Israel, it's about time!

[TheMistressOfBaal]

Looking at the actions of the state of Israel, it is significantly hard to retain a neutral view towards the governing body and armed forces of the country.

Given the abundence of information available from trustworthy sources, there is no plausible doubt that Israel has a deliberate policy of targetting the civilian populations of the palestinian areas.

Such targetting does not always take the form of guns and bombs, though we have seen far far too much direct murder of civilians by the armed forces - as has been pointed out, actions that would be deemed to be war crimes, were they not perpetrated by a "friend of the west". The palestinians are also targetted by economic weapons, the theft of high grade land, the disruption of transport, deliberate perpetuation of states of poverty and deprvation of the essential s for sustinence of life.

It is unsurprising that enforcing such conditions on a population breeds resentment, breeds anger, breeds the potential for violence. I wonder if there were any area in the world that would not react similarly under such restrictions. My belief is that there is not.

Peace is a word often bandied about, and often sought by leaders and representatives of nations not directly involved, but no peace is presently possible. Peace requires that those involved desire, at some level, an end to violence. Israel most certainly does not desire an end to violence. They benefit greatly from the illusion of conflict.

I sao illusion of conflict, because there is absolutely no way for the palestinian state to challenge Israel in any meaningful way militarially. While Israel is quite content to kill a few hundred or thousand civilians periodically to provoke retaliations that they can "relatiate" to.

Were Israel truely interested in peace, they would be better served ensuring that the palestinian state is a viable, cohesive entity, that has the infrastructure to sustain itself. Showering the area with aid, would have a far more deliterious effect on opposition to Israeli neighbourhood than any number of bullets and white phosphorous shells.

[Mourhelm]

First of all you have not shown anything other than that it sometimes isn't illegal to kill civilians while firing at military targets.

That's the case here.

Secondly, Israel is not firing at just military targets there have been reports that several mobile hospitals have been hit, as has one (to my knowledge) UN shelter in addition to that a multitude of facilities are hit just because they are associated with Hamas without having any military importance. Then there is of course the destruction of civilian property which is disallowed in article 53 in Geneva 4.

Striking the head of the organization is legitimate just as it will be legitimate to attack the Israeli prime minister or IDF's chief of staff. These targets have military importance since they command the military.

If a shelter has tons of weapons in it, it is a weapon depot and is a legitimate military target.

Other than that I believe that the use of white phosphor against houses is a clear breach as well.

That is a breach. I don't believe that Israel is using this kind of weaponry, but if it does, it is illegal.

Edit: I just saw that there were another bunch of illegitimate attacks. The headquarters of the UN Relief and Works Agency (with white phosphor shells). The al-Quds hospital, where over 500 patients were being treated. The building that houses the offices of Reuters and other media organizations was also attacked.

I didn't check the news in the last couple of days so I can comment on this one.

Most of the time when you say something was hit you neglect some vital information (like the fact that it was a weapon depot or that Hamas was firing from that location).

If what you are saying is 100% correct, I condemn those attacks. Remember that even the best accuracy weapon misses sometimes and that on the field of battle humans make mistakes. That is regrettable but doesn't not show intent.

I don't understand why you keep going on about hamas' responsibility when nobody is arguing about that? It is obvious that Hamas should be doing a lot of things that aren't being done, but Israel has a responsibility not to kill civilians. When 50% of the people killed are civilians that responsibility is not taken seriously.

I disagree. Israel takes that responsibility seriously (proof for that is the ground assault - it's a lot safer just bombing Gaza to dust). The responsibility not to kill civilians doesn't mean that we will sit quietly while Hamas is killing our civilians just because they are shielded by theirs.

What you are doing is legitimising the use of human shields.

Hamas is doing the exact opposite! One example is the firing from the UN school.

That would be the Israeli version... I am more inclined to believe an impartial organization than the ones who were firing at them.

You've seen the video that they did that at least once before. It is not in Israel's interest to attack civilians or the UN.

But as I said in my first post, at the end, every one will believe what they want regardless of the truth (we only have bits and pieces of it in a pile of lies anyway)

There are less Israeli casualties because Hamas is fighting with the equivalent of sticks and stones.

