KT vs HaLL

[Zauper]

itsa:
Its funny how the people in zaupers kd cant even get their story straight. Some say there never was a NAP. If thats the case why did allanon go to the trouble of breaking the NAP with us? Why...20 hours earlier did he talk about how he was so exhausted, but was happy to get the deal completed? Seriously, you weaken your whole argument. Secondly, there never was to be a retal. There was no deal at the time, you were just an enemy kingdom. Your kd wanted land back, but we were "a team now" so a TARGET was going to be supplied for your kingdom to hit. That was agreed upon, and it was blatantly clear that there would never be a retal. I got logs if you need em.

Itsa is confused. It was agreed that we would be given a retal -- we insisted on it as a term of the NAP. Because the target we had been given -- hours before -- was 30-40% smaller and had no kd/prov intel.

Go ahead and post a log of the entirety of the negotiations. The log you're thinking of is likely between asmo/caid/allanon, and occured a) before I logged on, and b) before the negotiations occured. That is the target itsa is referring to when he says:

HaLL tried to make a CF and Odyssey / KT agreed to it under the condition that they give a FAIR and PROPER retal
To clarify what they offered up, they offered a tiny target that would only yield about 50-60% of the acres TAKEN. Odyssey never received a proper retal and so the conditions for BEGINNING the CF were never met and thus there was NO CF to break. But, because HaLL is well HaLL and so feeble minded they did not and still do not understand fairness, justice, or reality.

MrCaid:
zaupers NW wasnt dropping when he left FW. Sorry I didnt clarify, but that is the period of time I was referring to when allanon talked about the "massive ops" from 4:11. I didn't have much time at the moment or I would have quoted.

Like I said, the ops from HoGA came before force ever got waved..and it was just like, 10 meteors done by 2 people. Then when they realized zauper wasnt coming for their kingdom, they decided to enter a war (not a fake), in order to get out of the way. At the time odyssey was hostile to them, but had no relations in return. And don't act like you had no idea who HoGA was, you had our locations....and passed them to absalom, sooo...I assume you would have known as well. The fact that you stayed in aggressive and gave them over a week worth of hostile is your own fault.

Actually, HoGA fireballed me during that time as well.

No...force did not hit the largest killer, they hit the 3rd largest. And no, it wasnt semi chained afterwards. Gazardiel was, the halfling. The elf is who you refer to, and that was a return hit for attacking into hoz war earlier. Furthermore, it didnt drop the elf into breakable range. He already was in breakable range but we went with the halfling because he was worse at soaking up damage. So, basically the only thing that happened here is that force hit into your war once to return the favor of zauper hitting into hoz war. We've been over this ground.

For the sake of accuracy, Gazardiel was the second largest province in the kd, and Lailah third. Generally, you wouldn't have referred to me as a 'killer' (unless merely having offense qualifies as being a killer), making him the second largest killer ;p.

Additionally, while you hit Gaz later, you did in fact hit Lailah again that hour.

I didn't hit hoz in war. No one did. I made two hits on CGG, both in no relations. I think you're referring to the hit I made into HoH when they were in FW. FWs and real wars are different. Sorry.

March 24, YR2 Run Cows Run (8:28) captured 311 acres from Lailah (15:14).
March 24, YR2 Duk Gu Kao Bai (2:30) captured 272 acres from Lailah (15:14).

[Allanon KT]

HaLL started the OOW hits, both real and fake. No OOW hits were made by any member of KT into any war real or fake, and no OOH hits were knowingly made, and as per our code of ethics, any such hits would have had to been cleared by me personally first else the person/kd involved would have been expelled. We don't do that **** under anything except exceptional circumstances. The OOW/OOFW hits only started once Zauper left KT.

As for my statement, if you read the OP, I explain quite clearly that statement was prepared under instructions by HaLL to meet very specific criteria, else they would not accept our withdrawl from the conflict.

