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I counter with:Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
10%homes
10%banks
16% rax
16% Tgs
18% GS
10%guilds
5%towers
13% stables
2% dungeons
I am a noob though.
Homes on an UD attacker? increase banks or gs's depending on enemy kd setupQuote:
Originally Posted by Maximo
less so that then op's, you cant run a undead w/out TG. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximo
I counter with variable builds based on
10% Rax
17-23% TG
10*15% Stables
17-23 % GS
12-20% WT
8% guilds
5% towers
2% dungeons
exact built TBD by target/rank in the kd.
Edit
Forts are next to useless on an undead. Undead is designed to run 2x as much offence as defence, so modifying your defence is highly inefficient.
4% dungeons wont be kept full unless you are hitting provs with TW active, so drop to 2.
Rest is fairly expected, although i will maintain that a few hosps will be missed if they are not in place. My personal preference ofcourse and i rarely see people posting undead strats with hosps.
You want TG's and GS instead of forts. 10% barracks is plenty to hit 2x a day in war also.
But if I have forts it's will be tougher to double me making it take longer time to bring me down! Also I already have high OP don't need more.
You always need more offense. :P
Think of it this way.
say you have 10% forts, which increases your DME by 10% (Not sure of the exact numbers, this is just an example). Your D specs would then defend as 4.4 essentially.
Now take 10% TGs, your Elites which normally would attack with 7, are now attacking as a unit with 7.7 offense.
The net difference is .3 better, which is a much better return investment.
Edit
i always run homes on my undead. true story.
i usually do too, banks as well doesnt mean its an optimal war build. Could argue its a good idea if you are in the sweet spot in a kd where you wont get chained or hit by people who were chained.
also @ minty the "goal" opa of any undead should be 100 opa, you want to be able to break an equally sized or slightly bigger than yourself feary. If you cant do that on an undead there no real reason to be playing the race.
title says rate my build but noone rates his build, wat?
i give it a 6/10. i took off 3 points because of the low tpa/wpa, and 1 point because of no TGs.
2/10 because you say war strat.
With 1 tpa and wpa T/Ms will rape your defenses so forts are 18% wasted space. 13% guilds is too much for self spells (5-6 is ok). 10% towers means when other attackers (with 2 tpa) need runes can steal them from you and stables are in general worse than tgs in races that have 7 offense (plus they require you not to miss any tick with army in).
the forts can go into something more useful, to make a stronger attacker. you can tweek your guilds and towers and get around 10% to put into more attacking buildings. id drop the dungeons a percent or two. id try to go with 2 rtpa and 2 rwpa it helps abit there, plus with mods and your WT should have decent protection.
id take a point off from the forts,1 from tpa, 1 from wpa, .5 from tweeking guilds, .5 from tweeking towers, and .2 for the dungeons =P.
5.8/10
a lot of nice advice you can take in here.
There's never a perfect build. Builds are as good as what your Kd mates run. Thats why I make all my guys run same build. Opponent's monarch, and future opponents you can quote me from here, you can just choose your chain targets on us based on incoming land :)
When you run same build, then build is important. No use for you having 20% TG and 100+ opa and the rest of your guys running **** builds. You will be first to go, and then you'll be swimming at the bottom of the food chain.
Assuming its a kd wide undead war build you just wrote here, I will have to give it 2/10.
That having said, last age, my undeads ran (on tacts):
18% homes
18% TG
18% GS
8% Rax
8% Guilds
4% Towers (to cast Town watch, Greater protection, Nature blessing, Inspire army, Animate dead, and love and peace; I usually go into war with a lot of runes from plunders so it is ok. Even if not enough, I will ask for them rather than waste space on towers)
17% WT
7% Stables
2% Dungeons
This age due to changes (tact loses ambush immunity), anon will be needed for spells, so I would up more towers to the build. More raxes since clerics hit slower than tacts.
Simple modification to the above gives me:
17% homes
16-17% TG
17% GS
11% Rax
9% Guilds
5-6% Towers
16% WT
6% Stables
2% Dungeons
Oh and they run Tpa 2.25-2.5 and wpa 1.25-1.5 and about 73% draft
unsure why someone would pick UD/cleric over UD/warrior since you get diminished returns on UD/cleric with the race / personality bonuses stacking.
That being said... I'm not a fan of homes since it just allows you to overpop if you are chained and becomes empty if you are.
20% TG
20% rax
15% GS
10% Guilds
6-7% Towers
18% Stables
7% Libs (having 1k bpa)
3% Dungeons
Seems about right. WT's can be worked in if others in your kd opt for that... either you all run them or you all don't...