Here's a partial list of "sticks and stones":

• long-range 122mm rockets (Grad)
• Qassam rockets
• Sagger missiles
• RPG rockets
• Konkurs missiles
• Mortars
• SA-7 shoulder missiles
• various antiaircraft machineguns
• IEDs (Improvised Explosive Device)
• Machine guns and rifles

So by your logic, Israel is just using more accurate sticks and stones.

---------

So during the Siege of Leningrad, when the Germans bombed the city, it was the Soviets fault for defending the city and thus leading to the deaths of millions of civilians, right? It was the Russians fault that they decided to set up defenses around the gateways of the city. Also, it was Churchill and his cabinet members fault that they lived in London and caused all the civilians to die during the Blitzkrieg bombings? According to you, that'd be using human shields too, right?

For some reason you seem to think that the military presence in a city makes the whole city a legitimate target. That conception is wrong.

The fact that Churchill and his cabinet members lived in London didn't make the entire city a legitimate target.

Same thing with the Russians. The fact that they set up defences around the gateways doesn't make the entire city a legitimate target. If they had civilians at these gateways (which they probably didn't, unless these conscripted them) they are responsible for them.

Hamas, on the other hand, does not set up defences around the gateways. It sets up defences within civilian population and uses it as a shield.

If you are expecting Hamas to set up huts in the desert with big signs saying "bomb me, I'm here", that's not gonna happen.

I'm not expecting that. Why would I?

If they want to fire from someone's house, they should at the very least evacuate the neighborhood (especially when they know that secondary explosions from their own ammo can cause even greater collateral damage).

Agree with AFKain on this one. UN maybe useless and, in my views, partly responsible for this mess, but they don't generally lie.

See my reply to him (above).

[stoffi]

Irgun, shorthand for Irgun Tsvai Leumi was a paramilitary Zionist group that operated in the British Mandate of Palestine from 1931 to 1948. In Israel, this group is consistently referred to Etzel, a contraction of the Hebrew initials. It was classified by British authorities as a "terrorist organization" but many regarded it to be a "liberation movement".


While the strategy, tactics, and operational methods of the organization changed through the years, its primary goals were to: Provide a non-Socialist alternative to the leading Zionist organizations; Eliminate or reduce the threat of Arab attacks on Jewish targets by assured and harsh retaliation for such attacks; Bring to an end the British mandatory rule, which they considered in violation of international law
From its inception, the group went through several phases in its short lifespan.


During the Great Uprising (1936-1939), in which about 400 Jews were killed in Arab attacks, Irgun resumed its reprisal attacks against Arabs. Following the killing of five Jews at Kibbutz Qiryat Anavim on November 9, 1937, Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the beginning of World War II, in which more than 250 Arab civilians were killed.
These attacks coincided roughly with Irgun's campaign of facilitating immigration of European Jews who faced discrimination, murder and pogroms in Europe. The first vessel arrived on April 13, 1937, and the last on February 13, 1940. All told, about 18,000 Jews escaped genocide in Europe in this way.


From 1940 through 1943, Irgun declared a truce against the British, and supported Allied efforts against Nazi forces and Arab allies in the area by enlisting its members in British forces and the Jewish Brigade. A small group group lead by Avraham Stern, who insisted on continuing to fight the British, broke off and formed and independent group (LEHI). In 1941, the Irgun leader, David Raziel volunteered for a dangerous mission in Iraq to assassinate Amin al-Husayni, but was killed by a German bomber before the operation could be finished. In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to bring public attention to the cost and ineffectiveness of the British mandatory rule. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves. The Irgun leadership ultimately responded to these executions by hanging two British sergeants, which effectively brought the executions to an end.


Following the murder of Lord Moyne by Lehi, the Yishuv and Jewish Agency initiated "The Hunting Season" on Irgun and the Lehi group, facilitating the arrest of some 1000 members of those organizations who were interned in British camps. The British deported 251 of them to camps in Africa.
From about October of 1945 until July 1946 Irgun was in an alliance with the Haganah and Lehi called the Jewish Resistance Movement, organized to fight British restrictions on Jewish immigration. This alliance ended when Irgun bombed British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel as a retaliation for Operation Agatha.