Itsa, I told Zauper from the word go that if his KD voted to reject the terms, I would too and would stand by them. However, that was when you voted to leave KT, and we didn't see much point in jeprodising the entire alliance for a kingdom that had just rejected us, as much as I consider Zap and Caid mates. So it's not so much I "let the terrorists win" as I let the prodigal son face the fate he had brought on himself by going astray, if you'll pardon the comparison

Path, or whoever you really are, as I said in the OP, the details of the target were discussed in PM, so I was not privy to them. However, I was told in no uncertain terms the target provided for Odyssey's prov to "get it's land back from" would have provided less than half the land originally taken. There is no doubt in my mind that would contravene the concept of "getting his land back". Therefore, like it or not, that was a breached terms. No suitable target was supplied, and no retal was organised in it's place, despite our raised concerns. At the time, we let it go in the interests of peace. However, when it became clear to us that other terms were being breached, it became rather more important

[Hurlin]

**** SNIP ****


has led me to feel that I was manipulated by HaLL into makeing a statement to absolve them, only to have them recommence targeting us after the cf.

**** SNIP ****

now I no longer see the point in abiding by HaLL's gag-order.

**** SNIP ****

wow thats pretty shamefull actually

You should have stood by your principles even if it does meen a firey hell for an age at least it would show you have back bone.

**** SNIP ****

if ABS, KLA, NH, etc. and all the other people that have been done wrong by HaLL (99.9% of Utopia) got together and just killed them all off...

**** SNIP ****

Please dont add us into THAT list ......... and you should really find out where all the alliances stand and just dont take it as granted everyone hates HaLL because you do.

[dev]

Whine thread and a quite hilarious one aswell imo.

[MorbidAngel]

imo

[Allanon KT]

wow thats pretty shamefull actually

You should have stood by your principles even if it does meen a firey hell for an age at least it would show you have back bone.

as I said, I was prepared to. However, when zauper's kd left KT, we didn't see the point in taking the fall with a kingdom that had just gone and abandoned us, so we cut a deal. A deal that HaLL seems to have reneged on (no surprises there, I guess...)

[Asmodeus]

you want Facts ?

I approached Allanon with this offer because of a friendship that he has had with myself and Darkmoore for some time. Zauper was next on our our list of banks to take down. and when that idiot lurg flamed me in PMs after i hit him.. that's when i realized what kd it was and zauper was in Allanon's group.

They say they wanted a retal on Force??!?!?

[10:22] <zapanap> DM, is there a way to throw up an ingame CF btwn us and 8:28?

lol.. he was told several times he wasn't going to get a retal in Force or any HaLL kd and he still wanted the CF !!!

you say that Darkmoore and Caid were the one that discussed the target issue?

FALSE!!!

Session Start: Wed Aug 12 07:22:44 2009
Session Ident: Mr_Caid
[07:22] <Asmodeus> hey
[07:22] <Asmodeus> i talked to him in 8:28
[07:23] <Asmodeus> Guillan Barre (4:28)
[07:23] <Asmodeus> he said that guy is in nw range of your lurg guy
[07:23] <Asmodeus> and biggest one in the kd
[07:23] <Mr_Caid> And defense?
[07:23] <Asmodeus> not sure can't get intel
[07:23] <Asmodeus> i asked him
[07:23] <Mr_Caid> You know, it's a bit odd to hit first and then talk about allies :P
[07:24] <Asmodeus> not sure why.. prolly got no mana on him
[07:24] <Asmodeus> well i happened to see the msg you sent him
[07:24] <Asmodeus> got me thinking hmm.. on irc.. did a little investigation and realized you were in my buddy Allanon's team
[07:25] <Asmodeus> so told them to chill out and i came to talk to him
[07:25] <Asmodeus> cause tbh in my eyes the bank race is something bigger than just 2 provs
[07:25] <Mr_Caid> k
[07:25] <Asmodeus> and friendship is something i value so i was happy when i realized that my friend allanon's team was doing well
[07:26] <Mr_Caid> He can get a better target on his own
[07:26] <Mr_Caid> I get back to you
[07:26] <Mr_Caid> have to work now
[07:26] <Asmodeus> ok new friend :)
[07:26] <Mr_Caid> ;)
[07:27] <Mr_Caid> Ttyl.
[07:27] <Asmodeus> kk cyas
Session Close: Wed Aug 12 15:09:44 2009


Caid said he'd find one on his own!!!! PROBLEM SOLVED .. so take your BS about us not living up to these so called terms..
Funny how you can give us terms when we were the one that approached you purely out of Friendship .. giving your Banks Asylum from the most powerful killer on the server at the time.

