How to deep chain ?

[Pestermenot]

No, the point of deep chaining stopped being about pk when they removed raze (the version destroying land). Now the point is to attempt to disable, and at least drop seriously out of range. It's all decided by the effort required to do it, because it's simply not worth spending too much resources on it when you could instead be bringing down bigger provs. If you can pk with a not unreasonable effort, that's great, but usually that isn't the case at all.

Now I accept that it's lost it's strength due to raze merely burning the land and not destroying it but it is still easy enough to pk a prov you want dead if you have a good team.

Back when I was playing seriously, I got pk'ed at least once every age. That was when we had the old raze attack, and at that point in time, hybrids and "battle groups" were pretty much crap that only the lower tier kd's loved. I've never been pk'ed since raze was removed, and I don't expect to ever be, since it's rather easy to avoid.

Battle groups were a REQUIREMENT in the top, how can you call them garbage...? The monarch had only to say, "These are your 3 targets today, go." and we depended on our monarch to decide who needed hit, then the monarch (as I type this I refrain from typing regent as that's another thing I'm still getting used to) watched us go to town. Back then, he was too busy staying alive to worry about joining a chain. Then came the banks and everything changed. Hybrids were crap in all but the most elite hands, noone knew how to successfully merge more than one role because the balance of the game made it EXTREMELY difficult (read "nearly impossible for many ages").


If I had a team of dedicated players who could follow chain orders and knew how to run a prov, I'd f'ing STOMP you...

[Luc]

Now I accept that it's lost it's strength due to raze merely burning the land and not destroying it but it is still easy enough to pk a prov you want dead if you have a good team.

Wrong. As long as I'm active, I can easily keep enough population to thwart you. If you're extremely dedicated, you can do it, but not without making an effort that'll lose you the war. If you think pk is "easy" it's because you've never tried it against a half decent opponent.

Battle groups were a REQUIREMENT in the top, how can you call them garbage...? The monarch had only to say, "These are your 3 targets today, go." and we depended on our monarch to decide who needed hit, then the monarch (as I type this I refrain from typing regent as that's another thing I'm still getting used to) watched us go to town. Back then, he was too busy staying alive to worry about joining a chain. Then came the banks and everything changed. Hybrids were crap in all but the most elite hands, noone knew how to successfully merge more than one role because the balance of the game made it EXTREMELY difficult (read "nearly impossible for many ages").

Requirement in the top? LOL. If you mean dividing out attackers on different targets and having them join a seperate IRC channel to coordinate themselves, then yes. I've got a feeling you mean the more or less static battle groups with x amount of mages, y amount of attackers etc. that only lesser kd's used though. In top kd's you can't sit and wait for a whole battle group to show up, you've got to be much faster and flexible than that. The groups are formed to hit a target, and then dissolved when it's done, to be replaced by another group of people next wave. If your armies are a bit spread out, you don't often use individual groups at all, because it's just not necessary.

As for hybrids, it's never been rocket science as you imply. They simply weren't good enough for many ages, easy as that. The top kd's have the best strategists in the game, and they almost always make much better decisions than the lesser kd's. The lesser kd's often end up thinking the only reason they're not in the top is because they're "not cheating", but that their strats are as good, and that they know how the top kd's do things. They're almost always wrong on all accounts.

What top kd's have you played in to get this "knowledge"? Because what you just described is how a non-top kd plays the game, with the monarch always getting chained, static target selection, static (?) battle groups and no bird's eye view at all. That's not how the best warring kd's did things back then, and it's not how they do things now either. If you think so, you're deluded and trusting second hand information too much.

If I had a team of dedicated players who could follow chain orders and knew how to run a prov, I'd f'ing STOMP you...

You really wouldn't even come close. There's lots of people in the game who would easily stomp all over you tho. You're clearly not good enough to ever lead a kd like that, so I'm not exactly worried.

[Pestermenot]

You know what, I'm done. This has become a flame war and neither of us will be able to resolve this.

[citadela01]

heh ... resolve ? There is nothing to resolve here ... your the only one not getting the picture.
Entertainment factor of this thread is rather high tho, so pls done stop ... keep educating us. I am still hoping you will top your statement how your mages finish off chain target with landlusting ... that was my personale favorite so far.

[Pestermenot]

Alright, since you asked nicely:

Land Lust: Captures between 1 acre and 1% of opponents land.

Apparently it's "way too difficult to raze them to death now" as I was apparently just informed this last hour, but I never planned for that or anything...

In a deep chain, you land 8-12 trads (minimum, for the size you mentioned) in one tick, next tick, they are overpopped and rioting.

Give them a few hours (4-8) to try and stabilize then start in with the FBs, Chastity, MS, NM, AW, NS. Do all these things within one tick as well.

Start the attack again with your smaller provs, get in as many hits as possible until you start getting 10-20 acres per hit, then switch to massacres and propaganda and AW again, then let the mages LL them to oblivion.

This only takes 6-8 provs working together, depending on race/pers and how well they run their strat (more never hurts).

Let me add one more thing, since it's so gosh darn funny to so many. :)

I moronically assumed that your attackers would continue throwing 1 gen and spare army at said prov until gains became zero. I know I should have stated that and feel stupid.

[titanwraith]

Haha funny thread, poor nubs who tries to learn stuff by reading this thread and understanding how to deepchain. As a generic advice; regard all Pester's prov as a regular Q&A - our most silly questions answered to provide the reader with better understanding and you will come out with an ok picture of what to accomplish with a deepchain.

sillurin! don't give the fool's post any status

Knowing when to use the strat is more important than how to use it.

For people reading this thread, never.

The point of a deep chain is it never stops until you are dead, otherwise it's just a really bad chain that you can recover from.

gtfo. It is sufficient when they can no longer attack (e.g. offense all released/deserted, ridiculous out of nw range)

Battle groups were a REQUIREMENT in the top, how can you call them garbage...

what.

