On utopia: A call to arms

[flogger]

So my kingdom has been asking me to make a post where we can consolidate all talk and say why we did what we did and why we felt it was correct. Lets make this as short as it can be.

We war OOP. We big. We explore to match the #1 kd so we can war 1 on 1. We know its abs. Leshrak messages us for CF and it seems as if we won't agree to me, and then this happens:




jdorje 5:59 PM what total size will they be?

leshrak 5:59 PM 2.2, 2.1, 1.7
it's only 15k solds per prov
they released most of their core military
1 soldier/acre for the whole kd
cheap

jdorje 6:09 PM
soooo
back to the idea of waving them right now
we dont like this idea still?

leshrak 6:10 PM
i dunno
flogger offered yr2 cf
not yr6

cerberusv6.66 6:14 PM
Waving right now? I don't mind the idea so much.

zauper 6:15 PM
I don't love waving into eow?
Is it the example you want to set for acceptable play?I don't...

leshrak 6:16 PM
don't sit on 10 dpa in eowcf?

jdorje 6:17 PM
not really the example we want to set for acceptable play, no

leshrak 6:17 PM
they could be razed by 400a provs right now

jdorje 6:17 PM
if he's going to farm bour next
it's bour that should be razing them

leshrak 6:17 PM
slaps bour around a bit with a large trout

cerberusv6.66 6:18 PM
eh
not sure how I feel about that

jdorje 6:19 PM
if we cf them, bour is dead
and that is bad for us
so if i were bour i'd go get the cf now
with threats of postwar hitting if they refuse

cerberusv6.66 6:20 PM
true

cerberusv6.66 7:18 PM
so eh
are we done planning?
as in, we didn't?

jdorje 7:26 PM
do we raze stables to pump?
for almost a 3 day pump?

cerberusv6.66
stables

cerberusv6.66 7:33 PM
EH
okay
let's think aboutthis. Will we want them for a fight?
we'll have like 1.5k ospecs or something

jdorje 7:34 PM
obviously we'd like them

cerberusv6.66 7:34 PM
so 25% offensive increase for that
and 16% increase for our elites

jdorje 7:34 PM
are they better than 10% more forts for a fight PLUS ~45 hours of banks?
do we want homes for this pump?
i'm guessing we do

cerberusv6.66 7:34 PM
I think we lose them, and I think we want homes
if we're going to fight, we need to go all in on the preparation
before, wehn it looked like it was just one big prov, it looked a lot less scary
things as they stand look very loseable for us
so yeah, we need to do as much as possible. I' not sure what is optimal for said preparation though
but I don't think we want stables while we're preparing

bour 7:41 PM
msged BB ingame
Off. Points 66,646

cerberusv6.66 7:42 PM
gonna get that cf?

bour 7:42 PM
will try to get it

cerberusv6.66 7:42 PM
give them at most 3 hours to respond
start killing if they don't answer or try to delay
imo

bour 7:44 PM
the guy has 12k defense
lol


My take is quite simple. The game is dead. We were going to be 32k acres, emeriti was going to be 32k acres. Everyone else was tiny.

When ASF says "is this what you want at the top" Everyone big knows us. I would like to trust that everyone in the top knows that such a chat in my council would never even take place. The sheer notion of using your retirement ghetto to take out the only competition makes me fairly convinced that this kingdom simply doesn't and will never have what it takes to be in a position of power in this watered down era, they simply want to win at all costs.

From CJ in sillies to Godly and Elit in the expendables to everyone in Sleepy and Jerks and the entire server who has dealt with us, I feel that everyone can be in 100% comfort that if you ever decided to try and grow, we would do nothing of this sort other than only fight you if you were around our size and if you had time to prepare for that fight.

So here's my call to arms: We and I are not quitting. If we lose this age, we are coming back next age and doing this again, as I imagine they would do if they were to lose.

Assuming this goes until one side gives up, and I've played for 22 straight ages and ASF has played pretty much non-stop since age 4, I can understand those that want to be neutral and stay out. If you join one side or the other its clear both sides have shown a record for stubborness throughout the ages.