Zauper went along with this because he knew if he didn't he was going down.. and the first opportunity that he got.. he double crossed us!
some lame crap about us not keeping terms ???

and you want some terms for Sonata and benM after you were told benM was NOT HaLL
and we would not make them give any retals.. or make them do anything..
you were made aware of that.. and you still went ahead with this Deal.. only later to claim that was still a term EVEN THOUGH we did NOT agree to it?


and AFTER all this crap was Said and done..

Do NOT forget Allanon.. it was YOU who came to me! apologizing.
i did not have to feed any propaganda to you.. you came to me pal.

[path]

Now, lets see how two-faced Allanon really is. Heres his conversation after the zauper incident. I admit it is a bit long, but very entertaining. Do enjoy.

[03:23] <Allanon> it would appear you may have been correct about Zauper. His kd just left KT this morning
[03:23] <_> i saw
[03:24] <_> i analyzed that situation over and over and over again in my head
[03:24] <Allanon> damn, man. I'm sorry. I thought I could trust the guy. He was the one who gave us the shell for classic KT
[03:24] <_> and only 2 real possibilies came to my mind
[03:24] <_> either you and him teamed up and saw a plot to power play
[03:25] <_> or he was playing you like a puppet and you were sticking by your morals as an alliance leader.
[03:25] <Allanon> one of the risks of claiming to lead an ethical alliance, I guess. Sometimes, those ethics come back to bite you in the ass
[03:26] <Allanon> I just can't believe someone I've been mates with for so long would do this
[03:26] <_> i said that same thing about you.
[03:27] <_> zauper is kind of known for it though
[03:27] <_> which is why the thought that he was playing you was in our mind.
[03:27] <Allanon> well, I hope if nothing else I've proven something to you: when I give my word to protect someone, I stand by it
[03:29] <Allanon> and sorry for the rushed decision with the awar thing. Guess I know now why he was so adamant you guys intended to get involved
[03:30] <Allanon> should have waited and talked to you guys more about it, to make sure of your intentions, before making a decision like that
[03:30] <_> yep
[03:31] <_> truth is the new HaLL is alot different from old HaLL
[03:31] <Allanon> but zauper claimed to have been told by a trusted source you guys were allied to aabs
[03:31] <Allanon> and I took him at his word
[03:31] <_> well just like there were people in your dnh
[03:31] <_> that were also in our group
[03:31] <_> for banks/killers
[03:31] <_> not as an alliance
[03:32] <Allanon> that combined with what darkmoore said to me (probably without thinking it through, in retrospect) convinced me
[03:32] <Allanon> ugh... I feel like such an idiot
[03:33] <Allanon> need drink... big drink... got a large vase you're not using?
[03:33] <_> lol
[03:33] <_> give it time Allanon
[04:09] <_> ya know
[04:09] <_> i do have to say
[04:10] <_> i see that you think that making a public statement of what happened will ruin your chances of rebuilding KT
[04:10] <Allanon> Yeah. And I think I just upgraded from needing a large vase to a kitchen sink
[04:10] <_> but on the contrary i think that is your only option to save what honor KT had
[04:10] <Allanon> rapidly headed towards bathtub