Not necessarily if your draft is high enough to prevent that. I usually go 5-5.5 peasant per acre, 5.8 max. And there's TW to slow overpop down. True they can MV, but still 5 ppa is still not so bad for overpop. Homes bring your BR up easily when you slay drake and have spare space, and provide econ. So not totally useless. Plus it gives you stronger army pre-war, and when incoming comes, you can simply not build homes on them and go heavier on TG and GS. So there is the dynamic flexibility there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ofgortens
The debate is whether this econ boost from homes is better than simply running banks on a kd wide scale. I havent tested it myself (on the banks side) but its been working real well for me on the homes side so Im not gonna fix something that isnt broken.
Bit off on a tangent but this comment shows a distinct misunderstanding of how a kd should be built. No disrespect meant since clearly your kd has been doing well, but every prov in a kd should have a differnt build based on the roll they fill in a kd. If every prov has basically the same build then choseing chain targets is easy, and its not based on incoming land.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13nesta13
Using same builds and same amount of troops thieves etc is ideal, otherwise the weakest built that has less chances of recovering is picked. Actually i think it's better to have a bad build for all than several builds around.
Also i think all attackers should start war with 10-15% homes. See that extra pop as specs that can be send for first dragon.
Sounds counter intuitive for me, Persain. why would you say that? When I say same build I didnt mean rigid fixed numbers. I recognise the fact smaller provinces could do with lower WT and GS because of less likelihood to be opened right into war. They can up these buildings with incoming land. But TPA dilutes so quickly, and there are many KDs who leave mid provinces to fatten after 2-3 uniques (with MS on) and then drop them crazy in 1 swoop, so I wouldnt run much lower GS and WT for that matter. maybe 2-4% less on each, in place of offensive buildings. And thats as far as I would agree to that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
If attackers run same build, with what/how would you determine chain targets then? Of course absolute military/size plays a role too. I was just not bothered with stating the obvious.
4/10
Lets start with your second question. If attackers run the same build you determine chain targets by goal. You have the option to take out big offense, split a kd nw, chose based on activity.... they'll all have the same numbers so its literally which prov poses the bigest threat to your kd and i get chose who i dont want big.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13nesta13
Next wildly different builds force the enemy to make the hard choices. lets say my top undead/warrior attacker has 35% GS, 20% hospitals 20% TG, 15 % stables, 10% Rax i put him on 1 tpa, 1.5 wpa 13 leet/acre 8 dspec/acre. What are your options to bring him down? NS/chain. Well hes my top atttacker its gonna take ALOT of ops to lower his off enough to make him stop hiting your t/ms i'll get in 3+ hits before your NS do any major damage. If u let him grow hes already accomplished his goal t/m damage DURING war who cares if u shell him out a little.
On the other hand if i had a larger- mid ranged attacker he'll be a prime target for NS since a few ops and he cant hit your unbreakbles and he becomes an easy shell. i'll probubly run high WT on that guy. maybe start war with 10% GS 20% WT.... use incoming land to up GS a bit as he becomes more and more likely a chain target. Then think about my mid-mid or mid low attackers. Whats the chance your gonna chain them or attempt to split my kds nw. probubly low if i have the right sized bigs. These guys are gonna grow. They should probubly have homes. WT/GS are meh on the to start war. i'd probubly start them with 15% homes. some banks, decent number of towers to feed chains runes. i'd start them with 10% TG too because as war continues i can up the TG on them and effectivly their offense wont shrink.
Its all about forcing your opponents choices. The ^^ assumes they act like every normal kd and chain big off, let the mid grow and then go after mid and if you do that i've countered you with my builds. if you DONT do that i had my kd setup such that im utterly crushing your t/m's, i'm massacring your mid...im overall making it so that your option to go after the people i didnt build to counter proves to be a bonus to me.
Assuming he has army out, 3 provinces with NM and your undead is likely pked in 2 ticks if he is not online. 13 epa and the stables inflate his nw making him ideal chain target.
3/10
Stables do nothing to chain target. More fool your enemy if you are chained for having stables...Quote:
Originally Posted by skoyl12
15% stables (filled with horses, that's 9 horses per acre) give 5.4 nw per acre.
