Israel, it's about time!

[stoffi]

Who was responsible for the occupation of Poland during WW2 and all their sufferings? Germany.
Who were responsible for the massacres during the warsawa rebellion? Germany. The ppl of Warsawa took up arms against their opressors, and tried to fight off the occupation. Many germans were killed, but in the end, Germany bombed them all to hell, much like Israel now bombs Gaza.

There is only one part to blame, the occupant. Israel created this situation by occupying Palestine. The occupant must leave and withdraw to their own borders, -67 lines.

Israel is an occupant, and Hamas along with PLO are fighting against occupation like most of europe during WW2. Germany called the resistance groups for terrorists, did you know that?
But there was only one part to blame, the occupant.

[Nemo]

What I understand you're saying is that if Israel would fire artillery fire on the Gaza strip, without aiming, from a city it will be OK. Hamas can't target it because it's a civilian target and civilian might be killed and they obviously won't survive a ground assault. Israel will be responsible for this kind of attack for sure, but no one in the world will say Hamas should do something about it - it is a civilian target after all.

I disagree with this completely. If you are being attacked you have a right for self defence.

What I'm saying is that the target in that case would be filled with civilians. If you have the ability to lessen civilian losses by going in manually, you should do so, instead of bombing them and killing/injuring thousands. As I understand it, Israel has launched a ground attack on Saturday. There was no need to kill so many people with bombs when you could go in and neutralise the artillery sites. And while you're at it, you could engage Hamas face to face, just like you wanted, albeit with tanks on your side which would tarnish the glory slightly.

They've been launching an offensive on Israeli soil for eight years now. If you think launching rockets is not offensive you shouldn't condone Israeli air strikes.

I should have used the word "ground attack". Sorry.

Don't hold back your suggestions on how to stop Hamas's threat without any losses (on either side).

If I knew a way to get zero losses on both sides, I would take it.

There cannot be 0 losses. But there doesn't have to be thousands either.

As far as I know, none of the civilians killed on the Israeli side were inside the Gaza strip

I thought we decided to disagree on the boundaries. Anyway, I'll say again, I do not condone killing civilians, on either side.

Snuggleysoft:

If Cuba began sending rockets to America, then damn skippy I'd want us to bomb Cuban military sites.

Send in the army, neutralise the rocket sites. If it's clean cut military site, feel free to bomb the place. If you feel there is a rocket stash under a school where a bunch of kids study, send the army, move the kids, and look for the ammo dump. Don't drop a bomb on them for Christ's sake. Be the good guys you say you are.

[WolfDGrey]

this thread is just hilarious :))

[allonons]

stoffi answer me this...

Do you agree if Israel wanted to it could completely wipe Gaza off the face of the earth?


Let me answer for you befor you start halucinating again ....YES!


And why do they not do it?

Because thier not terrorist or fanatics like Hamas ,oh but you say then they would be attacked for sure......by who?Who else is willing to get tatical nukes shoved up thier arses?Iran? Syria? I don't think so.

Your argument is weak and radical just like Hamas!

Go hide behind your mamas skirt.

[Mourhelm]

What I'm saying is that the target in that case would be filled with civilians. If you have the ability to lessen civilian losses by going in manually, you should do so, instead of bombing them and killing/injuring thousands. As I understand it, Israel has launched a ground attack on Saturday. There was no need to kill so many people with bombs when you could go in and neutralise the artillery sites.

I invite you to join your nation's Intelligence corps. You might learn to assess risks. Attacking Hamas is not a walk in the park as you try to present it.

And while you're at it, you could engage Hamas face to face, just like you wanted, albeit with tanks on your side which would tarnish the glory slightly.

We are not looking for glory, we're looking for safety and to live without terror.

I should have used the word "ground attack". Sorry.

So because Hamas doesn't have good ground forces it's legitimate for them to use artillery fire, but because Israel has good ground forces it's not legitimate for it to use artillery and air strikes?

If Israel didn't have a ground force, would you say that the air strikes are OK?