[04:11] <_> making a statement of that sort .. may hurt yes.. but the honesty to what people already know.. might help you save some of that honor that KT has always had.
[04:14] <Allanon> As I've said, I will make a public apology for the premature and ill-advised cancellation of our deal, but admitting I was played so easy will probably ruin what little reputation I have left in this game
[04:15] <Allanon> certainly I can't see anyone wanting to follow someone who can be that easily manipulated
[04:15] <_> well nobody said you had to say you were manipulated
[04:15] <_> could be you say that you were betrayed by someone whom you believed to be a friend.
[04:16] <Allanon> [17:21] <Darkmoore> A) your actions does not say you want to be friend
[04:16] <Allanon> [17:22] <Darkmoore> you not making a statement about the socalled betrayal by Zauper does not show us it is real
[04:16] <Allanon> [17:22] <Darkmoore> C) Many people say that they think you again just play games with telling us Zauper is out
[04:16] <Allanon> he wants me to admit I was betrayd by zauper
[04:16] <_> it's true
[04:17] <Allanon> _, I cannot do that. Surely you can see that
[04:17] <_> well i have to agree.. in our eyes that is the only way to set in stone that you are real about this.
[04:18] <_> as i'm sure everyone knows .. you can either speak it or let people talk.
[04:18] <Allanon> it's one thing to admit to a hasty and premature cancellation of a deal based on bad information. it's another to admit you were played for a fool so easily
[04:18] <_> well people will think that regardless
[04:18] <_> it's your choice to put it in your words or the words of people talking.
[04:19] <_> and as i said before
[04:19] <_> it's no suprise
[04:19] <_> zauper is notorious for these kind of things
[04:19] <_> as i voiced my concerns to you about whispers previously
[04:20] <_> you saw how quickly they backed out of this deal.
[04:20] <_> the whole thing.
[04:20] <Allanon> there I actually believed you, and cut them out
[04:21] <_> heh
[04:21] <_> they were leaving anyways
[04:21] <Allanon> yeah, so it appears
[04:21] <Allanon> I found out after they were expecting an invote to anti-abs
[04:21] <Allanon> *invite
[04:28] <Allanon> very well. Would something like this be acceptable?:
[04:28] <Allanon> I would like to apologise to HaLL on the behalf of KT for the actions that have taken against them by former members of our alliance:
[04:28] <Allanon> The premature and ill-advised cancellation of the deal we made with them based on bad information supplied by these members
[04:28] <Allanon> The OOH hit from, and subsequent targeting of their kingdoms by, these members
[04:28] <Allanon> And lastly, my personally turning my back on those I called friends based on the words of someone who then betrayed me when I tried to fulfil my commitment to them as alliance leader
[04:28] <Allanon> I deeply regret my words and actions over the last week and a half, and hope they can find it in their hearts to forgive and forget, and continue in the friendship we had before these events
[04:29] <Allanon> change that last line:
[04:29] <Allanon> I deeply regret my words and actions over the last week and a half, and hope those I have wronged can find it in their hearts to forgive and forget, and continue in the friendship we had before these events
[04:37] <_> yes