Also you clearly have no idea how to chain. Hit 10 times, then let them stabilize then start doing wpa ops? the ****?

[Palem]

I was pretty close to just closing this thread immediately because the amount of flaming here is totally unacceptable, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Play nice.
Discuss, don't flame.

If someone's wrong, they're wrong. Educate, don't humiliate =\

[Pestermenot]

Y'know, I went on a chained target search (low acres, NW fairly high) and found a half-hearted chain that accomplished ALL of the goals you spoke of...

Funny, it lasted for 2 days...

-1,288 acres: Easternisdominating - 10 or 14 hits received there. But I'm just an idiotic noob who can't read a snatched newspaper properly... I'm sure I missed something there.

EDIT:
Maybe it's just me being a noob, but seems to me that is an AWFULLY long time for a deep chain.

Found another one, another day long chain with hits spread every hour or two, which I would for sure say does NOT classify as a properly run deep chain:
-3,632 acres: Because I am loyal - 45 hits in, 12 hits out - And not broken by a long shot.

[titanwraith]

Y'know, I went on a chained target search (low acres, NW fairly high) and found a half-hearted chain that accomplished ALL of the goals you spoke of...

Funny, it lasted for 2 days...

-1,288 acres: Easternisdominating - 10 or 14 hits received there. But I'm just an idiotic noob who can't read a snatched newspaper properly... I'm sure I missed something there.

EDIT:
Maybe it's just me being a noob, but seems to me that is an AWFULLY long time for a deep chain.

Found another one, another day long chain with hits spread every hour or two, which I would for sure say does NOT classify as a properly run deep chain:
-3,632 acres: Because I am loyal - 45 hits in, 12 hits out - And not broken by a long shot.

the first example is some low-level ghetto that is not applicable at all

the second example the string of hits is clearly not supposed to be a chain

[citadela01]

you just dont get it ...

its not just the fact your proposed strategies are innefective that ticks people off. Its that they are impossible ... literally impossible to pull off. This is not clash of concept A vs concept B and arguing which is more effective, it is impossible vs tested out and widely accepted.

Yet you present them as tested out and viable ... you insist in claiming that you have actually done it and it works which represents an insult to every competent player who actually knows how to play this game.
You are clueless ... you have no grasp of ie dificulty of landlusting a province runing 20+wpa at 1/4 your nw which is one of the things you propose ... IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO. IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!

Your posts reek with impossibilities, lies and moronic ideas you are doing your best to defend ... but its like trying to prove to us that you can suvive on the surface of the sun. We KNOW you cant, and no matter how much you lie and bulls**t about it there is nothing you can do that will prove your case.

You are cluless. Its very important you realize this. You have no idea how to play this game ... no idea whatsoever. Your strategies are nothing but makebelief and wishfull thinking you would like to try but never had a chance to test it out. You have never deep chained any1 and most likely never will unless if by some odd chance you land in a decent kd. Even than chances are you will be kicked out very soon unless you stop pretending and learn to stfu and listen to more experienced players.

Most important thing you need to do if you ever want to stop beein cluless noob who ticks people off is to stop lying. You have never played in deacent kingdom, let alone in top one. You are randomly throwing ideas and theories which you heared from second hand sources and trying to put them together in your mind in a way that (you hope) top kingdoms use them.

Its not unheared off ... many people do it, some succesfully. Unfortunatelly you lack the basic understanding of the game to make such attemps feasible.

Let me give you an example of this ... you wrap your mind arround chaining/pk'ing one province and lack even the basic insight in greater picture that is war effort, you dont understand that ie aw'ing one chained province to a point ll'ing is possible would take a days of work from 10 rogues and once you get there its STILL useless. Because 5 mages spamin ll's would do lees damage than few attackers using spare armies. In this example you have dedicated your kd's complete thievery strength to harrasing peovince that is allready been rendered useless and than you followed that brilliant tactical move by doing the same with magic aspect of your kingdom.

This is just tip of the iceberg there ... there are ton of other examples I can point out in your posts. Chasity ? Seriously ... CHASTITY !!! Man ... chained province doesnt have a friggin birth rate ... if you have ever been there you'd know this. It goes from 115% total pop at time its making its attacks to god knows how much while troops are away.

To summarize.
You are cluless. Your ideas are stupid. Your ideas are often impossible. You need to stop laying and learn to stfu and maybe learn something.

[kbone]

geeez, take it easy on the guy

I think its pretty easy to see what makes sense in here and what doesnt, you dont have to ridicule or embarrass someone

[citadela01]

Easy has been tried and breaks on denial. If I can can make him understands at cost of beein an a**hole about it its worth it and I did him a favor.

[Pestermenot]

@citadela01
You don't get it... WHY would you leave them with wizards. That's the part you missed. You sir, have earned the fail award for ignoring that one point. Massacre has a minimum cap, it does... honest.

EDIT:
As far as good for the kd, I admitted from the BEGINNING this was not about "winning the war" and for the "good of the kingdom" It's about commitment to a pk.
Jeebus...

If you want to win the war, you need to decide who to disable and move on, perhaps our argument is the terminology and I can just admit that it doesn't mean what it used to since noone really pk's any more. Fine, I will admit that and move on, happy now?

[Steel]

I love how the guy who doesn't know how to chain is telling everyone else what the point of chaining really is.

Keep it up!
Maybe one day you'll get chained and understand its purpose, but I don't think kingdoms under 3mil nw have ever even heard of chaining, so probably not.

[Pestermenot]

Y'know, I had 4 successful chains this age, two were from ~2k to ~300 acres. We stopped the chain because it was a waste of effort. It's okay, I don't know how.