There cannot be 0 losses. But there doesn't have to be thousands either.

Sadly, these are the minimal losses. If Hamas took care of its people, you would see a lot less casualties for sure.

I thought we decided to disagree on the boundaries.

The fact that you say that the territory given to Israel by the UN is actually Palestinian doesn't make Israeli civilians sacrifice themselves. They just want to live their lives in safety.

Anyway, I'll say again, I do not condone killing civilians, on either side.

Yes you do. You condone the killing of civilians on the Palestinian side, but on the other hand say it's fine for Hamas to target and kill Israeli civilians.

Send in the army, neutralise the rocket sites. If it's clean cut military site, feel free to bomb the place. If you feel there is a rocket stash under a school where a bunch of kids study, send the army, move the kids, and look for the ammo dump. Don't drop a bomb on them for Christ's sake. Be the good guys you say you are.

Hamas knows exactly where the civilians are trying to hide. Instead of going away from these places, to keep the civilians safe, they go as near as possible to these locations and use the civilians as human shields. They fire mortar shells on Israeli forces. The Israeli ground forces return fire to the source and then you blame them for the death of the civilians.

As I said before, the civilians in the Gaza strips are victims of Hamas. If Hamas cared about its people it wouldn't have used the civilians as human shields.

[Mourhelm]

stoffi answer me this...

...

Your argument is weak and radical just like Hamas!

Why do you even bother with him? You said it yourself, his argument is weak and radical.

He showed numerous times that what he wants is more blood shed, not less. But he wants it on the Israeli side.

[stoffi]

stoffi answer me this...

Do you agree if Israel wanted to it could completely wipe Gaza off the face of the earth?


Let me answer for you befor you start halucinating again ....YES!


And why do they not do it?

Because thier not terrorist or fanatics like Hamas ,oh but you say then they would be attacked for sure......by who?Who else is willing to get tatical nukes shoved up thier arses?Iran? Syria? I don't think so.

Your argument is weak and radical just like Hamas!

Go hide behind your mamas skirt.

So you're saying USA should bomb entire villages/cities in Iraq because they COULD nuke the whole country if they wanted to?

Should the palestinians feel lucky because Israel doesn't kill them all?

And how come Israel bombed several UN schools? The UN has already denied that any Hamas were anywhere near, while Israel says they retaliated to Hamas fire from inside the school today. When did the UN lie? Never.
Israel on the other hand, has a long tradition of deception and lies.

I hope an investigation is opened and the ppl responsible are convicted in Haag.

[stoffi]

Why do you even bother with him? You said it yourself, his argument is weak and radical.

He showed numerous times that what he wants is more blood shed, not less. But he wants it on the Israeli side.

I want Israel to withdraw their settlers from the west bank, I want Israel to recognize a democratically elected government, I want Israel to stop keeping the citizens of Gaza in prison, while bombing them.

How on earth can you support this massacre?? It goes against all logic. hamas should stop sending rockets ofc, but it was Israel who provoked them into sending rockets, and it's Israel who are occupying the palestinians.
Israel must find better sollutions to their problems, Hamas offered peace and two states in 2007, but Israel refused to talk to the democratically elected government. This offensive has been planned for months already and has nothing to do with Hamas sending rockets again, that was just a bonus for israel, a reason to bomb.

So I ask you once again, how can you support the butchering of an entire ppl? Because Israel IS targetting civilians, or not caring if they are in the way. That's already been established at the UN, BBC, etc etc.

So how can you support terrorist actions like this?

And I may remind you I don't support Hamas sending rockets into Israel.

[stoffi]

Hamas tried peace, they had a CF with Israel, but what did they get from it? Gaza was worse than ever, being locked down by Israel with lack of food, fuel, medisines, no trade, nothing came trough. The palestinians achieved nothing from this CF because Israel does not want peace with Hamas. So the best thing Hamas could do, was to fight back. I certainly hope they target IDF soldiers/terrorists instead of civilians though.