What I want everyone to ask themselves is "Who do I think I trust to be the winner" Based on these logs and everyone's experience with abs in control of the server and based on their experience with how we handle ourselves in a position of power, to anri, to elit, to godly, to CJ, who do you want to walk out the winner?

Don't be neutral, I would implore you to pick a side and get involved with how you honestly think. If more people think the way we handle ourselves is wrong, I can't say I'd agree, but I'll accept that.

If abs wins, it will be like everything else in the past 10 years or so since they got disbanded the last time. If abs loses, it will be because of you. So that being said, if you want to help, message me or protector or anyone in Beastblood and we'll tell you how you can help.

I'm on record that I'm not stopping until one of us wins, because I don't think the above logs deserves any spot in our game at the top anymore.

[flogger]

Does anyone really read the above logs and fall for the Abs spin from ASF that its simply Absalom "encouraging to get a ceasefire" The entire concept of hitting us in EoW was devised by their monarch and steward, dorje and leshrak. The entire concept of us "ignoring the message" is bull**** clearly. There are likely a million posts made in the past 3 weeks that can be specifically identified as just bull**** spin.

You won't see any of that from me.

[AquaSeaFoam]

Yes, Emeriti was wrong in encouraging bour to aggressively try and secure his CF with BB. They were afraid and paranoid that you would farm him out. I admitted to Emeriti's role in what happened and I made a private and public apology for it.

Bour ingame messaged for a cf first to your leaders and the steward read the message and did not respond. Bour then ingame messaged the ~4 online players in BB asking them to please have a leader contact him urgently. These messages were also read and ignored. BB was sitting on in range land to farm Bour, but was on near 0 military. The fear (fed by the ignored cf requests) was that BB would continue ignoring him until after BB trained up and by then it would be too late for bour and he'd be farmed. This was the reason Bour made the mistake of razing BB and sending another message offering all razed land back plus interest for a cf. When BB said that it'd hinder their position vs Emeriti, Bour then offered BB to farm GC and a fake hostile to protect BB from Emeriti while BB trained up. Bour would have helped BB be in a better position vs Emeriti than without him if only BB would have agreed to give him the cf.

You rejected Bours initial offers but you later agreed to a deal with Bour and Bour gave you 2.8x the land back that he razed and agreed to your size caps so he couldn't grow too big or aim for the #1 prov again. Emeriti offered you land directly from Emeriti in addition to the 2.8x land that Bour gave you back. Emeriti also offered you adjustment of the cf deal you made with them and whatever other things BB felt would fully repair their position.

In short, you had a full apology (in private and public) and you had offers of full reparations from both Bour and Emeriti directly and there was simply no reason for you to do what you did instead.

You have told me in private that it was your goal to beat Absalom in an alliance war before you retired form the game. It's well known that you have planned to retire for a while now and it was no secret that you planned for this to be your last age. You also told me directly that from the moment you found out that Emeriti knew Bour that you were already set on an alliance war.

Flogger: "Our whole leadership chan shows our intention to dealbreak the second we knew it was bourreau"
Flogger: "We were going to cf becayse i cant draft early and kill (bour) at the same time"
ASF: "So my point is that if you knew who it was when you made the deal and you planned to deal break from the time you knew who it was, then you made the deal with the intention of breaking it"
Flogger: "Of course, 100% no Denial"
Flogger: "And when we had the logs i knew id win an awar"
Flogger: "Then i made the forum post of "q for emeriti'"

The reality is that yes, Emeriti messed up in advising a friend to force a cf with BB. But the reality is also that Emeriti apologized for it and offered their own land and other terms in addition to the 2.8x land back that Bour gave BB to ensure BB was not hurt by what happened. BB admits that they planned alliance war from the second they knew it was bour. It is clear that no amount of fairness or reasonable offers to fix the situation were acceptable since flogger knew he could win an awar against Emeriti which was the closest thing left to Absalom.

There is example after example of worse things happening in Utopia than a guy trying to force a cf and razing and immediately offering all land back for a cf. Your ally Pyro has been involved in many of them recently and so have you flogger in the past. Yet when these other kingdoms do things, it's rare for one to even apologize for it, let alone offer full generous reparations.

