humans ns or prop?

[Persain]

this is correct. Prop has it's niche, and it's not as clear cut as it seems. Saying NS > Prop -ALL- the time is like saying Ruby > Gold/Sapph/Em -ALL- the time, when that's simply not true.

Sorry if i wasnt clear the original post was asking "which hurts the other province more- human prop (no max, but very random) or ns" and the answer to that is you hurt the enemy more using ns unless your goal is to take honor (ie hurt his honor) or hes an A/M and u wanted to hurt both troops and wizzards given the test data i had.

Sure propeganda has its uses but going strait damage to the target ns wins, again from the 200+ ops of data i looked at.

[KuhaN]

Kuhan; The chance of propping thieves is 20% and well known to most of the community; perhaps not to you. There is no such thing as randomness over time for an op, it has a distribution around a certain % with a certain deviation. I try not to judge people I don't know, but your above post demonstrates a lack of understanding of game mechanics and as such you should probably sound a bit more humble and be open to learn new things. Using completely irrelevant examples (e.g. 50 and 350 would both be awesome if the prov had 360 thieves in total) to try to get your point across will not get you credit.

That said, I agree NS is the safer choice and unless you know what you're doing, stick to it.

Ok so answer my question. Youre going to prop a prov for only a 20% chance to prop his thieves?Yes theyre usually better for specs and thieves, but when you get prop for wizard, elite, and soldier the gains are not worth the stealth.

Sure prop is nice when their army is home and they have a well balanced army, but in my experience NS is still better.

I guess my time and experience playing rogue, and trying out props + ns over the years are irrelevant to you. Your kd mates skewed data are more relevant amirite? Or i guess im too stupid to realize basic game mechanics of simple ops after playing obsessively, or casually, for 10 years.

If you dont agree then thats fine, id much rather prefer people propping me over nsing neways lol.

Continue.

[Topsy]

I'd rather nm for getting rid of tpa, but Kuhan, as you said you've been playing halfer and not human. So with the 5-6 persian was mentioning, that's equivalent to 7-8.4. If you tried it out a lot with that rawtpa, and they had no WT and you were close on nw and were still doing less damage to troops on average than with ns then that is suprising. Relative NW seems to be the biggest difference maker with prop damage and ns, so maybe you were normally propping the peeps with the highest goodies, but who were actually decently larger than you in nw?

The one thing i'm still working on(and anyone who has a lot of ops could help with) is the whole 1/5 thing, which I am almost certain is innacurate.
Also, what is the actual damage from ns?

[citadela01]

propin thieves is sidefect not goal, a bit extra that makes it worth it in that particular situation, and I can vauch tpa gains are massive % wise when compared to troops/wizzies.

I sited fae/rogue in war we just had and used prop on halfer a/t we were shelling, not round the clock but did 2 nice runs after he landed few hits and we let him keep it. Opened with fb run to kill econ and after 3 days of MS 24/7 and him not training almost anything closed the deal with 2 halfdecent prop runs. Gained .5 tpa on both runs and even tho troop wise kills were nowhere NS it was still worth it. Completelly killed his thieving leaving him at ~0.7 tpa raw in the end and unable to send out w/o geting raped. He was ub w/o tpa, wpa, econ or troops to atack. Not a bad way to disable province w/o using up single unique on him.

[Realest]

i would contend a concerted propaganda run does more damage than a concerted NS run with the same amount of ops by the same number of people.

[KuhaN]

Interesting. Id like to see some accurate data on this.

Perhaps i was doing something wrong when propping then rofl.

[Red]

Or i guess im too stupid to realize basic game mechanics of simple ops after playing obsessively, or casually, for 10 years.

Continue.

On that part, it seems you're correct if you can't see that it depends on the situation.
_____________________________

I'll explain it a little:
Say you have 3 who can or NS or Prop.

1) Go only for NS => 3 can do these ops

2) Go prop with 20% chance to take out thieves. You will also take out troops and wizzards.
After these props suddenly 4 more people can NS
=> More ppl can NS, so bigger effect
=> With propping you also take out some troops

[Humanoize]

I agree with Elurin on the strengths of propaganda in making a province accessible for more players to NS. I m running Elf A/m atm. because my raw wpa isnt very high yet I went with 3 raw tpa early in the age. We faced a kingdom with 4 or 5 faery rogues, my tpa got shattered by mb 20 ops of propaganda, my wpa dropped significant and I lost a large amount of defspecs. I was open to be ravaged by their a/t's and chained afterwards.

If the question is if its suitable for human/rogues I have to say it depends on how you want to run a human/rogue province. At the first glimp propaganda sounds very suitable for humans because prop has a very high cap. The +40% damage on sabotage ops is a very nice perk then. Drawback though is, that the raw tpa needs to be very high for nice damage on propaganda. It limits the human very much in having a decent OPA. So the questions is what do you want to run? A/t or a/T.

