alliances, FW's, raze kills and other stuff

in an attempt to save CW's thread am moving this here

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Hmmm, I agree that with pointing (very basicly) the points which I would like to be changed, I "enlarge" this topic...

But it is quite difficult to state whether one thinks if nothing, something or a lot of things have to be changed without any hint about what basicly.

And since I and Greenie are talking off topic already, I will answer his questions about my earlier post.

Q1 What's wrong with fake Wars? - Give another reason to disband Absalom and Hall.
A. The problem with fake wars is that they aren't wars... They are fake.
As a matter of fact they are used to get advantages, like additionnal outside protection, etc. You know that as well, or maybe even better than I do.
But if you want another reason, here we go...
Earlier this age I got on my province:
- An intell gathering of Trinity (shadowlight revealed),
- Within the hour an incoming trad march of Equilibrium (which I retalled),
- An intell agthering from Sanctuary (shadowlight revealed),
- Just before my retalling armies returned, a Trad March from Trinity,
- An intell gathering of Equilibrium during my next login.
Unlike other alliances, Absalom and Hall are offensive alliances. They play this game with teams of 150 players. While the rest plays with potentially 25.
That's why I want those Absalom and Hall kd's disbanded.

Q2. Why make raze-kill more difficult
A. Because it is way to easy now. It ain't even a challenge. And it limits wars this age to basicly raze attacking the others into or under the ground. Wars (real wars) never were so boring as now.

Q3. Difficult to assess if things are working properly, without having players ingame.
A. It ain't difficult at all. Firstly, there are enough bug-reports which explain the ongoing probs in Beta game. Moreover Genesis is starting before WoL as well.
So in a nutshell: Start WoL only if all bugs are taken care off, on Beta and Genesis AND when one has a solution on how moving the entire kd's to the new server.

BTW. I think Q3 is prettty "on topic". It isn't because someone with another point of view shows up, that one is suddenly "off topic".

Cheers,

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still dont see why we should ban FW's
for at least 72 hours, im stuck in limbo where i cant get science, lose honor, cant grow, but am protected from out side hits...

as for the ABS activity, shadowlight only gets the FIRST op after you cast it... and it sounds like you're a big prov in a smaller kd, which instantly means more interest from bigger kd's

Raze wars well, i can tell you that it made my kd's life much more interesting, who got to kill the other provs, trying to stat alive etc, we've had great fun, even started up counters for who has been killed/has killed the most =)

You can't stop alliances from forming, but they shouldn't be encouraged. Basically, as long as they play by the rules, ignore them.

Razing for acres is bad, because it makes growth in war impossible, and turns them into slugfests about who can destroy the other side first. It's such an effective weapon, you don't need to use any others.
Also, NO ONE likes catching up to 2 months' worth of science, or getting their 4 raw WPA back.

Fakewars are part of the current system, and until we get a better system, they'll always be there - whether you like them or not.
I think they're a waste of time, and very boring, but that's me. Most will say they're a necessary evil.

razes make war work

Razes should be allowed.

If you don't like them, only war kingdoms who will agree to your ghetto-ass war terms.

weaken razes in war by 2/3, Disallowing it is dumb, so is making it too strong. When Im winning wars while being smaller after war than before it, Its too strong.

Trying to eliminate alliances would hurt the game and be impossible anyhow. Trying to disband just one Type of alliance wont work either, keep dreaming.

Raze is bad, and makes wars even more rare than they already are.

I don't have trouble getting war. raze just makes it harder to grow in wars, if they just weaken it, the problems with it weaken too.

stop sucking so hard and you wont have a problem with raze.

I don't see how 'not sucking' somehow makes it more fun for 40% of a kingdom to play catch-up with the remaining 60%'s science and wizards, nor do I see how 'not sucking' would make wars profitable when the end-all, be-all attack is one that completely destroys any prospect of growth.

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Originally Posted by VT2

Also, NO ONE likes catching up to 2 months' worth of science, or getting their 4 raw WPA back.

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Not true. One of players was rk'd earlier in the age, and he is back up to our size with 6 raw WPA and decent sci. It is all about the strength of the player and planning :)

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Originally posted by Greenie:
still dont see why we should ban FW's
for at least 72 hours, im stuck in limbo where i cant get science, lose honor, cant grow, but am protected from out side hits...

as for the ABS activity, shadowlight only gets the FIRST op after you cast it... and it sounds like you're a big prov in a smaller kd, which instantly means more interest from bigger kd's

Raze wars well, i can tell you that it made my kd's life much more interesting, who got to kill the other provs, trying to stat alive etc, we've had great fun, even started up counters for who has been killed/has killed the most =)

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I see your point on FW, although you are not completly correct. I don't see why one can not get Sci during a FW...