Legacy of Irgun: Leaders within the mainstream Jewish Agency, Haganah, and Histadrut, as well as British authorities, routinely condemned Irgun operations as "terrorist" and branded it as an "illegal organization". In their defense, former Irgun leaders assert that: The premises for their founding and strategy were vindicated by subsequent events. Arab violence against Jews in the mandate of Palestine could only be deterred through retaliation; the British authorities only ended their restrictions on Jewish immigration when pressured by force; and unrestricted Jewish immigration was a matter of saving lives, both during the Shoah and during post-World War II pogroms in Poland and the Ukraine.



Operations that are usually characterized as "terrorist" had another character. The King David Hotel attack was considered a legitimate military target, being the British military headquarters; the attack on Deir Yassin was part of a campaign to control the road between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv; the attack on the Acre prison was to release prisoners the British intended to hang. At least one of the attacks plainly made against civilians was unauthorized by the Irgun.




Just wanted to clear up stoffis comments on Jewish terrorist which is a cotradiction in terms considering while these newly formed Jewish military organizations were fighting for the survival of thier race throughout the world at the time of all out effort by Arabs and Nazi's alike to destroy them and at the same time British policies tried to tie thier hands to respond to these events.


Those Jewish entities attacked/retaled against arab attacks and a British mandate that was crippiling thier ability to respond to arab attacks.

Once again stoffi your on the wrong side of the fence with this one.

Lol, and who wrote that, Menachem Begin? :) Show me the source. It's certainly not wiki(which isn't a good source), because they also list the massacres Irgun performed. On wiki, Irgun was first posted as a terrorist group btw, but then suddenly changed to underground group.... Which is very wrong. They did everything a terrorist group does, targetted civilians, killing all they can.
If targetting civilians on purpose is not terrorism, then what is?

Irgun was not labelled as a terrorist group only by the british, but as Hamas now is labelled terrorists, by the world.

I will look up some Irgun massacres for you afterwards, bus bombings, cafe bombings, village slaughters, the time they butchered most of the workers on a plant, etc etc. They were the jewish Hamas you can say, religious fanatics who use every weapon they could to win their cause.
But there was a huge difference. Hamas fights against occupation, Irgun fought to STEAL land and drive off a people. Irgun was part of an occupant fraction, not freedom fighters.

Irgun has NEVER been looked upon as something else than a terrorist group.

You're trying to glorify a group who targetted civilians, MASSACRED civilians, even jews that were against them. You're spitting on history by posting this.

And it's no telling who started the terror, palestinian groups or jewish groups. I would very much like to see your source btw, like I already said.

[Nemo]

Most of the time when you say something was hit you neglect some vital information (like the fact that it was a weapon depot or that Hamas was firing from that location).

How can you be sure they are there? Remember US and WMDs? I don't doubt Hamas has rockets. But intelligence can be faulty.

I disagree. Israel takes that responsibility seriously (proof for that is the ground assault - it's a lot safer just bombing Gaza to dust).

A little late, isn't it? If you had sent them in earlier, lots of civilian deaths may have been avoided. And it could also have countered faulty intelligence.

Remember that even the best accuracy weapon misses sometimes and that on the field of battle humans make mistakes. That is regrettable but doesn't not show intent.

They seem to be missing an awful lot. This could have been avoided if a ground attack had been launched. But of course, that would hurt the Israeli governments standing with it's own people and mess up the upcoming elections, which the ruling party seems set to win since this operation is going so well. There are people inside Israel who believe this is a PR scam by the ruling politicians.

For some reason you seem to think that the military presence in a city makes the whole city a legitimate target. That conception is wrong.

No, I don't think the city becomes a legitimate target. But your logic makes it seem so. Tell me, what does a city contain? Apartments, residential areas, schools, universities, hospitals, temples/churches/mosques, commercial area, markets, etc. Which one of the above have you not bombed yet?

If a shelter has tons of weapons in it, it is a weapon depot and is a legitimate military target.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=19325
Check the fifth cartoon from the top, the one with two Israeli soldiers and shoes.

[allonons]

Stoffi the bottom line is they were considered paramilitary ...every source you look at you will see those who consider them as terrorist were the British and
(others) who were the others?I know why the British considered then terrorist (because they faught back) but who are the others you se listed all the time?

As soon as Israel became a state they were intergrated into what is now the IDF...