[flogger]

Yes, Emeriti was wrong in encouraging bour to aggressively try and secure his CF with BB. They were afraid and paranoid that you would farm him out. I admitted to Emeriti's role in what happened and I made a private and public apology for it.

Bour ingame messaged for a cf first to your leaders and the steward read the message and did not respond. Bour then ingame messaged the ~4 online players in BB asking them to please have a leader contact him urgently. These messages were also read and ignored. BB was sitting on in range land to farm Bour, but was on near 0 military. The fear (fed by the ignored cf requests) was that BB would continue ignoring him until after BB trained up and by then it would be too late for bour and he'd be farmed. This was the reason Bour made the mistake of razing BB and sending another message offering all razed land back plus interest for a cf. When BB said that it'd hinder their position vs Emeriti, Bour then offered BB to farm GC and a fake hostile to protect BB from Emeriti while BB trained up. Bour would have helped BB be in a better position vs Emeriti than without him if only BB would have agreed to give him the cf.

You rejected Bours initial offers but you later agreed to a deal with Bour and Bour gave you 2.8x the land back that he razed and agreed to your size caps so he couldn't grow too big or aim for the #1 prov again. Emeriti offered you land directly from Emeriti in addition to the 2.8x land that Bour gave you back. Emeriti also offered you adjustment of the cf deal you made with them and whatever other things BB felt would fully repair their position.

In short, you had a full apology (in private and public) and you had offers of full reparations from both Bour and Emeriti directly and there was simply no reason for you to do what you did instead.

You have told me in private that it was your goal to beat Absalom in an alliance war before you retired form the game. It's well known that you have planned to retire for a while now and it was no secret that you planned for this to be your last age. You also told me directly that from the moment you found out that Emeriti knew Bour that you were already set on an alliance war.

Flogger: "Our whole leadership chan shows our intention to dealbreak the second we knew it was bourreau"
Flogger: "We were going to cf becayse i cant draft early and kill (bour) at the same time"
ASF: "So my point is that if you knew who it was when you made the deal and you planned to deal break from the time you knew who it was, then you made the deal with the intention of breaking it"
Flogger: "Of course, 100% no Denial"
Flogger: "And when we had the logs i knew id win an awar"
Flogger: "Then i made the forum post of "q for emeriti'"

The reality is that yes, Emeriti messed up in advising a friend to force a cf with BB. But the reality is also that Emeriti apologized for it and offered their own land and other terms in addition to the 2.8x land back that Bour gave BB to ensure BB was not hurt by what happened. BB admits that they planned alliance war from the second they knew it was bour. It is clear that no amount of fairness or reasonable offers to fix the situation were acceptable since flogger knew he could win an awar against Emeriti which was the closest thing left to Absalom.

There is example after example of worse things happening in Utopia than a guy trying to force a cf and razing and immediately offering all land back for a cf. Your ally Pyro has been involved in many of them recently and so have you flogger in the past. Yet when these other kingdoms do things, it's rare for one to even apologize for it, let alone offer full generous reparations.

The point is you never made an apology or admitted any involvement at all until I posted proof otherwise. then you lied and denied more involvement until I provided more proof and then you apologized for that. Then you said you knew the guy but he did it on his own. Dorje himself said he didn't say for him to raze about 10 times in the forums. The entire damn thing was his idea.

I purposely provided proof in steps so I could catch you guys in about 5 steps of denials and then apologies to follow. So any denials or apologies you make at this point have been pretty much proven as worthless. We have had the logs for weeks, that's why we didn't post them right away, to specifically show that you'll only admit to whatever is proven otherwise and that your apologies are hollow.

[AquaSeaFoam]

The point is you never made an apology or admitted any involvement at all until I posted proof otherwise. then you lied and denied more involvement until I provided more proof and then you apologized for that. Then you said you knew the guy but he did it on his own. Dorje himself said he didn't say for him to raze about 10 times in the forums. The entire damn thing was his idea.

I purposely provided proof in steps so I could catch you guys in about 5 steps of denials and then apologies to follow. So any denials or apologies you make at this point have been pretty much proven as worthless. We have had the logs for weeks, that's why we didn't post them right away, to specifically show that you'll only admit to whatever is proven otherwise and that your apologies are hollow.

