To Cheat or not to Cheat

[MorbidAngel]

Sweetipie, then no due respect, shut up.

In my first statement I addressed points you brought up in your original post, therefore was completely on topic. You want to reduce the number of cheaters, you take away their incentive to cheat by reducing the benefits of doing so, whilst maintaining the risk.

As for my second post, I was replying to your immediately previous statement:

"Stoffi, if ppl quit bcos of being caught cheating & don't like the fundamental rules of the game, maybe they should never have played in the 1st place?
That's why I'll be off if Catwalk's idea is implemented, because I won't like the rules of the game."

There are still people who say things like that. Funny thing is that one 3YR old kid "reports" other kid it doesn't like and if parents ignore him/her, baby starts to cry...

You were saying why you would not want to see what you consider to be cheating legalised. I was explaining why I would like to see it legalised, and how it would be a benefit to utopia as a whole. Just because you do not like the concept of trading does not mean it does not have a place in the game. I know of several hundred players who would have quit long ago if they had not traded into a decent kingdom from the ghetto they were in, just out of sheer frustration at the kingdom, it's poor attitude, it's even worse activity, it's complete lack of coordination, etc.

I am one who would quit. And I was about to do that...

If you don't like people presenting legitimate rebuttal to your arguements, then do not present them in the first place

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 6 characters.

[Sweetiepie]

I'm not a nub. Being attacked as part of a wave is just par for the course. There was xlogging (or heavy enough trading that players lived together) evidence which was supplied (and I think you can fill in the blanks on the kind of evidence it was, because that's pretty specific to those traits) ; the point being he heard nothing, not even a receipt of his email acknowldegement. I should imagine that is most people's experience.

Also I still say you are flying in the face of the facts, Morbid - as Support has already stated that even in a short period,they've been receiving complaints about trading. Therefore how can you say it is accepted by 80% of the server?

Allonon, take your rudeness and stick it somewhere else. If you have insufficient mastery of the English tongue to post nothing otherr then 'shut up', you need to swallow a dictionary.
I'm not going to post any replies to your off topic 'legalise trading' in this thread, that has a long enough thread of it's own. This thread would be better served if it could stay on topic about cheating.

[MorbidAngel]

I'm not a nub. Being attacked as part of a wave is just par for the course. There was xlogging (or heavy enough trading that players lived together) evidence which was supplied (and I think you can fill in the blanks on the kind of evidence it was, because that's pretty specific to those traits) ; the point being he heard nothing, not even a receipt of his email acknowldegement. I should imagine that is most people's experience.

Don't tell me you used IP tracker to find x-loggers? You know that u can go to the jail cos of that. Otherwise, I cannot fill blanks so you'll have to fill them for me.. Or you are afraid to fill too much?

Also I still say you are flying in the face of the facts, Morbid - as Support has already stated that even in a short period,they've been receiving complaints about trading. Therefore how can you say it is accepted by 80% of the server?

Hmmm, if one player reports kd cos they asked them to trade acc, that is 24 pro-traders (considering fact that kd follows monarch and would report him a long time ago if they hate trading so much (err, am I seeing "unwritten rule" again?)) compared to one anti-trader. So 24/25=96%. But say average kd got 22 players. 21/22=95.45%

But let me draw you. I will even use colors if you want.

Imagine that you decide to play football, but you never played it before. You go to the sign-up place and they random you in Juventus. You are happy that you went to the good team but team doesn't think same. You are not as good as they want u to be. So, whole year you are substitute, not playing a single minute. You don't like that, you go to the sign-up again (if you don't quit football before) and you random in Arsenal. Same thing again. If you haven't quit already, you will quit now.. On the other hand, Zidane goes to the sign-up but he randoms in some C league team. He wants to compete, this is too easy for him. But he can't, because you are in Juventus, sitting and doing nothing, while he is a team leader even if he don't want that and he must do both off and def, because his team is incapable of doing that. Why won't you let Zidane to play in Juventus? Because he will find new friends this way?

Good players aren't happy cos they need to play in crappy kd, bad players aren't happy cos they are keep getting killed, pro-traders aren't happy because they have to pay for proxies, to search for players from right country, and all their effort ends with mass deletions. But anti-traders are happy because they ruined game to someone.

Good job!