So with your reasoning every fledgling army were terrorist throughout history lol ....I posted specifically thier missions all of which was in response to attacks on Jews or mandates on Jews by the British that would have taken away thier push for statehood.

Now lets say I agree with you for aurgumnts sake....(all fledging armies are terrorist)so in terms all armies who now stand our terrorist....ok fine.

I can't wait to see the Israeli terrorist straff and bomb Hamas and Hezbullah parades ,wonder why they have not done that yet????


You know dam well the Israelis could wipe out Gaza and any other area in the middle east with a push of a button ....so why have not the Isralei terrorist not done so?


As Patton once said I'd rather kill for my country than die for it!

Your a bleeding heart Stoffi ...just make sure you do not draw any funny cartoons of the terrorist religious leaders or they will hunt you down...lol

A country brought to it's politically correct knees by a cartoon ...now thats funny.

[Mourhelm]

Given the abundence of information available from trustworthy sources, there is no plausible doubt that Israel has a deliberate policy of targetting the civilian populations of the palestinian areas.

If that was true, there would be a lot more civilian deaths. Israel targets Hamas. Hamas uses human shields which raise their civilian casualties count.

Such targetting does not always take the form of guns and bombs, though we have seen far far too much direct murder of civilians by the armed forces - as has been pointed out, actions that would be deemed to be war crimes, were they not perpetrated by a "friend of the west".

There is no war crime in targeting military targets. It is Hamas's responsibility to take the civilians away from its military operations. Israel tries to minimize the civilian casualties, but it can't guarantee 0 civilian losses.

The palestinians are also targetted by economic weapons, the theft of high grade land

Israel left the Gaza strip a long time ago. What high grade land are you talking about?

the disruption of transport

Again, what exactly are you talking about?

deliberate perpetuation of states of poverty and deprvation of the essential s for sustinence of life.

That's Hamas's doing, not Israel's. They are the ones choosing to buy weapons instead of providing essentials for their people.

It is unsurprising that enforcing such conditions on a population breeds resentment, breeds anger, breeds the potential for violence. I wonder if there were any area in the world that would not react similarly under such restrictions. My belief is that there is not.

You might be right on that one. Only problem is that you're putting blame at the wrong place.

Hamas likes the Palestinian in poverty because that makes it easier for them to control the population.

Peace is a word often bandied about, and often sought by leaders and representatives of nations not directly involved, but no peace is presently possible. Peace requires that those involved desire, at some level, an end to violence. Israel most certainly does not desire an end to violence.

Israel does want an end to the violence. That's why it retaliates the attack on its civilians. If we did nothing, they had just kept on firing and you know that.

They benefit greatly from the illusion of conflict.

What exactly is the benefit?

I sao illusion of conflict, because there is absolutely no way for the palestinian state to challenge Israel in any meaningful way militarially. While Israel is quite content to kill a few hundred or thousand civilians periodically to provoke retaliations that they can "relatiate" to.

Reality proves otherwise. The fact that Hamas has small achievements doesn't mean they are not a threat.

Were Israel truely interested in peace, they would be better served ensuring that the palestinian state is a viable, cohesive entity, that has the infrastructure to sustain itself. Showering the area with aid, would have a far more deliterious effect on opposition to Israeli neighbourhood than any number of bullets and white phosphorous shells.

Over the years the area has been showered with aid from practically everywhere in the world (Israel included).

These are old, but they show you what happens to the aid you think will solve the situation.

http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=3608&lg=en
http://articles.latimes.com/1998/aug/10/local/me-11860
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=1

Hamas might be less corrupt. But, as I said before, instead of using funds to provide essentials to their people, they chose to buy weapons and go to war.

[allonons]

Stoffi you go cantact your terroist buddies and tell them to put on a uniform and stand opposed just like other armies.

If they choose not to adhere with the laws and customs of war as stated in the Geneva Convention /Hague Conventions /Geneva Protocol ,then so be it let them and all those around them die due to thier actions.


Article 3 states that even where there is not a conflict of international character the parties must as a minimum adhere to minimal protections described as: noncombatants, members of armed forces who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, with the following prohibitions:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
Article 4 defines who is a Protected person: Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals. But it explicitly excludes Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJX...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_OGhj43GAE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmO3w...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yCQz...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg3-m...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAWm_...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrHif...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prIiG...eature=related

Have fun watching the wonderful world of Hamas in action against thier so called own people........