No, I didn't do those things. When you respond to me and say "you" a lot, people might get the wrong idea. Yes, Emeriti denied knowing who he was when you asked leshrak if he knew who his loc was. While it's not how I'd have responded if asked, I have experienced that it is how a lot of others do respond when asked if they know locs early age. From the time you first contacted me, I told you what happened including that people in Emeriti suggested Bour could raze you to force a cf.

In the past when you farmed gc to a kingdom to help them 2v1 my kingdom into an active hostile/war (unprovoked), I confronted you about it. When you were confronted you directly lied about it and denied it completely. It was only after I brought out the logs completely proving it that you finally admitted to it and then apologized. Still you offered nothing in the way of compensation. This was when Absalom was still strong as well but yet I made no drama over your lies or your helping 2v1 us unprovoked. I didn't gb you when you refused any reparations. You are a hypocrite to overreact to Leshrak denying knowing a location YR0 when you have proven that you yourself will lie and deny your own dirty play as long as you think there is a chance you can get away with it.

The difference is that Emeriti offered full reparations from their own kingdom in addition to the 2.8x acres that bour gave back to BB for his mistake in addition to apologies both in private and in public.

As for dorje, he is at the heart of your concerns and as you pasted he said both:
"if he's going to farm bour next it's bour that should be razing them" and
"if we cf them, bour is dead and that is bad for us so if i were bour i'd go get the cf now with threats of postwar hitting if they refuse"

Neither of those were said to bour directly although bour was idle in the channel he said them. dorje had expected that threats of hitting would have been enough and he could get a cf with threats alone without actually doing it.

There's also a lot more logs you didn't mention:

<jdorje> i think there is no harm in threatening to hit into postwar with a kd that chooses to be superfat but will farm you once oow
<jdorje> postwar is op
<jdorje> but you should have given them more time to respond, or gotten their attention with a single raze or even a bounce
<bour> Yeah I agree

and there was:
<jdorje> by having only one ceasefire, and by having bour in our council channel, we automatically turn them into the biggest farms on the server
<jdorje> its a problem

Before the razes happened he said,
<jdorje> i think it's 50-50 now
<jdorje> we'll be stronger militarily, but they have a better spread and cleric bonus
<jdorje> i think we'd beat bb actually

There's more such things of course like:

<bour> I've been thinking about this since yesterday and I think it was a mistake to hit into eowcf. I always tried to upheld myself to the highest possible moral standards, except when people were complete ass. BB werent ass to us or to almost anyone in the game. Sadly, all they want is either to kill us or to war us. I'll probably delete my province in a couple of hours and altough it doesnt repair the damage done to BB, I feel it's the best decision to make at this moment.

The point is the same. Emeriti messed up in suggesting bour could force a cf by razing bb before they trained up. It wasn't suggested with the intention of helping Emeriti vs BB, it was suggested with the intention of preventing bour from getting farmed. Bour not getting farmed was good for Emeriti to prevent their competition from farming ahead of them and so that BB couldn't dodge them by going after Bour. Wanting Bour to get a cf wasn't wrong, but suggesting he could force one by razing if BB ignored him crossed the line. However, considering Bour gave back 2.8x the land he razed and Emeriti offered their own land too and whatever else you felt needed to fix your situation, there was simply no justification to deal break and gb Emeriti.

[flogger]

Also please keep your posts shorter.

[bombdigie]

Liar liar, pants on fire.

[13nesta13]

There is example after example of worse things happening in Utopia than a guy trying to force a cf and razing and immediately offering all land back for a cf. Your ally Pyro has been involved in many of them recently and so have you flogger in the past. Yet when these other kingdoms do things, it's rare for one to even apologize for it, let alone offer full generous reparations.

This is like the closest thing to BS i have read amongst the many threads started regarding this issue so far.

Sure we robbed some gc OOH who had no CF offers with us.

Who forced that though, by playing with loopholes and words in an apparently and conclusively to me done-deal except your monarch went off the grid, not just in IRC, but in game, consistently over 10 days and suddenly voila, you have been served. Should I post the logs of how the CF discussions went for you to get a better picture?
Your dwarf banks had 2k gcpa and 40k soldiers drafted at notice period, and ours were on less than 500 gcpa and no draft. This was clearly an attempt to jump on us by word-playing, and not an attempt to dodge simians.