EDIT: Answer to edited part of post:

Allonon, take your rudeness and stick it somewhere else. If you have insufficient mastery of the English tongue to post nothing otherr then 'shut up', you need to swallow a dictionary.

/ignore not my business

I'm not going to post any replies to your off topic 'legalise trading' in this thread, that has a long enough thread of it's own. This thread would be better served if it could stay on topic about cheating.

So you say trading isn't cheating?

[Sweetiepie]

Morbid, what I'm saying is that it would be good if this thread should not stray into the 'legalising trading' discussion which is currently covered by a very enormous thread.

As to your other point, well if you don't know how to identify xloggers, why don't you join Catwalks strat channel, I'm sure he'll explain. I'm not teaching nubs in this thread.

By the way, I'm afraid I'm a typical female. You mentioned football, and I stopped reading at that point.

[MorbidAngel]

You are a female?? Ok, nvm, I will translate it to the barbie thingy when i get up.

As for that, I do not know how to identify them. I am not programmer.

Check this thread please, at least 1st post:http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread....7#post13973667

[Baobandia]

But let me draw you. I will even use colors if you want.

Imagine that you decide to play football, but you never played it before. You go to the sign-up place and they random you in Juventus. You are happy that you went to the good team but team doesn't think same. You are not as good as they want u to be. So, whole year you are substitute, not playing a single minute. You don't like that, you go to the sign-up again (if you don't quit football before) and you random in Arsenal. Same thing again. If you haven't quit already, you will quit now.. On the other hand, Zidane goes to the sign-up but he randoms in some C league team. He wants to compete, this is too easy for him. But he can't, because you are in Juventus, sitting and doing nothing, while he is a team leader even if he don't want that and he must do both off and def, because his team is incapable of doing that. Why won't you let Zidane to play in Juventus? Because he will find new friends this way?

Good players aren't happy cos they need to play in crappy kd, bad players aren't happy cos they are keep getting killed, pro-traders aren't happy because they have to pay for proxies, to search for players from right country, and all their effort ends with mass deletions. But anti-traders are happy because they ruined game to someone.

Good job!

Worst analogy ever.
a.- Football teams pay for their players
b.- Most respectable clubs do have football schools of some sort, where people who don't have a clue about it can go to play (assuming they're young enough) and, if they have talent, they might perfectly make it big.
c.- Obviously, playing Utopia compares in no way to playing football - it even has different goals (nobody gets drafted into La Vecchia Signora to meet new people).

There were plenty of replies I should quote, but I think my last message didn't quite get through, except for an official reply there. Which I won't quote, either, because there's little to add or question over there.

[stoffi]

Well Morbid, Bigfoot's post shows just how wrong you are with this rubbish of an 'unwritten rule of it being dishonourable to report cheating' ...he says he's had reports. Obviously it's only an unwritten rule in Top 50.
Stoffi, if ppl quit bcos of being caught cheating & don't like the fundamental rules of the game, maybe they should never have played in the 1st place?
That's why I'll be off if Catwalk's idea is implemented, because I won't like the rules of the game.

You are pretty much on your own here. If all trading suddenly was caught and deleted, this game would die in an instant. Thousands of players would get deleted, and they would not bother starting over again in some ghetto. Most oldtimers play because they can play with friends, and they have good organization and a high skill level in their kds, and wouldn't want to swap that for zero organization and extreme inactivity in some ghetto.
There is no way more than 2% of those thousands would restart in a ghetto and start playing legit there.

[Allanon KT]

Allonon, take your rudeness and stick it somewhere else. If you have insufficient mastery of the English tongue to post nothing otherr then 'shut up', you need to swallow a dictionary.

Very well, Sweetiepie, I shall elaborate on my statement:

Cease your relentless prattle on discriminating arguements against you unless you are prepared to concede that others have an opposing viewpoint, and accept it when they vocalise it against yours

Shove that one up your tailpipe, nublar. And at least try to spell my name right if you are going to challenge my knowledge of the english language.

I'm not going to post any replies to your off topic 'legalise trading' in this thread, that has a long enough thread of it's own. This thread would be better served if it could stay on topic about cheating.

