You're all entitled to your opinions, but it would be nice if that which is against the norm is not dismissed as plain stupidity most of the time.
You're all entitled to your opinions, but it would be nice if that which is against the norm is not dismissed as plain stupidity most of the time.
sry if i came across as dismissing what u said as stupid, my point is that in general given a a few prov running hybrid in a war chances are they will be chained hard and be worse off then a similar attacker. So unless u can figure out a way to hide your hybrid or you use them as bate they will usually loose out to an attacker.Originally Posted by BlazingChicken
Nah, I wasn't referring to you when I said that, that comment was aimed at certain other people on the forum. As for being chained hard, I suppose a hybrid could use himself as bate. In that case the hybrid could run a build of say:
3% farms
25% TGs
10% barracks
30% GS
15% Guilds
3% Towers
14% TD
Btw this is assuming the avian is a cleric. Otherwise 20% GS and 10% hospitals.
Last edited by BlazingChicken; 06-03-2012 at 05:58.
Avian with 3% farms and towers? Are you a 2k BPA Sage, or Shepherd? Strange pers picks for a hybrid...
Nexus - Depravity - Evil Dragons - Pantheon - Elvut - Mercy of Absalom - Pulse - Insolence - Giraffes - L E G A C Y
Food and runes can be stolen easily. It's not really so strange for a hybrid to be cleric, as you can run more GS (hence justifying the -50% losses) than a heavy attacker who runs banks and WT. The extra general is always useful for helping your heavy attackers in deep chaining anyway, if you find yourself unable to double tap someone around your size.
Anyhow I'm talking about a hybrid that enters war with at the very least 100 OPA, late age with just enough thieves to rob.
Last edited by BlazingChicken; 06-03-2012 at 13:55.
food is easily stolen without being a hybrid and 3% farms is probably a bit low for any non-undead. With that said if you are an A/T hybrid and you main use of your thieves is stealing food, runes and gold your missing the point of hybrids, typicaly their goal is damage to the growing attackers via ns/peasants. If you are stealing gold/food/runes to run your OWN prov you aren't helping the kd and it would be far better if you simply had the extra offence."stealing" via runes/food/gold should be done by the attackers in you kd that are getting the worst land gains. Your attackers steal from the people u let grow(low tpa), while hybrids control growth and while pure t/m shell out the attackers. If you are running 6-7 mod tpa to steal 30k gc/5-6k runes every 12 hours you are hurting your own kd more than you are hurting theirs. There's just no point in stealing from the mid teir attackers as they just wont have enough to make your gained resources worth more than the damage a ns could be doing.
In every prov i've ever run a heavy attacker has had better science than a hybrid simply because more offense=more learns mid/late age. with that said even if the two prove have ~equal science since more t/m science=less pop/be/income science the attacker/hybrid are simplistically at a wash when it comes to science.
Unless u are a halfer thieves cost more than dspecs and when being chained your going to loose most of your thieves/dspecs. sure thieves dont require income, but the net damage done/recover time to your prov is more when u loose thieves. And if you were stupid enough to run a higher draft rate becasue your thieves dont cost wages then your going to be even more screwed as you overpop faster. go ahead and run 80% draft rate becasue u can pay your army, all that means is you are going to cry when chained.
in a proper "deep chain" your going to go be hit down such that you dont have space for your peasants/wizards/thieves until your army gets in with the new land. As your dspecs and thieves desert but your wizards dont your going to loose the majority of your dspecs/thieves. In fact since your army deserts by 10% of the population you are over 115% pop the more army you have in theives (becasue u ran that higher draft rate) the FASTER your army will desert. The only part of your army that u can be sure wont desert when overpopulated are your leets/offence since they cant desert while the army is out. Then u have a choice while your army is out you can keep either your theives/dspecs. if you keep those theives your going to be at zero def and people are going to throw all spare offence at you and your gone. If you keep some def (as much as u can) than the extra offense u have (as a strait attacker since your not over poped when your offence gets in) is a major asset because u can quad tap with that offence a LOT longer than a hybrid who started with 30-40 less opa.