If this is too long for some people to read, I will sum the whole message up:

[03:32] <Allanon> ugh... I feel like such an idiot
[04:14] <Allanon> As I've said, I will make a public apology for the premature and ill-advised cancellation of our deal, but admitting I was played so easy will probably ruin what little reputation I have left in this game
[04:15] <Allanon> certainly I can't see anyone wanting to follow someone who can be that easily manipulated

In short Allanon, you are a worm. In this conversation and later ones you attempt to throw zauper under a bus and distance yourself from him with the hopes of allying up with us again. That obviously wasn't going to happen anyhow due to your earlier actions. The way that you show your willingness to change horses midstream a few times further put a crimp into any possible relations between us.


I guess reality was too difficult for you to understand, so you delude yourself into thinking that you are our friend so quickly after burning us? Then you discover that you are in fact, NOT our friend. We attack you 2 days after our CF is over (you are the best target in the game) and your only retort is to once again, use the creative side of your brain to make stuff up. If you wanted to never have a problem with us, you should have made an age long CF. Oh wait, thats right, you already did, and then you broke it. So, I fail to see the point you are making here? Just showcasing how spineless you are?

We didn't force you to publically say anything except what you had already said to us.

[Asmodeus]

FACT #1 Zauper was scared of getting beaten down by big bad Force killer
FACT #2 Zauper was quite relieved when Big bad force killer turns out to be friend of Allanon
FACT #3 HaLL NEVER agreed to give zauper any retal for a hit that was made BEFORE the proposition ever occured.
FACT #4 Zauper took the CF / NAP opportunity to safely convert himself
FACT #5 Zauper broke the NAP by hitting several HaLL banks.. some even in active hostiles.
FACT #6 Zauper got pwnt
FACT #7 Zauper left KT
FACT #8 Allanon came to HaLL crying a river
FACT #9 HaLL feels bad for Allanon and gave him 2 week CF
FACT #10 CF ended and Allanon was a juicy target and got hit a couple times
FACT #11 Allanon cries and thinks it's personal.
FACT #12 Allanon posts bits and pieces of conversations together with a bunch of statements of propaganda to get people to hate HaLL.
FACT #13 Allanon will never be friends with us again.. as he wont be givin any more opprtunities to drag our name through the mud.

[Realest]

lol, i'm amused and entertained, this is great.

[Sir Nasty]

Allanon may have taken the easy way out but let us be clear that Zauper gave him idea and was willing to take the heat to help a friend out. They both felt they were in the right but when you are out manned and out gunned does it matter who is right?
Zauper and Allanon knew what was coming and made a practical decision to put blame on Zauper because it looked like HaLL was going to GB no matter what.
I am betting Allanon is more than regretting that decision now :)

I'm tired of the rest of the discussion but with or without this conflict, one thing remains clear, HaLL is an aggressive alliance that acts like one big kingdom instead of seperate kingdoms. Alliances are nothing new but usually more accepted when defensive. Once they begin working as one kingdom then they tip the balance of power way too much in their favor and eventually you will see a major backlash.
25 players, 1 kingdom. That is the game. Not 6 kingdoms sharing targets, retaling for each other, getting intel, double hostiles etc.. That is where HaLL is going wrong and that is what will bite them in the ass.

[Asmodeus]

Sir Nasty what you say makes no damn sense..

HaLL never did anything aggressive to Zauper or Allanon after a deal was made.. and even before only 1 random hit before we realized who they were.

it was zauper who broke NAP with aggressive actions.. and started attacking several different hall banks.. some even while they were in active hostile..

so what the hell are you talking about HaLL being an alliance that acts like 1 big kingdom..

that idiot broke an alliance wide NAP with us and started hitting banks in several different kingdoms
what the hell are we supposed to do ?
what the hell would you do if I started hitting all the biggest provinces in your alliance ?

[path]

Nasty, so you are saying that Allanon was lying to us all this time? Either he was lying or he was just a worm....which is it? Probably both. If he was lying to us the whole time then I guess that proves our suspicions all along? If Allanon and zauper conspire to lie to us about this, then the probably conspired to set us up on the earlier NAP deal as well.

Heres more fun Allanon chat:

[09:31] <_> hey
[09:31] <Allanon> heya
[09:32] <_> UHmm you said that the case was closed in your eyes
[09:32] <_> how comes?
[09:32] <Allanon> cos right about now, I'm pretty much convinced I got played by zauper and his kd
[09:32] <Allanon> they wouldn't vote to leave at a 24 to 1 majority otherwise
[09:32] <Allanon> plus looking back over things, it becomes pretty clear
[09:34] <_> That he ----ed you over major does not really change the fact he did it under the KT flag thou
[09:34] <Allanon> the convenient claim he had a trusted and reliable source infomring him you guys were allied to aabs, right about the point where he was able to smash the 13:33 cow
[09:34] <Allanon> I'm trying to say I was as much a victim in this as you were, _, and I'm sorry
[09:35] <Allanon> I'm sorry for the part I unknowingly played in allowing him to screw you over the way he did
[09:36] <_> I fear saying this in PM will still not do really...
[09:36] <Allanon> and I'm sorry for not giving you the trust I should have, and investigating further when he gave me that information
[09:36] <_> There will be an article..
[09:36] <_> You statement will however maybe not very different than from it would have before he ----ed you over again
[09:37] <Allanon> _, KT as an alliance has had no part in this. This was the actions and manipulations of a single kingdom
[09:37] <Allanon> however, I'm saying I cannot admit that publicly, that I was so easily manipulated
[09:37] <Allanon> it would ruin any chance we have of rebuilding
[09:37] <_> We made a deal with KT... and a member of KT brought this upon you
[09:38] <_> that they end the end decided to leave you is another thing