Hu/Ro A/t will do overall less damage when propping and succesrate will be lower compared to an Hu/Ro a/T. Nightstrike will be more damaging when it comes to dropping def/off.

Hu/Ro a/T can do more overall damage with propaganda compared to NS, but as drawback you have to accept that most of the attacker potential will be eliminated. (halfling/rogue will be able to run same tpa + higher mod off).

So in my oppinion there is no answer to the question "what is better? NS or prop"? It all depends on how you want to run your province. Both can be better at some point.

[Humanoize]

I also want to point out that when having a large raw tpa, prop is a good way to hurt an A/m. dropping tpa/wpa/def (60% chance) is very nice for much damage.

[KuhaN]

On that part, it seems you're correct if you can't see that it depends on the situation.
_____________________________

I'll explain it a little:
Say you have 3 who can or NS or Prop.

1) Go only for NS => 3 can do these ops

2) Go prop with 20% chance to take out thieves. You will also take out troops and wizzards.
After these props suddenly 4 more people can NS
=> More ppl can NS, so bigger effect
=> With propping you also take out some troops

This will not work in ghettos as it requires good coordination. It will also not work in mid kd wars as your opponent is stupid if theyre not running WTs. But, congrats, i guess it works like a charm if your competition blows (as does anything).

Funny, everybodys going to be doing silly props because of this thread, saD.

Everytime somebody props me (while i have wts) and takes anything but dspecs ill lol and think of this thread. Please prop me before doing chains.

[Persain]

I also want to point out that when having a large raw tpa, prop is a good way to hurt an A/m. dropping tpa/wpa/def (60% chance) is very nice for much damage.

thats what i said above...
i'd love to be able to either get the formula or actually get enough data. i will point out that i have 1 pm in irc of prop
guy did 1 ns for me than the rest was a pop on an undead full army in. this may have been the prop run that wasnt at 2k acres.

Early indications show that our operation was a success. Our thieves assassinated 590 enemy troops.
We have converted 88 Ghouls from the enemy to our army.
We have converted 1 Ghoul from the enemy to our army.
We have converted 712 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 317 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 119 thieves from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 22 wizards from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 57 wizards from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 416 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army
We have converted 48 wizards from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 738 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 28 soldiers from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 143 thieves from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 49 Ghouls from the enemy to our army.
We have converted 49 thieves from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 5 wizards from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 39 thieves from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 427 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 593 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 5 wizards from the enemy to our guild.


Bit of data for you.

[KuhaN]

thats what i said above...
i'd love to be able to either get the formula or actually get enough data. i will point out that i have 1 pm in irc of prop
guy did 1 ns for me than the rest was a pop on an undead full army in. this may have been the prop run that wasnt at 2k acres.

Early indications show that our operation was a success. Our thieves assassinated 590 enemy troops.
We have converted 88 Ghouls from the enemy to our army.
We have converted 1 Ghoul from the enemy to our army.
We have converted 712 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 317 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 119 thieves from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 22 wizards from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 57 wizards from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 416 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army
We have converted 48 wizards from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 738 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 28 soldiers from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 143 thieves from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 49 Ghouls from the enemy to our army.
We have converted 49 thieves from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 5 wizards from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 39 thieves from the enemy to our guild.
We have converted 427 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 593 of the enemy's specialist troops to our army.
We have converted 5 wizards from the enemy to our guild.


Bit of data for you.

NS is clearly better, and this shows what ive been saying in this thread the entire time. People are blinded by the spec gains, and dont realize that they couldve killed 2-3x more def doing nightstrikes.

[Topsy]

that's not data, because it doesn't have any of the context. NW range, numbers in stacks, raw tpa, prevalance of WT.

[Persain]

NS is clearly better, and this shows what ive been saying in this thread the entire time. People are blinded by the spec gains, and dont realize that they couldve killed 2-3x more def doing nightstrikes.

yup like i said on average u dont do as much damage to someone like a undead strait attacker. and it barely evens out if u are going against a/m due to wizzard damage.

that's not data, because it doesn't have any of the context. NW range, numbers in stacks, raw tpa, prevalance of WT.

its all i still have sory, the entire pm didnt get stored in my irc logs for some reason i only got the first ops, i know none of my data was off nw range and 5-6 raw tpa. gives a bit of a comparison between ns and prop at least.

NS is clearly better, and this shows what ive been saying in this thread the entire time. People are blinded by the spec gains, and dont realize that they couldve killed 2-3x more def doing nightstrikes.

[KuhaN]

that's not data, because it doesn't have any of the context. NW range, numbers in stacks, raw tpa, prevalance of WT.

Clearly this guy is similar nw, has low wts or none, and has low tpa. You dont need this information u are asking for.

Wizard/sold/elite gains will always blow, and are irrelevant prior to chaining. And plz tell me why you would ever prop someone unless ur chaining afterwards? The only situation is when u have already won.