AMA vs sanct round 2

[Elf]

i guess telling elf to ops/steal from sanc during the war was hardy intentional :)

:-|

I do as i choose, ive never spoken to anybody in Mothers Advice. I never opped into their War. I have never stolen gold coins from abs (my tpa is too low unfortunately).

Why do you talk bullocks?

[jdorje]

I would say that it is officially hostile if the kd doing the noticing is an alliance mate.

I presume by "it" you mean robbing gold from a 0-thief province. So you would say that Mom already gb'd Havoc via having multiple of their allies rob them at the same time? Or does your logic only apply when it's your own allies getting the bad end of the stick?

[Elit]

I presume by "it" you mean robbing gold from a 0-thief province. So you would say that Mom already gb'd Havoc via having multiple of their allies rob them at the same time? Or does your logic only apply when it's your own allies getting the bad end of the stick?

If we wanted to target share havoc its wont be in forum. Much more easy is to make it in irc. Our question was reasonable and legit accusing Sanctuary in intra alliance farming and you prove it with make farming after havoc drop CF.

[Elit]

Because you said so in the second post of the thread.

Unless you consider stealing money as being officially hostile with a kd, which I don't, but I do agree it's a lame move.

When your 1st move after out from your post war is to rob kd you just war its clear "keep it hostile".
Sure its lame move, but they dont have other choice after "best" abs kd was farmed so brutal in clean war.

[Palem]

c-c-c-combo breaker?
Stop multiposting please lol

edit:
ninja'd :(

[Soul_Hunter]

For me the problem is not robbing the gold, before we get notice. The problem is that Sanctuary and everyone else knew Havoc are going to notice us right after we get oow. And still they robbed us. For me any other moment of the age that would be "ok we were dumb enough to do havoc's mistake and lose gold". But knowing that we are getting noticed and to add that, by an alliance mate, shows only reasonable intention - weaken AMA before the war with Havoc. All other reasons posted are good excuses, and I would have been ok with them if it was not that timing. Let's see if Havoc starts hitting into out new hostile and tries to defend it with reason...

[ZodZilla]

It's also a little silly to compare the 'targetshare' of Havoc cows during a non-conflict pump (which you also took advantage of, shamelessly) to the active and premeditated robbing of a KD you know is preparing to war your ally.

[goodz]

I dropped CF because you asked me too. I asked you if you wanted me too. Sanc did rob some GC from us and our KD told you it happened and that we did not authorise it (that is likely the only reason you know it happened). It was not much gold something like 28m Considering we just lost 50m+ from you leaking our intel on server. We saw you come OOW with 0 thieves on a cow and 250m gc and strongly considered sending a taunt etc. but then thought we would just send notice and wait. Apparently sanc robbed you of 100m gc. Before/After we hostiled im unsure.

My internet went out right when I sent notice apparently. Also just taking intel we got tons of oops errors. Is strange since havent had issue all age and sanc mentioned they got tons when opping you when you waved them or something. But I am going to assume is just something buggy with server! Or is CGG back! :P

But in seriousness I told you multiple times before we noticed that we were noticing you ASAP. First when you lamely hit an unbreakable we pumped offense to open up. He hit us and you retaliated him immediately 2x. Stating that you saw us break him so you were watching our news to see him retal so you could hit him. Personally I find that quite lame. I asked acres back you said no I said im noticing you YR8. Then you leak my intel, I tell you give me back 50m gc you said no. I said I am noticing you YR8. EOW came I took your intel, cello messaged me. I told him we are taking it because we will be noticing you. NO one complained about this the entire time. So I don't see why it is surprising we noticed you.

As for allies its not like absalom is the only alliance. We just tag. AMA as far as I can tell is allied with Simians/Ghetto cats?/beastblood/ex nihilo? I was told at start of age it was beastblood/simians/AMA/ex nihilo/bio? but not sure who is actually helping with that and who is just rumour. We were waved early by simians who stated they did it to help AMA for example. That is more coordinated effort to delay KD's then any abs did this age. I assume beastblood was likely asked to delay rage also. We just won both wars so now we are biggerish still. Anywho I have done my best to be fair all age. I think absalom in my first age here in general goes over the top to promote fairness. If I was solo I would have nap broke AMA ages ago for intel leaking me! But I in past have generally played a bit loose.