[stoffi]

Stoffi the bottom line is they were considered paramilitary ...every source you look at you will see those who consider them as terrorist were the British and
(others) who were the others?I know why the British considered then terrorist (because they faught back) but who are the others you se listed all the time?

As soon as Israel became a state they were intergrated into what is now the IDF...

So with your reasoning every fledgling army were terrorist throughout history lol ....I posted specifically thier missions all of which was in response to attacks on Jews or mandates on Jews by the British that would have taken away thier push for statehood.

Now lets say I agree with you for aurgumnts sake....(all fledging armies are terrorist)so in terms all armies who now stand our terrorist....ok fine.

I can't wait to see the Israeli terrorist straff and bomb Hamas and Hezbullah parades ,wonder why they have not done that yet????


You know dam well the Israelis could wipe out Gaza and any other area in the middle east with a push of a button ....so why have not the Isralei terrorist not done so?


As Patton once said I'd rather kill for my country than die for it!

Your a bleeding heart Stoffi ...just make sure you do not draw any funny cartoons of the terrorist religious leaders or they will hunt you down...lol

A country brought to it's politically correct knees by a cartoon ...now thats funny.

I would like to see this "every source will say the same". You have yet to provide a source. For all I know, this is from www.Iloveisrael.com or www.killpalestinians.org.
Every source does NOT say what you say, that is very untrue.
Irgun was a terror organization who targetted civilians.

Some of the better-known attacks by Irgun were the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (accomplished together with the Stern Gang) on 9 April 1948. In the West, Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times newspaper,[2][3], The Times (of London) [4][5], the British Broadcasting Corporation [6], the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry[7], and prominent world and Jewish figures, such as Winston Churchill[8], Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and many others.[9] Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare".[10]

Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party. Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977.

The Deir Yassin massacre refers to the killing of between 107 and 120 Palestinian villagers

Here are some of the terror actions Irgun performed:

Date Casualties Comments
March, 1937 2 Arabs killed on Bat-Yam beach[citation needed] -
April 12, 1938 2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa. -
April 17, 1938 An Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa -
May 17, 1938 An Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road. -
May 24, 1938 3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa. -
June 23, 1938 2 Arabs were killed near Tel-Aviv. -
June 26, 1938 7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa. -
June 27, 1938 An Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa. -
Late June, 1938 Unspecified number of Arabs killed by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Jerusalem. [10] -
July 5, 1938 7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel-Aviv. -
On the same day 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem. -
On the same day an Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem. -
July 6 1938 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab Melon market in Haifa. -
July 8, 1938 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem. -
July 16, 1938 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem. -
July 25, 1938 53 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. -
August 26, 1938 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa. -
February 27, 1939 33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa
and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem. -
May 29, 1939 5 Arabs were killed by a mine detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem. -
On the same day 5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas. -
June 2, 1939 5 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem -
June 12, 1939 A post office in Jerusalem was bombed, killing a British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs. -
June 16, 1939 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem. -
June 19, 1939 20 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa. -
June 29, 1939 13 Arabs were killed in multiple shootings during one-hour period. -
June 30, 1939 An Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem. -
On the same day 2 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta. -
July 3, 1939 An Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. -
July 4, 1939 2 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem. -
July 20, 1939 An Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa. -
On the same day 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel-Aviv. -
On the same day 3 Arabs were killed in Rehovot. -
August 27, 1939 2 British officers were killed by a mine in Jerusalem. -
September 27, 1944 ~150 Irgun members attacked four British police stations; unknown number of casualties [11] -
September 29, 1944 senior British police officer of the Criminal Intelligence Department assassinated in Jerusalem [11] -
July 22, 1946 King David Hotel Bombing; 91 fatalities, most civilians -- 41 Arabs, 17 Jews, and 15 British [12]

Irgun seems to be the first to use donkey suicide bombers....

As you see, Irgun executed terrorist actions and can therefore be classified as a terror group. Or do you feel it is legit to bomb hotels, as long as jews do it and not Hamas?

My source is Wikipedia, look up "irgun" and you'll find it all there.