For all of the 6 ages we have been charting for land, we have always provided healthy competition and have not been farmed out or farm-warred anyone. You may consider Shinra a farm war just by the margin we beat them by if you wish, but it was a 1/2 fight unlike your countless 60-70% landrange fights.

Us and BB are friendly but we were never so unanimous in our goals and ideals until you gave us a reason to be so. In fact this age we didnt even discuss or have CF at start of age (points to their claims that they wanted an age off and war strong, war fast early). In a no-homo way, you kinda brought us closer together with what went down the first week OOP, when they told me they got razed by your allies and upon instigation/cajoling/advice from your 2 key council members.

[KuhaN]

Awars are tiring, I liked the old peaceful utopia..

saD

[TheOne]

Sure we robbed some gc OOH who had no CF offers with us.

Who forced that though, by playing with loopholes and words in an apparently and conclusively to me done-deal except your monarch went off the grid, not just in IRC, but in game, consistently over 10 days and suddenly voila, you have been served. Should I post the logs of how the CF discussions went for you to get a better picture?
Your dwarf banks had 2k gcpa and 40k soldiers drafted at notice period, and ours were on less than 500 gcpa and no draft. This was clearly an attempt to jump on us by word-playing, and not an attempt to dodge simians..

Lol this is lol worthy.

Firstly, you begged me to release thieves on two provinces and pump gc on them for you to rob to fund close to two drakes. It's not some typical 'rob some gc OOH'. Do you need me to screenshot the WhatsApp grp you specially created for this?

There was a reason why I didn't get cf up between our kds since oop, where my kingdom then funded your exploring and also funded gc for you to nw drop to declare on the war you got actioned.

Just too bad you decided to burn all bridges and let your ego get to you at the end of the age.

Second, you just basically didn't confirm your diplo and cf with emeriti, and stop being butthurt about it. You made a diplomatic flaw by not having a keen eye on detail.

Many have asked me why does nesta suck so bad after the crowning age. I think the reason(s) are obvious.

In the eyes of many of the ex-real pyros chillaxing in sillies, pyromaniacs has already died out since the end of last age. And this doesn't come from me. Comes from players who have played in the real pyro longer than the 2nd oldest remaining pyro in your shell.

[Sofs1]

So, basically from the logs it is obvious Emeriti and ABS were lying all this time, pretending something when we can clearly see that Zauper was the only one in tities council who didnt want to raze or have bour (who was in titi council chan) razing BB to force their hand.

You can talk all the BS you want now, trying to get the topic out of the logs and how you got totally caught cheating, and by the way this thread is going, you are being successful, still it doesnt change the fact you got caught in your ABS usual tactics and now got served the same treatment you usually serve, and oh my, its an injustice, cheating, imoral, unethical....funny you dont think that of the multiple and constant times YOU DID IT to others.

[Guilty Conscience]

Emeriti been borderline since it's creation. Actions was required and is still required.

[scheffie]

Question to ASF: why are u constantly defending while i recall u were not playing this age. I also recall i have seen u making apologies but never saw any other leadership doing that or bourreau. Mostly apologies only have some value if they offered by the offenders. Let me know if I am wrong.

[DoOrDie]

Question to ASF: why are u constantly defending while i recall u were not playing this age. I also recall i have seen u making apologies but never saw any other leadership doing that or bourreau. Mostly apologies only have some value if they offered by the offenders. Let me know if I am wrong.

Did I screw up? Yes. Was it wrong? Yes. Am I sorry? Yes. Did I intend to give back all the acres + compensation even before the razes started? Yes.

I'm the offender, that was on may 23.

[Palem]

I'm not sure if this is target sharing or not...I'll let Bishop make that call.

That being said...

So here's my call to arms: We and I are not quitting. If we lose this age, we are coming back next age and doing this again, as I imagine they would do if they were to lose.

Don't be neutral, I would implore you to pick a side and get involved with how you honestly think.

I'm on record that I'm not stopping until one of us wins, because I don't think the above logs deserves any spot in our game at the top anymore.

Does it seriously not bother anyone else that this sounds nothing like flogger?