thieves cost more than dspecs, fortified doesn't lower the cost to train thieves but it does your military. A well organized kd spams aid in the forms of runes/food to decay while not in war to even out tb (every freaking plunder last age i'd sent a few 100k of runes/food to our hybrids). And all of that doesnt matter when at war becasue the only aid u need is gold/food. Even if you are being taxed at the max of 15% its not alot of wasted gold/food. (and i personally run 50% wages when chained because the increase in ME due to the constant hits tend to negate the need to pay 200% wages making your 15% tax on gc aid requirements basically a non-factor)
true, what u describe is the role of a hybrid, the problem is that if you have any amount of hybrids in the kd that CAN be chained by people becasue they aren't unbreakable/ to small to matter they should be chained FIRST as they are LEAST able to fight a quad tap V 5 tap war at 400 acres against a chained pure attacker.
The only way to run hybrids are to keep them protected or to specifically ask for them to be chained (via planed bate however both of these can lead to problems). Keeping them protected is hard, and why most waring kd have at most 3 total hybrids knowing that these prov are going to need to be CARRIED early but are great stores of honor.
Last edited by Persain; 06-03-2012 at 18:15. Reason: spelling
Then perhaps I could run slightly more farms and towers. As for not helping the kingdom, the extra leftover resources gained from stealing can be aided out to the rest of the kingdom, hence why stealing is both damaging the enemy kingdom and helping ones own side.food is easily stolen without being a hybrid and 3% farms is probably a bit low for any non-undead. With that said if you are an A/T hybrid and you main use of your thieves is stealing food, runes and gold your missing the point of hybrids, typical their goal is damage to the growing attackers via ns/peasants. If you are stealing gold/food/runes to run your OWN prov you aren't helping the kd and it would be far better if you simply had the extra offence.
It would be far more than 30k gc/5-6k runes every 12 hours considering the increased effectiveness of robbing during war. As for hurting the kingdom, that is why I suggested 3 hybrids max, so they wouldn't completely deplete all the targets for stealing."stealing" via runes/food/gold should be done by the attackers in you kd that are getting the worst land gains. Your attackers steal from the people u let grow(low tpa), while hybrids control growth and while pure t/m shell out the attackers. If you are running 6-7 mod tpa to steal 30k gc/5-6k runes every 12 hours you are hurting your own kd more than you are hurting theirs. There's just no point in stealing from the mid teir attackers as they just wont have enough to make your gained resources worth more than the damage a ns could be doing.
That is true, and I agree.In every prov i've ever run a heavy attacker has had better science than a hybrid simply because more offense=more learns mid/late age. with that said even if the two prove have ~equal science since more t/m science=less pop/be/income science the attacker/hybrid are simplistically at a wash when it comes to science.
But a hybrid can pull off 100 OPA with 70%-75% draft.Unless u are a halfer thieves cost more than dspecs and when being chained your going to loose most of your thieves/dspecs. sure thieves dont require income, but the net damage done/recover time to your prov is more when u loose thieves. And if you were stupid enough to run a higher draft rate becasue your thieves dont cost wages then your going to be even more screwed as you overpop faster. go ahead and run 80% draft rate becasue u can pay your army, all that means is you are going to cry when chained.
The hybrid runs more GS and thus less overpop than a heavy attacker in the same position. The hybrid could easily release most of his thieves and spend the rest of the war as a heavy attacker.in a proper "deep chain" your going to go be hit down such that you dont have space for your peasants/wizards/thieves until your army gets in with the new land. As your dspecs and thieves desert but your wizards dont your going to loose the majority of your dspecs/thieves. In fact since your army deserts by 10% of the population you are over 115% pop the more army you have in theives (becasue u ran that higher draft rate) the FASTER your army will desert. The only part of your army that u can be sure wont desert when overpopulated are your leets/offence since they cant desert while the army is out. Then u have a choice while your army is out you can keep either your theives/dspecs. if you keep those theives your going to be at zero def and people are going to throw all spare offence at you and your gone. If you keep some def (as much as u can) than the extra offense u have (as a strait attacker since your not over poped when your offence gets in) is a major asset because u can quad tap with that offence a LOT longer than a hybrid who started with 30-40 less opa.