[Elldallan]

I said I am noticing you YR8. EOW came I took your intel, cello messaged me. I told him we are taking it because we will be noticing you. NO one complained about this the entire time. So I don't see why it is surprising we noticed you.

If the CF expired YR8 I don't think the notice comes as a suprise to anyone, what is suprising is that sanct started to op MA right out of EOWCF according to elit, that is a clear intention to continue hostile activities.
Sanct can't possibly have been unaware that Havoc would notice and being in the same alliance and all it's a pretty safe assumption to say that Havoc knew what sanct was up to.
If your cf agreement with MA says anything about not noticing during EOWCF or hostilities then you should have made sure your alliance mate Sanct stay away from MA, if they intended to continue hostilities they would have told you so the only assumption one can make is that you intend do double hostile MA which is an utterly lame move, much more so than any target stealing could possibly ever be.

A technicality, MA didn't necessarily have to be watching you, they could just has easily have been watching the guy you accuse them of farming, targets are relatively scarce and any big target loosing land and/or nw is bound to be noticed.

[goodz]

If the CF expired YR8 I don't think the notice comes as a suprise to anyone, what is suprising is that sanct started to op MA right out of EOWCF according to elit, that is a clear intention to continue hostile activities.
Sanct can't possibly have been unaware that Havoc would notice and being in the same alliance and all it's a pretty safe assumption to say that Havoc knew what sanct was up to.
If your cf agreement with MA says anything about not noticing during EOWCF or hostilities then you should have made sure your alliance mate Sanct stay away from MA, if they intended to continue hostilities they would have told you so the only assumption one can make is that you intend do double hostile MA which is an utterly lame move, much more so than any target stealing could possibly ever be.

A technicality, MA didn't necessarily have to be watching you, they could just has easily have been watching the guy you accuse them of farming, targets are relatively scarce and any big target loosing land and/or nw is bound to be noticed.

I fully believe they decided not to CF sanctuary at any point because they intended to go for them after eow rather then go for us. Although I have no way to prove. Their alllie (although perhaps not formal but pre age nap) robs us constantly. We do complain because it is lame. But elit himself said robbing is not a hostile action.

I asked elit to go try to cf them and he waved them instead. I do believe they had no intent of cfing them. I see no where in the clause that I have to wait until they re CF. In our week 4 cf he said that after we came to terms. It was never accepted. In our YR8 re CF it was never even mentioned. the only line in diplo was:

[17:42] <Elit> you cant give us notice if we got/give alredy notice from another abs/hoh kd before hostile/war/post war end

we gave them notice when hostile/war/post war ended.

[ZodZilla]

I fully believe they decided not to CF sanctuary at any point because they intended to go for them after eow rather then go for us. Although I have no way to prove. Their alllie (although perhaps not formal but pre age nap) robs us constantly. We do complain because it is lame. But elit himself said robbing is not a hostile action.

He isn't claiming the robbing was a hostile act (although under the circumstances it was clearly a powerplay move, which may be considered inherently hostile), but that relations between the 2 KD's (sanc and ma) clearly haven't closed, and your CF agreement has specific requirements in that regard. And whatever your beliefs are, the reality is that it was Sanctuary's decision to re-initiate.

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for you and Havoc... you have been waiting patiently a long time. Would that I could, I'd bake you a cake.

Edit: If you knew the cf was not resolved post war, and that Sanc had intentions to rob MA, how can you 'fully believe' that was MA's secret evil plan? Was a cf offer rejected by MA? And just because someone isn't your ally, it doesn't make them your enemies ally. Coming from someone in the only real alliance around that could come off a bit absolutely retarded.

[goodz]

He isn't claiming the robbing was a hostile act (although under the circumstances it was clearly a powerplay move, which may be considered inherently hostile), but that relations between the 2 KD's (sanc and ma) clearly haven't closed, and your CF agreement has specific requirements in that regard. And whatever your beliefs are, the reality is that it was Sanctuary's decision to re-initiate.

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for you and Havoc... you have been waiting patiently a long time. Would that I could, I'd bake you a cake.

