In response to bickering in this thread:
http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...age-A-m-or-a-M
Anypony is welcome.
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In response to bickering in this thread:
http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...age-A-m-or-a-M
Anypony is welcome.
Since the decrease of spec/elite values it is definitely a "yay" in low amounts (10% tops) together with TG. They do not need to be upkept during war like TGs when acres start swapping hands (as long as you do not slack) and they help more when you get chained (since you will be able to sit every offensive troop on a horse).
Humans/Halfers/Elves/Faery hybrids: yay!
Orcs/Undeads; negotiable, prioritize TGs!
Dwarves; Nay, since you should be building econ buildings to abuse your high BE!
Why not bofe of em
Stables are worth it up to a certain point. Early in the Age they are worth it but as your total offense grows you get better offensive military bonuses by using those acres for Training Grounds.
Avians are the least played race and can't build stables, need I say more?
You should probably have said nothing at all.
TGs first, then stables.
Wtf
Most important factor in determining tg vs stables is number of offensive troops/acre particular province is running. I find it amusing noone ever considers that.
anyway tg>stable most of the time to answer OP
Overbuildings tgs is effective, not the case with stables. I dont know why you guys are even arguing, tgs> stables.
Why do people always frame it as TG vs. Stables? I wonder...
Like i said why not bofe of em.
and your horse count doesnt really fall off if your army in army out, most the time i raze my stables off and add that to the tgs for when the army cometh home with new land
Its as clear as mud ...
Is anyone going to bother calcing the static stable/tg break point? Ideally both for OPA and OPNW. I'm got some connection issues so it won't be me - someone ought to though. Because modifying the break point to account for dynamic considerations does still require a point to modify from. Otherwise it all just starts from hot air, and ain't going anywhere from there.
Ethan you know you are the man for the job ...
very rough math regarding elves:
assume a 75% BE
assume a full elite offense as an elf (5/3s)
1 attack on each of your elf lords so each horse represents a 20% increase in attack power per dude (from 5 up to 6)
you have to run ~14% stables to reliably have a horse for each attacker? (anyone feel free to correct me here)
to get the same 20% increase in OME you have to run about ~23% TGs
so with a 5 power army stables seem at first glance like they give more bang for your buck in terms of % buildings.
edit: this might be a rehash of some of the math in the previous thread.
I am correct.
You don't rebuild stables (or any capacity building) in war. You keep armies in/out, and rebuild other buildings (heck, you can even build TGs if you'd like). Horses can last for days even with all of the stables gone, or after getting deep chained down. TGs drop soon as land comes in, when your BE drops because you're shelled out, or because you got Tornadoed/Arsoned. Stables maintain offense if you can reliably log in regardless, unless you get overpopped and can't send out.
That said, playing with stables and missing your attack time by an hour, or having an attack land at the 59th minute of an hour can be devastating to your offense after all the stables have gone. Has happened to me a couple times. However, it was all still just free offense at that point. Had no building ties, no ties to population, immune to ops, bumped up my NW so I could get bigger gains (since my defense all left anyways, not like I"m holding onto anything).... pretty awesome stuff.
That's complex and will require considerations for EPA, Race, Personality, and honor. Any OME mod will increase stable strength and not increase TG strength.
Any BE mod will increase TG strength and not stable strength. If you want absolutes (one or the other), halflings, humans, elves and faeries will all see greater offense from running pure stables than running pure TGs (up to 18% land; after which you're going from suicidal to super suiciding). Orcs and UDs will see greater returns running pure TGs up to like... 20% or something.
Zobo i am Orc this Age. In early Age 10% Stables benefit me more than 10% Training Grounds. 2000 Ogres = 14,000 offense points. 10% (50) Stables add 3000 points. I dont know exactly what percent bonus 10% Training Grounds give (as i have none yet) but im sure Stables benefit me moreso. 10% Tg approx 12-15% = 2100 points at the most.
Keeping armies in/out is not viable for the vast majority of players and you can never guarantee it will be possible. Horses can be stolen, idk why you think they are immune to ops? Horses add networth, this is a bad thing though you seem to think otherwise for some reason. Stables take a long time to fill and so cannot be rebuilt to good effect in war. These are the reasons you get your TGs in first. TGs are instant effect nw-free offense that mod your entire offensive army. You cap out your tgs, then you add stables.
Read the words. They form sentences.
I understood them, the only issue I have with them is you are not drafted and trained.
I switched to a new Kingdom. I am 36 hours behind everyone else. The numbers don't match my province perfectly either. I see what you mean about waiting for horses to accumulate too. The benefits of hindsight ...