And I'll repeat:

Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by the New York Times[2][3], the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry[4], and prominent world and Jewish figures, such as Winston Churchill[5], Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and many others[6].

[stoffi]

Today, the UN hq was bombed and all their supplies lost. A big red cross hospital was also bombed, and 500 patients are now trapped inside the ruins while the hospital is burning.
All supplies are destroyed.

The UN and the Red Cross condemn the bombings and says it is surely WAR CRIMES and clearly against international law.

This is terror, simple as that. You can't bomb civilian and humanitarian targets on purpose. This is the 4th hospital they bomb.


Edit: Btw, many of you claim Hamas is responsible for the civilian casualties because they hide among civilians, which is ofc bs.
But in these UN buildings/schools that now have been bombed, was alot of civilian refugees who AVOIDED being where Hamas was. Refugees were also gathered at the hospital. But Israel bombed anyways.
So where can civilians hide? Israel will find them and bomb them anyways.
The UN hq contained 700 civilians, 700!

[Mourhelm]

How can you be sure they are there? Remember US and WMDs? I don't doubt Hamas has rockets. But intelligence can be faulty.

You're right. Intelligence can be faulty. But when you see the secondary explosions you hit the right target.

The fact that people make mistakes doesn't mean the intent is to kill civilians.

A little late, isn't it? If you had sent them in earlier, lots of civilian deaths may have been avoided. And it could also have countered faulty intelligence.

We talked about it already. It's a matter of cost and effect and risk assessment.

When looking at the contingencies, starting a ground assault without an aerial assault was a lot less cost effective. You don't have to be a genius to know that a lot more soldiers will die with an aerial assault ahead of them.

I don't see a reason to lose thousands of Israeli soldiers to save a few civilians.

Now that it's cost effective, we risk tens of ours soldiers to save a few civilians.

They seem to be missing an awful lot. This could have been avoided if a ground attack had been launched.

The ones that are missing are our ground forces... They are also the ones that killed some of our soldiers with friendly fire. Aerial attacks are much more precise. However, when you hit a weapon depot that has a lot of explosives in it, it causes a lot of collateral damage. That is the reason you think the air strikes are so much worse.

But of course, that would hurt the Israeli governments standing with it's own people and mess up the upcoming elections, which the ruling party seems set to win since this operation is going so well. There are people inside Israel who believe this is a PR scam by the ruling politicians.

Elections were not determined by the end date of the cease fire.

No, I don't think the city becomes a legitimate target. But your logic makes it seem so. Tell me, what does a city contain? Apartments, residential areas, schools, universities, hospitals, temples/churches/mosques, commercial area, markets, etc. Which one of the above have you not bombed yet?

When you put rockets and other weaponry in these places you make them military targets.

When you fire from these places, you make them military targets.

If Israel would have shot it's artillery fire from a civilian location, would you said it wasn't the military shooting and that the target is protected?

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=19325
Check the fifth cartoon from the top, the one with two Israeli soldiers and shoes.

I'll go with one vs one:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/blo...ne_cartoon.gif

[AFKain]

That's the case here.

I don't agree with that, as I see it it is clear that article 28 is supposed to be an exception from the rule. More like "we will still attack your airbase even if you bring a civilian there" rather than "I heard that someone saw a rocket in/near that orphanage, where are my bombers?".

Striking the head of the organization is legitimate just as it will be legitimate to attack the Israeli prime minister or IDF's chief of staff. These targets have military importance since they command the military.

Did you read that Post article I linked you to? The one where "Israeli Military Officials" are quoted saying something to the effect that facilities with loose links to Hamas were chosen as targets not because it would have any military impact but because it would have a psychological impact?

I mean seriously, a bunch of newly graduated police officers? A university?

That is a breach. I don't believe that Israel is using this kind of weaponry, but if it does, it is illegal.

Many independent individuals of aid organizations have reported that this is being done, I think there were some reference to that in the links I posted earlier. Times claimed it had evidence of many people that had been exposed to the substance.

Most of the time when you say something was hit you neglect some vital information (like the fact that it was a weapon depot or that Hamas was firing from that location).

If what you are saying is 100% correct, I condemn those attacks. Remember that even the best accuracy weapon misses sometimes and that on the field of battle humans make mistakes. That is regrettable but doesn't not show intent.