Edit: If you knew the cf was not resolved post war, and that Sanc had intentions to rob MA, how can you 'fully believe' that was MA's secret evil plan? Was a cf offer rejected by MA? And just because someone isn't your ally, it doesn't make them your enemies ally. Coming from someone in the only real alliance around that could come off a bit absolutely retarded.

I told them to re CF sanc and I would restart 48 from then. They did not make any attempt to CF them. They did threaten some sort of alliance action...

[Elit]

I fully believe they decided not to CF sanctuary at any point because they intended to go for them after eow rather then go for us. Although I have no way to prove. Their alllie (although perhaps not formal but pre age nap) robs us constantly. We do complain because it is lame. But elit himself said robbing is not a hostile action.

I have nap only with rage, so pre-age nap claim is wrong.
Rob is hostile action and i never told other. I dont controll server and cant tell one or another kd/prov to rob or not rob you. There is main difference in this situations. Every one know we are going to hostile/war soon and your ally decide to rob us, send dragon now for give you advantage. Giving notice few min before/after they start it dont change fact we are in hostile. Refusing reset notice just show you planed it together.

[Elldallan]

I fully believe they decided not to CF sanctuary at any point because they intended to go for them after eow rather then go for us. Although I have no way to prove. Their alllie (although perhaps not formal but pre age nap) robs us constantly. We do complain because it is lame. But elit himself said robbing is not a hostile action.

hmm if Elit thinks hostile is not a hostile act then why would he targetshare(altho the taunt banner might have been there first) why wouldn't he just take the gc himself? The ingame cf is just a mere formality

I asked elit to go try to cf them and he waved them instead. I do believe they had no intent of cfing them. I see no where in the clause that I have to wait until they re CF. In our week 4 cf he said that after we came to terms. It was never accepted. In our YR8 re CF it was never even mentioned. the only line in diplo was:

[17:42] <Elit> you cant give us notice if we got/give alredy notice from another abs/hoh kd before hostile/war/post war end

we gave them notice when hostile/war/post war ended.

I have to admit that it's quite possible they intended to go for sanct first, only Elit and possibly others in MA can know whether that's true or not. But I doubt they intended to avoid you for long, unless sanct would push the button(and I don't see how sanct would do that unless dorje suddenly went insane) there is no way they're gonna steal enough acres from sanct to pull away from you so they knew you were coming for them sooner or later.
Be a nice guy and let them play out their little spectacle with sanct and give notice after that, unless it's some long notice(like 72h+) they'll still be depleted after sanct and you would potentially win more acres, besides if you win then no one can claim victory was gained unfairly. :)
If you double hostile them there will be massive whining on the forum for ages to come which gets tedious rather quickly.

[Elldallan]

As for allies its not like absalom is the only alliance. We just tag. AMA as far as I can tell is allied with Simians/Ghetto cats?/beastblood/ex nihilo? I was told at start of age it was beastblood/simians/AMA/ex nihilo/bio? but not sure who is actually helping with that and who is just rumour. We were waved early by simians who stated they did it to help AMA for example. That is more coordinated effort to delay KD's then any abs did this age. I assume beastblood was likely asked to delay rage also. We just won both wars so now we are biggerish still. Anywho I have done my best to be fair all age. I think absalom in my first age here in general goes over the top to promote fairness. If I was solo I would have nap broke AMA ages ago for intel leaking me! But I in past have generally played a bit loose.

Or they just hate Absalom enough that they would rather see anyone else win regardless of who that is.
IF abs was all about fairness you would have disbanded long ago, Abs is about being "fair" to Abs and only about being "fair" to Abs, don't try to convince yourself of anything else and don't insult the intelligence of anyone else by trying to delude them that Abs is about being fair to anyone other than Abs.

That's a bold claim, if you were solo you wouldn't have the protection Abs provides so breaking nap would probably be a really bad idea since it would ensure no one would ever trust you again meaning you would be a pariah and people would likely vulture you left and right.

Remember the old saying, the enemy of my enemy is a friend, regardless of whether MA/Simians/ghetto cats/beastblood/ex nihilo are allied or not they would seem like they were to abs because they are in the "everyone not Abs" category. If there were no Abs everything would be a lot more fluid but because there is Abs it will always end up being Abs vs everyone else, especially when viewed from within Abs.