Bishop is pointing out you have 2k leets on 500 acres. Thats why stables work for you, cause of low troops/acre. Do the math for 5k leets on 500 acres and you will see tg‘s are outperforming stables by far.
I dont have anywhere near that many.
I see how TGs would be better for an all elite Orc army. I also trained Trolls.
It doesnt matter if you have some specs.
1% stables gives you flat opa increas regardless of number of troops you have (as long as you have troops to actually mount them).
1% tgs gives opa increase which is function of your existing opa and BE.
Only a province with very low raw opa (like yours) will find stables better. Things complicate a bit when you take into account diminishing returns on tg‘s and the facs stables benefit from existing tg‘s but as a rule of the thumb you need a nice chunk of tg‘s for stables to actually provide opa increase over tg‘s.
My situation disregards your rule of thumb. No offense. Next Age i shall do things differently. Cheers.
Your situation is that you are not drafted and trained and is irrelevant to the general discussion. Special cases like this are not helpful
example
I have 1 troop, my one stable really mods his offense! <-- not useful.
Huh? I wanted to have decent defence OOP, hence the trolls. By reading this thread i see your point. But with my situation having Stables suppplies me with me with more offense in the short term than Training Grounds. Yes TG have a quicker effect than Stables because Stables require time for horses to accumulate. And yes if i drafted and trained naught but Ogres then Training Grounds would be more effective. But i trained Trolls also. I get your point Bishop, put your fangs away. I was leading on from my first posting stating that Stables are worth it at the start of the Age. From what ive learned here it seems Training Grounds would have been better. The benefits of hindsight ...
If you have one troop and one stable, you would get better gains than one troop and one training ground. .. unless you are down to ten acres.
...
Well, roughly ten acres depending on the troop. This thread has been frigging informative!
getting less and less informative tho :/
Do some mathematical scenarios for yourself...
Scenario 1: Take 1000 acre province with 25,000 total population that is drafting 60% military. 15,000 military troops with a 3:2 offense to defense ratio. This would leave room for 9,000 offensive troops. Assuming you only had room for 10% offensive buildings insert your offensive troop values into the calculation and figure out which building has a higher value.
9,000*4(Ospecs)= 36,000 MO
36,000*12%(15% OME*.80 BE)= 4,320 NW free MO
60 Horses per stable * 100 acres= 6,000 additional Raw MO
Scenario 2: Take a 1000 acre province with 25,000 total population that is drafting 60% military. 15,000 military troops with a 2:1 offense to defense ratio. This would leave room for 10,000 offensive troops. Assuming you only had room for 10% offensive buildings insert your offensive troop values into the calculation and figure out which building has a higher value.
10,000*4(Ospecs)= 40,000 MO
40,000*12%(15% OME*.80 BE)= 4,800 NW free MO
60 Horses per stable * 100 acres= 6,000 additional Raw MO
Scenario 3: Take a 1000 acre province with 25,000 total population that is drafting 60% military. 15,000 military troops with a 3:2 Orc/UD Elite to defense ratio. This would leave room for 9,000 Elites with an offensive value of 7. Assuming you only had room for 10% offensive buildings insert your offensive troop values into the calculation and figure out which building has a higher value.
9,000*7(Elite Value)= 63,000 MO
63,000*12%(15% OME*.80 BE)= 7,560 NW free MO
60 Horses per stable * 100 acres= 6,000 additional Raw MO
Conclusion: Any heavy attacker with sense is going to run both buildings at high % for a majority of the age. If you feel the need to debate relative value of each building though, run likely scenarios and compare the two buildings. The lower your raw MO is the higher value Stables have? The higher MO you have the higher value TGs have. If you want 110 OPA you are probably going to run enough horses for 90%+ of your army and 20-25% TG.
Awol, Im pretty sure that as a capacity building, stables output is what effected by BE, but not total capacity. IE, no matter whether you have 50 BE or 120 BE, it will still hold 60 horses. Am I mistaken? The BE only effects how many horses per tick are trained.
lmtdconv92 you're correct.
Stables arent effected. Im learning alot though. I should be studying physics but ...
study physics its so much more interesting than this drivel about stables. Stables are easy run enough to cover just under your offensive units, then put the rest in tg. Once u start waring lose stables build TG. doesnt matter if u dedicate 10% of your land to stables/tg for 30%, run the stables first and let them phase out. making the highest numbers is only important for 2-3 attackers per kd, rest of the time u want sustainability lower tg=>higher tg does that the best.