That is true, but what if the hybrid had some gold stashed away to maintain constant 200%? It would allow the hybrid to hit his way back up faster.thieves cost more than dspecs, fortified doesn't lower the cost to train thieves but it does your military. A well organized kd spams aid in the forms of runes/food to decay while not in war to even out tb. And all of that doesnt matter when at war becasue the only aid u need is gold/food. Even if you are being taxed at the max of 15% its not alot of wasted gold/food. (and i personally run 50% wages when chained because the increase in ME due to the constant hits tend to negate the need to pay 200% wages making your 15% tax on gc aid requirements basically a non-factor)
Oh my god... people read this thread and don't listen. RAR MY 3TPA AND CRIME SCIENCE IS GOING TO OWN... as if heavies always run 1 tpa and minimal crime, especially late age.
75% DR numbers don't count. They are not stable as soon as you gain or lose land, and it's a pain to get up to 70% DR let alone 75% without being hit. Besides, whatever DR you run, you can assume heavies can and will run the same, all else being equal. It doesn't matter if that DR is 60% or 80%.
The higher the TPA the heavies are running, the less of a militaristic advantage they have over the hybrid. It's not like a hybrid can't adjust based on how much TPA the enemy heavies have. Say they have 1 RAW TPA, the Hybrid would run 2.5-3 Raw TPA. If the heavies have 2 RAW TPA, the Hybrid would be fine running 4 Raw TPA. Although if the heavies were running 3 RAW TPA, the hybrid would be better off just converting to a heavy as hell.
As for gaining land, if they actually let you gain that much land, then you could give yourself a pat in the back and spend the rest of the war as a heavy.
Really though, why all the hate for hybrids? A game isn't much fun without variety.
Last edited by BlazingChicken; 06-03-2012 at 19:59.
from an ATTACKERS perspective farms are more important than towers, if we see you have 3% farms, we'll wait for u to attack then drought u and have a t/m (if high tpa) steal all your food. Towers meh, if your tpa is good u can steal enough for self spells. However yes your not helping your kd with aiding out what u send usually, pre war stealing gold is good to fund your dragon/makes theirs harder to fund. However during war no prov should have a high enough stash of gold with a low tpa to make your thieving more damaging than if u simply ran NS. (with undeads as a clear exception due to no ns ability)
unless your tpa is 10+ mod and u go after the t/m or other hybrids no ATTACKING prov should have enough gold that your geting more than 30k gc and 5-6k runes in the 1k acres size range (due to WT and low on-hand gc/runes).
First i would argue 75% draft is probably a bit high on a hybrid. I personally use ~70% as my draft even late age. And while late-mid age that opa is pull off able but a comparable attacker say orc/undead this age should be at 130-150 opa. For example last age my kd via shrimp Orc, Clearic, Lord, 1k science/acre 73% draft
# Practical Offense (100% elites): 315,011 (120 per acre)
# Practical Defense (0% elites): 102,476 (39 per acre)
# Thieves: 5,557 (2.12 per Acre) (from CB)
# Wizards: 3,838 (1.47 per Acre) (from CB)
Turning that into a max mod opa of hittable offense is 120*1.05^5=153 mod opa. Second i would say its more than likely as a hybrid you will have LESS land available to you. You need all the SAME buildings a normal attacker would but as a mage u need towers, and as a thief 15% TD instead of WT isnt really enough.
Taking a look at that same guy from above he ran about 15-20% WT with (36,690gc daily income). I'd say your benefit to your kd stealing gold and runes is worthless. Say u steal gc from him since hes a typical attacker in the kd if your lucky and u catch him just before he logs in to attack he'll have what 300k gc. you'll get what 150k with half your stealth? when hes 2600 acres thats not alot of gold when the t/m of the kds have 3 times that income(93,683gc daily income). You would be far better off trying to use your stealth to find someone without 15% WT to ns and shell as you only need to kill 2*150,000/350=857 troops to have the same benefit to your kd (ie double damage instead of damage+benefit).
like i said wages in aid isnt really a problem for an attacker as it is nor is having enough gold for 4-5 ticks at 200% pay and geting aided the rest. And its not a burdon on the kd to get wages in aid if your chained.. i personally drop to 50% as an attacker becasue its bothersome to ask for aid, and i dont have to watch my prov as much. "Hitting back up" (ie growing after u were chained during war) shouldn't occur in most wars. What your goal is once chained is survive (and sustian yourself in case the war goes 3+ days) AND finish off chains. If the other kd is letting you grow and train such that that 200% wages on the 200-400 chain is important u already won the war.