Trading <is> cheating, nub. You want to cut down on cheating, decrease the profit of it by making it so that some of what they cheated to do is now legal. This will discourage them from being in a position to take the extra step without further risk, and free up support and development personnel to focus on things like x-logging, scripting, etc

And Stoffi, I back that viewpoint 100%, as I know do hundreds, if not thousands of current players

[hatter]

Cease your relentless prattle on discriminating arguements against you unless you are prepared to concede that others have an opposing viewpoint, and accept it when they vocalise it against yours

Shove that one up your tailpipe, nublar. And at least try to spell my name right if you are going to challenge my knowledge of the english language.

ROFL - oh yeah

[Mirage]

I remember a mail of Sweetietie in another thread, about mid-kd's being the core of this game (and not only those 5% superactive, trading, random rookie-killers on top of kd-rankings).

Sweetietie said he would quit if cheating was legalised, and with him probably his kd because mid-kd's are most often ran by only one motor : the monarch. (or like Sweetietie said, those monarchs are the glue of their teams).

Well, this 100-200 ranked kd-monarch is BLOODY SERIOUS about this... Legalise trading and inviting, and I'm gone...


A game isn't fair if the "framework" isn't the same for all participants.
And don't tell me that trading is happening now anyway.
People who agree with the Code, but cheat afterwards to be more competitive, are persona non grata.
... Just ordinary cheaters. Nothing else ...

[RAKIdaRHINO]

havent read it all. so much to read yet.
however the 1ip rule is silly.
First of static ips are a luxury for most, and even those with static ips can have it changed without really knowing so.

Secondly i use 4-5 different locations to play utopia from.
University
Home
Parents
Cell
(Friends.. well atleast on rare occasions)

Should i be deleted for this?
Think not.

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(i will edit these posts together later.. cant switch pages atm..)

Bigfoot
Introducing such a "buddy" system to Utopia is fraught with difficulty but the essence of it could help to modify the games approach to trading as if people weren't willing to use such a system they would have no excuse.
Who needs an excuse? People not willing to pay for your buddy system will trade on their own. Thinking otherwise is naive and shows lack of understanding about the community that IS Utopia. (not just utopia for that matter either.. )
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Sweetiepie
I think you'd find that if Mehul was still in charge and active, they would not have been proudly announcing that they recruit their kingdom, because they would have been mass deleted. He was always against trading and thought allowing it would destroy the game.
If you start deleting people cause they write something on official forums in an attempt to make the game better you kinda shoot yourself in the foot.

Secondly you cant really tie a forum post to a province either regardless of matching ip-addresses.

People whine too much about what the top kds do imo. If they are too active for you dont get into war with them. Simple as that. Most top kds are high up in the charts anyway.

Stoffi, if ppl quit bcos of being caught cheating & don't like the fundamental rules of the game, maybe they should never have played in the 1st place?

Its not just that THEY got deleted. Do you know how many kds that has been disbanded cause of deletions? When a kd disbands its very likely that alot of the players in it quit aswell (unless they have the patience to fill the accounts again, which alot of the old timers eventually run out of).

(bah just noticed stoffi said the same thing.. booooo! <3 stoffi )
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And yeah, like others said. invites != trading != xlogging.
keep them apart. You too stoffi.

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hatter
the easiest way to stop top kingdoms forcing new players to hand over account info is for OMAC/Swirve employees to occasionally create test accounts in top kingdoms - if they are asked to hand over their account info then the kingdom is disbanded, no second chance.
First of all alot of the real top kds dont get new players.
Secondly that would work ONCE. After that all topkds would go back to just scripting their accounts instead and kill off anyone who randoms in who they dont know/scripted.
you cant punish a whole kd for the wrong doing of one either. Also, if they let people know ahead of time i dont even think it would happen once i a top kd since they would be careful enough to avoid it.

If only people thought one step further....

[RAKIdaRHINO]

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[RAKIdaRHINO]

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[RAKIdaRHINO]

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[MorbidAngel]

Worst analogy ever.
a.- Football teams pay for their players
b.- Most respectable clubs do have football schools of some sort, where people who don't have a clue about it can go to play (assuming they're young enough) and, if they have talent, they might perfectly make it big.
c.- Obviously, playing Utopia compares in no way to playing football - it even has different goals (nobody gets drafted into La Vecchia Signora to meet new people).

There were plenty of replies I should quote, but I think my last message didn't quite get through, except for an official reply there. Which I won't quote, either, because there's little to add or question over there.

But I think u figured what I was trying to say..