I am not aware of any information that makes the attacks I talk about allowed, if I were I wouldn't be bringing this up. About intent, indifference to the risk of misses or mistakes is a form of intent as well. I think there are far too many targets that should not have been hit for them all to be mistakes.

What you are doing is legitimising the use of human shields.

Surely I can not be legitimizing anything when I keep repeating that it is illegal...

You've seen the video that they did that at least once before. It is not in Israel's interest to attack civilians or the UN.

I'm not sure what video you're referring to, I've been without Internet for a while but I tried to read up in the thread. I can't recall any other video than that one about international law. I agree though, I don't think that it should be in Israel's interest either, but civilians are dying nonetheless.

Here's a partial list of "sticks and stones":

• long-range 122mm rockets (Grad)
• Qassam rockets
• Sagger missiles
• RPG rockets
• Konkurs missiles
• Mortars
• SA-7 shoulder missiles
• various antiaircraft machineguns
• IEDs (Improvised Explosive Device)
• Machine guns and rifles

So by your logic, Israel is just using more accurate sticks and stones.

The point was that the Palestinian weapons are much inferior to the Israeli ones, which explains the big difference in casualties. War ships, airplanes, artillery and tanks in addition to the standard stick.

I read last week (Times) that those rockets that were the reason for this catastrophe killed 20 people in 8 years. At a 2.5 kills per year it'd mean that in order to catch up with the civilians Israel has killed in 3 weeks Hamas would have to send rockets for 200 years...

Speaking of civilian deaths, is it any surprise that extremist organizations like Hamas get the support of people when Israeli military is dealing out death to all people alike? I don't see how this attack could have any long-term benefits from Israeli perspective, disregarding the increased political support for hawkish groups like hamas and the likely increase in their recruitment base this attack eliminates any chance of some kind of peaceful resolution in the foreseeable future.

[allonons]

Combined U.S. military and economic assistance to Israel has reached $100 billion since Israel's founding in 1948, according to the U.S. Embassy.

The Palestinians also have been recipients of large sums of international assistance in recent years. The Palestinians, who have suffered an economic meltdown during the past five years of violence, are getting roughly $1 billion a year, mostly for urgent needs such as food and housing for families who lost homes in the fighting.

The Palestinians say they will need much larger sums to help develop the impoverished Gaza Strip following the Israeli withdrawal.

At the Group of 8 summit meeting of industrialized nations last week in Scotland, the participants agreed in principle on the sum of $3 billion annually during each of the next three years for the Palestinians


Thats roughly 4 billion a year in aid per year ...twice that of the aid given to Israel over the span of its statehood on avarage ...and for what just so these people can by arms to terrorize Israel? Nope it's got to end ,I'm tired of given my taxes to peolpe who don't have the guts to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and sieze control from thier extermeist movements....

Any and all fledging states who rule by religious, extremeist and militaritstic doctrine will only find themselves isolated from the rest of the world or destroyed which ever comes first.

[allonons]

Wrong again Stoffi go back to the begining.



Organized Arab Terrorism Begins in 1920

March 1,1920: In an attack by large numbers of Arabs from the village of Halsa, 8 Jews were killed at Tel Hai, including Josef Trumpeldor.



April 25, 1920: Following the murder by Arabs of a Jewish settler, the whole settlement of Bnei Yehuda (east of the Sea of Galilee) was abandoned.


Other settlements attacked by Arab terrorists in March and April 1920: Ayelet Hashahar, Mishmar HaYarden, Mahanayim, Rosh Pina, Sharona, Kfar Tavor, Degania, and Menahemya.

As a result of repeated attacks by Arab terrorists in 1920, a number of other Jewish agricultural settlements were evacuated, including Metulla, Kfar Giladi, and Hamara.

Attacks Continue in May 1921:

May 1921: Arabs attack Jews in Rehovot, Jerusalem, Jaffa, Petah Tikva and Haifa.
May 1921: Arabs attack Jewish Quarter of the Old City

Widespread Arab Attacks August 23 - 26, 1929

On August 23, 1929, over a thousand Arabs in three main groups emerged from the old city of Jerusalem and attacked any Jew they could catch in several of the Jewish quarters of the city, and in its suburbs. Attacks on Jews quickly spread throughout Palestine. By nightfall of August 26, 133 Jews had been killed and 339 wounded, including:

In Hebron, 59 Jewish men, women and children were killed on August 24. In one house alone, 23 were killed and then dismembered; many others were tortured and maimed.