Look at it this way assume a ~3 day war and your hybrid A/T 100 opa vrs a 150 opa attacker gets first "chained" while their first hit is out. Now pre-chain hybrid attacks<attacker attacks, so the attacker required MORE hits into them to be chained. Then lets say there is 60 hours of war left and while both people loose a substantial amount of their thieves/def the hybrid sees his 100 opa=>65 opa in 6 offensive hits while the attacker sees 150 opa=>97 opa...(0.93^6). That means at ~72 hours when the kds need to decide who has the advantage the attacker is still hitting twice to finish of chains and then 2-3 times into other chained people, while the hybrid lost all his tpa and now at best is hitting once to finish of chains.
As i said previously the hybrid looses in almost every way to the strait attacker, the "advantage" is running a not as damaging prov in hopes of being ignored and honor whoring or using them for specfic purposes such at targets/unbreakables (if u know how to run that)
We were talking about avians though, obviously an orc/undead would have way higher OPA. :/
The reason I go hybrid as an avian is because clear sight doesn't stack well with WT, since they're multiplicative.
It would be more reasonable to compare a hybrid avian with 100 OPA to a heavy avian with 115-120 OPA.
No hate, im running one in my kd right now. :P Its just that they are typically much LESS useful than going strait attacker or T/M now that the only race w/+modifiers is feary.
remember original post was
"I've heard people say hybrid attackers are no good now..?"
and the answer is yes they are not as good as either a t/m or a strait attacker. That doesn't mean they are useless just not as good as other options.
Pure attacker avian should still be able to hit ~130 and i only used orc since my kd had no avain last age. the concept is the same for 2 avains, hybrid v attacker just to a slightly smaller extent. In the grand scheme of things its a hybrid V attacker thread and using orc attacker V elf/avain hybrid just highlights how big the difference really is.
Last edited by Persain; 06-03-2012 at 20:19. Reason: edit
Still....the difference in OPA between an avian hybrid and heavy is far different from the difference between an orc hybrid and an orc heavy.
For an avian just being able to double tap is enough since you will get 8 hour attack times, and just worry about not being triple tapped by the avian heavy.
But, for an orc/undead it is a world of difference of being able to double tap/triple tap/or quad tap.
At best an orc hybrid 'might' be able to triple tap, but probably not, while the orc heavy would be able to quad tap.
Bottom line is, playing a/t is a calculated risk. You can't make a hybrid that's going to be awesome in all situations, but you can adapt to add thievery to a good attacking province for certain situations. Any thief role carries risk of fails, while attacking is consistent in effect, and no race has enough of an edge in thief effectiveness to overcome that absolutely except the Fae.
BTW, WT and CS are awesome together. Seeing a pure t/m bounce 50% of their ops is a very good thing.
its setups like this that give hybrid a bad name ...
3 raw tpa w/o rogue personality is good for nothing. Its not even hybrid ... its just atacker with decent thievery def that wasted land on dens. Any science you can get heavy hitter can get more, only mods you have over him are dens ... thats all. and 3+dens vs 2 is just lol rly. You are few failed ops and one hit away from beeing useless. Stealing is useless since only stashes worth stealing are runes and you cant touch those with your tpa. If you arent consistently ns'ing with your a/t you are failing at it.
Now ofc you can argument your setup saying theres allways some1 to op with no cs/wt's and 1 raw tpa ... but lets be honest here ... strat that requires oponent to be an idiot to be succesfull isnt much of a strat.
Hybrids are gimped by nature ... no way arround it. It gets down to can you justify the tradeoff you make in offense with the ops you can pull off. If you are doing an odd rob xxx op than its a bad tradeoff. In your case I would just raze dens for something more usefull and let thieves fade out to standard 2 tpa or even keep it ... but I'd definitelly stop wasting land on dens.
I still belive hybrids can be very usefull in certain scenarios/setups if played right, I just dont think thats the right way to play one.
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