13 epa for undead is 91 opa. If you add horses it's 100 opa
15% tgs is about 11% ome so 91 opa is modded to 101 opa (no extra nw)
tldr
stables are bad choice for races with 7 off elite
the basic assumption is that you are runnign 15-20% TG's on undead in any given situation anyway, even oow pump times.
well i give up can't argue with people that say that undead run tgs even on pump
undeads should be doing learns and plunders while pumping so yea...hes rightQuote:
Originally Posted by skoyl12
Also play undead cleric.
War build:
25% TG
25% Rax
25% GS
10% Lib
15% Stables
With incoming land shift build to.
30% TG/Rax/GS
10% Lib
OME, is usually around 130%. Draft is a little lower to make up for no banks. I end up being chained every war right behind the king.
I have pretty high war science, 500 bpa for war alone. With Lib makes it more, and being chained it shoots though the roof.
Without stables, armies need to be In/Out. Prob lost 5% horses in 7 uniques. Last attack army came home to close to tick to send out again lost 25% horses to the tick.
I have wizards, I pump them in cf. I just deemed the spells useless, they are defensive...nothing to help me attack better. But the percent in land it wastes can be put to better use.
"Actually the strategy is not mine but my monarchs, more or less copy-pasted from pimp." Kingdom generally runs 30 dpa, what I run. Attackers should run similar dpa. Ppl that run more are generally ignored...but they just attack other ppl with lower dpa. War are deemed won/loss with acre changes. More you can get the faster it will end.
"But if I have forts it's will be tougher to double me making it take longer time to bring me down! Also I already have high OP don't need more." That's the wrong mentality. Being chained is a fact of life. 15 ppl chaining you even if you have high D isn't going to matter. Its how fast you can replace it. Always need more O. You don't Ambush, you triple tap.
I chose cleric over warrior because I was it as 1 less building I would have to use(Hospitals). 3 generals is a serious drawback, why I have poured so much into war science, to help make up for that. Warrior no hospitals would lose major troops on defensive attacks. I see it as being able to take it and give it. Even being chained down losses on my offensive troops is very little, which I maintain O as it can't be replaced atm.
I'm on the side that homes have no place in builds as an Attacker. To me it seems easier to overpop, more army is more room needed for them. Being chained hard have to release something or can't get army out with more than 15% overpop.
OOW I run:
25% Rax/GS/Schools
10% Banks
15% Stables
This is to constantly attack for science, and not lose much when I get retal'ed. This also go into war science as gains are really good, even if a orc retals gains are going to be crap.
Kazinji...man, if you get properly chained then you'll be in tatters. No economy to speak of, no guilds or towers to even do the most basic self-spells (I have IA, MP, FL, NB running 24/7, but granted I'm not playing Undead). I appreciate big offense + big gains + lots of attacks will help you out but I mean I can think of a bunch of options to put you in a good position to take a solid chain if we came up against you. You actually look like a pretty good target to chain - high off, quick attacks, poor econ - I'd be pretty drawn to you. GS could be dealt with by Rogues or a string of tornadoes and even though you're a cleric, emerald dragon + PF + a couple of orc hits followed by a reasonably good chain and your def would be torn apart. Just my 2 cents.
In either case, sorry Minty mate but your strat is pretty ****. I gotta agree with the other lads here. I run Dwarf/Cleric and monarch (always chain target) and in war I'm something like 7% farms, 13% banks, 7% guilds, 5% towers, 25% TG, 3% dungeons, 10% stables, 5% libs, and then 25% more that I muck about with depending on who we're fighting (last war I used GS for the first time and I wasn't fussed by them although the KD we fought turned out not to be very good so it wasn't actually the best example). Sometimes I use WT's although I run about 5mtpa which in the ghetto is pretty solid to turn away a good chunk of ops against me. Sometimes some TD's to play A/T, or extra banks, or just whatever. Dealer's choice.
If you read my last post in this thread previous to this you wouldnt need to tell me it's ****. Either way thanks for proving my point.
To the original post: Too low wpa/tpa and too many forts. And to Kazinji: Where are your WT???
Chill, Winston.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13nesta13
Utopia is as such that 1 province with a good build alone cannot function well it has to the whole core. It's very teamwork based in ensuring everyone runs the same builds. Supposing u run 10%rax, the whole kd runs none, but maybe 10% rax is better for a single province but bad for a kd in war because your chains will get out of sync and uwill miss maybe 1-2ticks on opop, then that build becomes bad.
Generally u need to build your province for double taps at the very least if not more. Then sustainability and making use of race potentials. With undeads u could use a few methods depending on personality but the KD strat has to in sync, without it you will have a horrible unsynced war strat which i hope at the very least includes dtap chains.