20 Jews killed in Safed — mostly children and old people. 32 wounded, several tortured.

7 Jews killed in Hadar Hacarmel.

In Motza, 6 Jews killed, including 2 children and a rabbi.

In Tel Aviv, 6 Jews killed. 2 Jews killed in Beer-Toviya. Settlement looted and then set on fire.

Settlement of Ekron looted and then destroyed.

Beit HaKerem attacked.

1 Jew killed in Hulda.

Onslaught of Arab Terror, 1936:

April 15, 1936: 2 Jews in Tulkarm killed by Arabs.
April 19: 9 Jews in Jaffa killed by Arabs.
April 20: 5 Jews in Jaffa killed by Arabs.
April 22: Jewish woman in Jaffa killed by Arabs.
April 26: Jewish houses in Nazareth and Beit Shean burned by Arabs.
April 26: An Arab mob beats up Jewish boy in Jerusalem.
April 28: 4 Jewish farm workers in Migdal injured by Arabs.
April 29: Arabs burn down a Jewish forest in Balfouriya.
April 29: Arab mob forms in Jerusalem, but British police break it up before Jews harmed.
May 1: 2 Jews in Haifa killed by Arabs.
May 3: Arab mob burns down Jewish timber yard in Haifa.
May 4: Jewish orchards in Mishmar Ha-Emek burned by Arabs.
May 4: Arabs destroy 200 acres of wheat in Ramat David.
May 5: 500 orange trees uprooted in Tel Mond by Arabs.
May 7: Arabs fire on Jewish bus in Beit Dagan.
May 10: Arabs burn crops and haystacks in Givat Ada.
May 10: Arabs uproot newly planted olive grove in Zikhron Yaakov.
May 11: Arabs burn Jewish crops in Ramat David.
May 12: Arabs burn threshing floor in Zikhron Yaakov.
May 13: 2 elderly Jews murdered by Arabs in Old City.
May 13: Jewish shops in Haifa stoned by Arabs.
May 13: More orchards burned in Mishmar Ha-Emek.
May 16: 3 Jews in Jerusalem shot dead by Arabs while coming out of a cinema.
May 19: Arabs kill a Jew in the Old City of Jerusalem.
May 20: 2 Jews wounded during Arab attack on bus.
May 24: Arabs severely wound a Jewish guard at Majd el Krum.
May 25: Arabs kill a Jew at Hebrew University.

From May 30 - June 13, 1936, in more than 11 attacks, the Arabs destroy over 15,000 trees planted by Jews, as well as many crops and barns.

May 31: Jew at Givat Shaul killed by Arabs.
June 1: Jewish bus passenger killed by Arab rifle fire.
June 5: 5 Jewish passengers injured when Arabs threw bomb at bus in Haifa.
June 6: Jewish girl severely injured by Arab fire while traveling on bus.
June 8: Arabs attack Jews on their way to the Dead Sea Potash works.

In the third month of terror (June 16 - July 17) campaign, 9 Jews were killed, mostly in Arab ambushes on buses, and 75,000 trees planted by Jews were destroyed.

From mid-July to Sept 22, attacks increased. In over 27 attacks, 33 Jews were killed, several hundred wounded, many in ambushes while driving unarmed. Other attacks include:

July 23: 9 Jewish children injured in Arab bomb attack on religious school in Jerusalem.

August 13: Jewish father and his 3 children killed by bomb thrown by Arabs through window of their home in Safed.

August 17: 2 Jewish nurses and young Jewish girl killed by Arabs in Tel Aviv.

September 19, 1936: Arab bomb kills 7 year old Jewish child in Tiberias



[Above data on Arab terrorism came from Martin Gilbert's Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

[allonons]

We can go on throwing out these numbers for weeks on end but you still have not answered my question Stoffi.....?????

Why has not the Palestinians demanded thier land back from Jordan?

[TheMistressOfBaal]

Your question is a red herring Allanons, but just once, I'll bite.

Jordan has not engaged in a systematic policy of killing palestinian civilians in sizable numbers for decades.