have also been awesome.
Halfer is only race that has sucked at being hybrid
This would make elites worse to send then elf dspecs and ud or halfling ospecs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
Instead of War Hero starting with elites, why not have them start out at Lord/Noble Lady honor instead? It's a small leg up on everyone else but it doesn't unbalance as heavily with some of the elite values out there. Then they can generate honor from a higher point when they attack and still probably won't lose enough to drop back down to Knight/Lady that quickly, unless everyone decides to attack them, which honestly is a player choice not a game mechanic.
Because then war hero KDs will get raped by SKs out of protection
Also to the poster who posted the long post at the end of page 18 gains should be more based on KD size rather than province size based on what you are saying.
And I still stand by my position that hybrids should be given a greater tactical sustain advantage in war.
I'm talking true hybrid attackers btw not OOR turtles
human: merchant/prisoner 6 off points
Avian should swap that ospec +1 to a dspec +1. As it is that spec seems kind of redundant when it's becoming an elite anyway.
Orc should not have such high losses, it's a big nerf but makes Orc weak in the sustain department if warring (and let's face it warring is the game now for 90% of us).
UD is going to be harder than most people make it out to be, not for anyone who can play the game but definitely for newer or less skilled players.
I have no thoughts on TM's at this point until the final changes - nothing there is attractive at all.
Yea I agree to all those points.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblogs
Regarding T/M's though, I think halfer and elf are currently in a good spot.. I think fae is in an awkward place though.
I agree with most of this. The bottom feeding i much worse than the top feeding. In fact, MOST kingdoms in the warring tier have KD policy to NOT hit anyone much bigger than themselves. I also agree that the majority of the game doesnt give a crap about the charts, and as most of this game in the warring tier, the game should be catered to them - not the chart seekers. I also agree that a simple survey could do a lot to make the player base at least feel like their opinion matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berner...
Oh, and outside the warring tier, as in when dealing with "top" kingdoms, diplo almost never works. They're almost always either entitled or complete jerks. I have NEVER had a good experience doing diplo with a top kingdom, but almost ALWAYS have great and down to earth diplo with warring tier kingdoms. That doesnt mean my Diplo skills suck, that just means that what the warring tier actually diplo's and the "top" kingdoms always seem to just bicker over details. "You cant break the CF without giving us a weeks notice, in writing, to both me and my RS, and in our IRC channel." "You offered a CF, but never sent a comprehensive list of terms, so we rejected it because you're clearly wasting our time." In the warring tier, you CF someone, you just never talk to or see them again. It's that simple. In the top of the game, they treat CF's like they're life and death. And the crap the top 10 kingdoms in this game do is what ruins this game. They talk about **** play like it is rampant, when in all reality, it only happens at their level, and usually they're all the ones doing it.
Make the game more playable for the middle tier warring kingdoms - which is 75% of the game.
Also a problem with a lot of top tier players (not all) is that they're massive jerks. The community here has some fantastic people, and some of the worst. I guess it's magnified by how small of a world utopia is, and how intensive a game it can be, but if the game is to grow it can't cater to the top 1%, nor allow it to be a one sided affair. Any actual business model that employed that thinking would fail to turn a profit, and if utopia doesn't supply what the majority want it will bleed and bleed no matter who is in charge. I like the new changes, but it needs to remembered that the vast majority aren't charting.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximII
I mean obviously there cannot be a jerk police, but I think the community as a whole should be more forgiving of new players, or just people's lack of knowledge and should help them up-skill. Half the dam threads here turn into slinging matches between 1 or 2 kds from some perceived deal break or past war that no one has any idea what the hell they are talking about. Just leave that **** at home and help rebuild this game.