Israel needs a new government, a government who doesn't want "lebensraum" and copy Hitlers dreams, it needs a government who treats palestinians like ppl, not maggots. A government who wants peace.

[stoffi]

And compared to all other conflicts, the civilian casualties are sky-high every time Israel fights. don't you find this weird? Other countries fight similar wars against an opponent who blends in with the civilian population, but they manage to avoid extreme civilian casualties.
But Israel seems to have problems doing this, even in southern lebanon when there was a minimum of civilian ppl left, they bombed everything that moved, even ambulances, and bombing ambulances has continued in this conflict, including hospitals, un schools, market places, etc. The typical terrorist targets.

[WolfDGrey]

but they manage to avoid extreme civilian casualties.

That is same as your "casuality report", not true. You seem to foeget that both sides use propaganda.

85% of the caualities in post-WW2 wars are civilians.

[Nemo]

Yes you do. You condone the killing of civilians on the Palestinian side, but on the other hand say it's fine for Hamas to target and kill Israeli civilians.

Just because I'm arguing against what Israel is doing, doesn't mean I support Hamas. Just because I'm arguing against the killing of Palestinian civilians, doesn't mean I'm supporting killing Israeli civilians. That is a serious misconception.

However, should Hamas switch to hitting military targets, they'll have my full support. Why? In my views, Palestinians are in the right [it's their country], but Hamas is wrong [killing civilians, without giving it much thought]. If they switch to military targets, then they become freedom fighters.

Israeli's are in the wrong [they're on occupied territory], and what their military is doing is also wrong [killing civilians, saying they are giving it thought and then bombing heedlessly].

Since atm they're both wrong in one way or another, none of them have my support. Since Israel tried to be on the moral high horse, it got my criticism. If a Palestinian [or one of their supporters] creates a thread to applaud Hamas sending rockets into Israel, I would criticize him too. Those are my views and if you don't like it *shrug*

I have nothing more to say to you, since you've already assumed the worst of me.

[stoffi]

That is same as your "casuality report", not true. You seem to foeget that both sides use propaganda.

85% of the caualities in post-WW2 wars are civilians.

Not true. And this is not a regular war, this is an occupation, like when Soviet occupied east europe + others, it's an occupation in a way like Iraq, with the difference that the Iraqis originally welcomed USA(most of them).
Like in WW2 and other conflicts, the occupied country will always fight back. This has happened every time since homo sapiens came to be, ppl will fight back.

In Norway during WW2, 2 german officers were killed in a small norwegian town by the resistance. The germans responded by executing many males, and deporting the rest to consentration camps. The children and women were put elsewhere, and they burned down the town.
The germans blamed the local community for all this, the resistance had "forced" the germans to take revenge. Just like Israel now says it's Hamas' fault Israel is bombing civilians.

But that ain't correct... Both Germany and Israel had a choice, a choice to not slaughter innocent ppl and unleash a collective punishment on the civilian population. But Germany was like Israel, they claimed it wasn't their fault.

Israel CHOSE to act like this months ago, long before Hamas fired any rockets. Germany didn't plan this, so if we compare these two events, the germans were much nicer. And they even spared the women and children, that's something Israel can't claim to do.

[stoffi]

Why do you even bother with him? You said it yourself, his argument is weak and radical.

He showed numerous times that what he wants is more blood shed, not less. But he wants it on the Israeli side.

Stop putting words in other peoples mouth btw. I've seen you do it to many others here too.

Just for the record, you are the extremist, wishing civilians to die, closing your eyes for the crimes comitted. In Europe, we view most americans as pretty fanatic/extreme.
Remember that Hamas doesn't see themselves as extreme. They laugh at it just like you laugh at you being called extremist. But it's wise to listen to what ppl around you say, they act as a mirror to your actions and opinions.
USA is on the way to become a fanatic religious maniac state like Iran and others, where being an atheist is worse than being gay. Sick.

[VT2]

If I warred Israel, I'd shove dragons down their throats, while stealing all their peasants.