[09:53] <_> You want us to believe text?
[09:54] <_> Like you have wanted us too all the time?
[09:54] <Allanon> I have nothing else to offer
[09:54] <_> You do not want to offer anything else
[09:54] <_> You ----ed up major.. And do not want to correct it
[09:55] <Allanon> I'm prepared to offer an apology for cancelling the deal. I cannot offer an admission that I was betrayed by zauper
[09:55] <_> You have lost respect all over the server
[09:55] <Allanon> I know
[09:55] <_> You word in PM means little to nothing anymore
[09:55] <_> Since you have said so many things
[09:55] <_> and those people you talked with have talked with eachother too
[09:56] <Allanon> please don't think I was not considering just disbanding KT, _
[09:56] <Allanon> until a couple of hours ago, I was going to
[09:57] <Allanon> but I want to try and make it work again, and I was hoping you would understand
[09:57] <_> You almost make it sound that HaLL should feel sorry for your ----up?
[09:57] <_> I do not think you know how much you have pissed off people
[09:57] <Allanon> I don't expect HaLL to feel sorry. I was hoping they may feel compassion
[09:57] <_> Compassion for?
[09:58] <Allanon> compassion for someone who was misled, betrayed, and is now trying to make a fresh start
[09:58] <_> Compassion is a human emotion prompted by the pain of others
[09:59] <_> Do to others what you would have them do to you.
[09:59] <_> That is what defines compassion
[10:00] <_> I think you still work with Zauper
[10:00] <_> you have not proven me wrong
[10:00] <_> and do not want to prove it
[10:04] <Allanon> _, believe what you will. But if you give me a choice between publicly admitting I got played this badly, and disbanding the alliance, then I will disband it, for the sake of maybe being able to rebuild it one day. I followed what our code of ethics demanded of me as the alliance leader, and what my heart said was true based on what I was told by a friend
[10:05] <Allanon> But I will not sacrifice the future of my alliance just because you feel you cannot believe me when I say Zauper has left KT and betrayed me



Oh yes, see how evil HaLL made him do all these terrible things. Seriously. The best way you guys can spin this is "Allanon and zauper decided to scheme and lie to you"? What does that say about your earlier manipulations regarding the NAP between KT and HaLL that zauper broke with 20 minutes notice? And you guys wonder why we wanted Allanon to make his statement in an article? Him and zauper are simply not to be trusted by anyone. They've been trying to scheme us from the start.

[Asmodeus]

excuse me let me correct myself..
that 1 hit before deal was made was not random.. that was force getting ready to crush zauper's kd..
BEFORE we realized who they were..
and i will remind everyone that the only reason we approached them with a deal was because we realized that it was infact zauper's kd.. AND that zauper was in Allanon's group.

i knew that because Allanon invited me personally into that group before the age started.. but i declined because i was not going in solo .. obviously.

i realized that 15:14 was zauper's kd because of all the spam ingame messages from their killer who was hit..
his spam included ..

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
BLAH BLAH
I wanna have sex with your dog
blah blah
blah
blah
join #oddessy and talk to me there
blah blah
maybe i wanna have sex with your cat too.
blah blah blah

so i thought to myself...
oh .. #oddessy hmm.. investigate.. oh Zauper..
oh yea.. zauper is with Allanon.. well Allanon is a friend.. maybe we should NAP them.

[Sir Nasty]

so what the hell are you talking about HaLL being an alliance that acts like 1 big kingdom..

I said 'with or without' this conflict. Let me break that down for you in simpler terms.. it means you are doing this to other kingdoms in the game.
That is being.... aggressive.

Nasty, so you are saying that Allanon was lying to us all this time?

If you read what I said and that is what you got out of it then you are just about as dense as the other guy.


In fact neither of you really seem capable of understanding my one simple post.

Just remember this if nothing else.. 25 players, 1 kingdom, that is the game.
If you can't handle it without help then play another game.