After our second war, I became a big province in a smaller kd indeed.
I have no problem with being hit by Abs or someone else. (If one doesn't like to get hit, he should play another game).
Where I blame Abs is the fact they act as a super-kd of 150 provs. Being intelled, trad marched, intelled, trad marched by different provinces of the same kd is no prob to me. Where it becomes unfair is being intelled by f.e. someone of Dragons, followed within minutes by an attack by Equilibrium-lad, a new intell (SoM) from Rage, and then an attack from Sanctuary guy, etc etc...
The whole sequal happened in only 16-18 hours, and as such was most probably coordinated.

We have different point of views on the raze issue. I don't want raze attacks banned, or going only after builds like before. But they should be softened (f.e. make them NW-related like trad, massacre, plunder or any other thievery and magic operation).
You see it as a challenge and fun trying to survive, and I agree that is a challenge and fun for experienced players. But on the other hand it isn't a challenge to PK-raze somebody. When the oponent has you on top of targetlist, there ain't anything you can do about it. Especially if they can double, triple or quadriple raze you after a while... It's then morely a matter of generals, than miltary strength.



@ Pillz
Your quotes:

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stop sucking so hard and you wont have a problem with raze.

Razes should be allowed.
If you don't like them, only war kingdoms who will agree to your ghetto-ass war terms.

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Very good arguments, dude. I am really impressed.
Recommend you tough to make sure you know who you talk to, before calling them a "ghetto ass".
No further comment.

@ Realest:

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razes make war work

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What you mean? Wars in those 41 ages before didn't work?

"Very good arguments, dude. I am really impressed.
Recommend you tough to make sure you know who you talk to, before calling them a "ghetto ass"."

I am talking to Syele of ZEN and VT2 of ghettoland... I don't see your point.

And I really don't see why I must provide arguments to counter their cryings about raze being evil. "boo hoo, i got raze killed, i lost my science". My kingdom had 14-15 provs killed in 5 days a couple ages ago, we've had plenty of provinces raze killed in war before it was initially removed aswell.

We arent crying, are we? So why should twiddle dee and twiddle dumbass start crying? if they are getting provinces killed and dont like it, they can always withdraw from their war =) theyve obviously lost at that point. they are just crying because they can not play the game.

@ Pillz,

You impress me again... And I still miss your arguments why raze-PK should stay so easy to achieve...

As for the "crying" of "****head", "twiddle dee" and "twiddle dumbass".
Untill further notice they are part of the Utopian community as much as you are. That's why they have the right to post here.

FYI. Untill you come up with something decent, you don't have to await further replies from my side to your proza.
I hope you understand.

Okay, how about you go search AR, Utimes and the rest of Jolt for my well structured posts on the issue and come back to me then.

This issue of raze killing and razing has not stopped once since it was removed by Mehul, and after 2+ years of this "bring it back, take it away" crap I'm starting to get tired of repeating myself.

Raze killing is NOT easy to achieve in a ghetto enviroment unless the kingdom you're warring has already lost the war completely.

Raze killing does NOT put the dead provinces at a great disadvantage. Boohoo they lost some science and wizards - It is not the end of the world.

Raze does not prevent you from growing in war. While it is correct that raze destroys acres, if there is an actual winner to a war they will almost certainly come out with positive acreage.

Before Mehul removed raze, it was used FAR more heavily in wars - After warring so long without it, most kingdoms will still perfer to use traditional marches. If a province is raze killable it means it was pretty much ruined in the first place.

After a certain amount of hits, raze destroys only 15 acres. If you are telling me it is "too easily to pk provinces" with 15 acre hits, you're either warring completely inept opponents or are completely inept yourself. It is certainly not HARD to kill a province, but unless the majority of your kingdom can multi-tap them during the war, the chained province won't get raze killed. And if they ARE mutli-tapable, why shouldn't they be killed?

Come back with your own post defending your stance and maybe you'll recieve something worthwhile from me, however if your last two posts are any indication of your capability to communicate, I don't expect very much.

It's like how the top in Smash brothers doesn't let you play with items, only lets you use three characters, and only ever selects final destination as their map.

They're not elite - they're tourneyfags.

It's in their best interest to make sure they maintain all the 'I win'-buttons. Once they're stripped of those, they fail to impress even casual players, despite their massive abuse of bugs, which is really little more than outright cheating.