Age 54 Potential Changes Rev II

[crease]

Please oh wise Bishop, explain how you can knock about a faery in hostile next age, you now only get 2 masses without them casting ms all over ur kd, and 7 before they declare on you. That means you can kill off 1 faery or 1 elf and do a little to another. (maybe) Not even worth it.

[UtopiaKarateKid]

Darksel has done a very good job in pointing out the credits issue at the end of war. I believe this is something we have missed out horribly as well.

Indeed a few thousands of credits been given to Orc is an issue that should be taken notice on, as Orc credits means for elites but not for spec. A few fake wars could have pumped up the Orc's elites faster than it can be imagined, which even Merchant would not be able to train up such large amount of elites themselves.

[Wiply]

So I suggest:

Orc gets 1/3 of the credits in war endings

Gotta agree with this, 3000 credits for an orc in a kingdom with median 1000 acres is pretty insane. Give orc

- Only gains x% of war win credit bonus

With x ranging from 50-66%

[Bishop]

A few fake wars could have pumped up the Orc's elites faster than it can be imagined

DEAD provs have 0 elites.

Gotta agree with this, 3000 credits for an orc in a kingdom with median 1000 acres is pretty insane. Give orc

- Only gains x% of war win credit bonus

With x ranging from 50-66%

No, this won't happen. Adding in special cases like this gets messy (look at undead convert) - it either applies to everyone or no-one.

[mjonte]

So Faery should get -50% honour bonuses and loose another nerf?

Seems like that idea would solve alot of problems that have been brought up in the last few pages.

[Pillz]

Why are you all so intent on crying about Faery?
Since I started playing almost 10 years ago Faery has consistently been (while it was in use) very similar to what it is now. It has probably undergone the fewest changes of any race - It is always a T/M, it always turtles, and it always has the most honor.
It is not overly difficult to cut down a Faery or two. If you are unable to cut down 6 of them, don't engage a kingdom with 6 of them. It is really that simple. It makes no sense to give Faeries an honor penalty because they are good at gaining and retaining honor.

[jenna06]

Disclaimer:

I've played Human/Sage for since... well I can't even remember how long ago.

Human has been nerfed hard offensively, I've read many posts in this thread describing why so I don't need to go into detail.

Sage has also been killed.
No lower book cost?
Very small increase in science effectiveness?
No free books?

Sage has never been a glamorous persona. It is a waiting game, and takes a bit to get established. You may as well remove extreme sci, because how in the heck is anyone supposed to sustain that? Especially in a warring KD? Who cares about plague immunity? NB takes care of that. Give us the free books back, and the decrease in science cost. This was never an OP personality, but now it is mostly junk. What boost does a sage get to science production? None! That is what the sage personality has always been about.

People advocating removing science protection for sage just want nice learn targets for their orcs.

[Bukharistan]

Agree with Pillz, if you think Faery is so good, go faery yourself. Every kingdom has 2-3 of them, so every kingdom has the same advantages/disadvantages. I do have to admit that faeries can be quite deadly dragon killers because of their high elite value. Right now I'm at 2200 acres, running 16K elites and 11K def specs(also running 5.5 raw wpa, 6 raw tpa). So in war I can kill off 55K points of a dragon instantly (Dragons for our KD size is about 110K points). Get 2-3 faeries with that set-up, and you have a real dragon killing machine. It does open you up for attacks though. So either you have useless turtle faeries with 130 dpa that cannot kill dragons and can only cast spells, or you have faeries that take a risk but aid the team along the way. The second choice works better if your KD wants to win wars, the first is for individuals. Just means that faeries can be taken down.

In fact, during war you can always start with 2-3 conquests, opening up and then TMing a faery down.

[Bishop]

Disclaimer:
Sage has also been killed.
No lower book cost?
Very small increase in science effectiveness?
No free books?

Sage was boosted in the only area thats important - effectiveness. The free books and cheaper books are total worth losing for another bit of effectiveness.

[Pillz]

So Bishop, since this thread is getting sort of long with discussion, can we have any news on updates? Its becoming rather circular.

[Bishop]

We've got them nailed down now, you can expect them pretty soon

[Ethan]

Minimalist race balance comments (no style comments):
Avian - slightly weak. Either 6 point def spec, *or* improved elite (7/3 and 6 NW, 8/2 at 6.75-7 NW), *or* improved spell list. (RM from orc?)
Dwarf - solid. No more than +5% BE more (to 15%).
Elves - weak, bad elite. Elite to 5 NW, increase gc cost 100-200 gc.
Faery - balanced/benchmark. No change.
Halflings - balanced. Lower military, solid hybrid. No change.
Humans - probably weak, bad elite. Elite to 6/5 @ 5.25-5.5 NW. Alternately, elite to 5/4 @ 3.75-4 NW. I still don't understand this race, but any of these changes put it at about 93% orc, on par with halfer/buffed elf for military.
Orcs - balance/benchmark. No change.
UD - balanced/benchmark. No change.


Avian "wild" idea - change "-10% attack gains" to "-10% land attack gains and losses". Replaces elite/dspec buff from above. Maybe keep -10% learn/plunder gains still too. Especially fun if intentionally implemented "wrong", such that ambush takes 40% land instead of 45% (or 50%) - if this is done, state so explicitly! Optionally go to -20% gains/losses, which gets really wild.


Edit: seeing above comment from Bishop - please suggest to them that, if something is totally underpowered (or overpowered), they should still consider a small NW tweak or the like to get it better in line. But obviously it must be a fairly major glitch to warrant a change to the "final", so hopefully it never happens. (And if done, do it *fast*, under 24 hours.)

[lmtdconv92]

I think War hero is too weak and no one will pick it.

The War Hero
+50% more bonuses from honor
-50% draft cost
-50% train time

to make them more balanced, maybe add them some of warriors old bonus, or give limited Ambush protection, or both.

-25% Land Losses when Ambushed, maybe -50%
+15% Enemy Casualties (on attack or defense)
-15% Your Military Casualties (on attack or defense)

Can help them a lot because as they currently stand, noone will pick them.

[Sheister]

Sage was boosted in the only area thats important - effectiveness. The free books and cheaper books are total worth losing for another bit of effectiveness.

Actually, I regard the learn protections as pretty criticle.

[Landro]

Actually, I regard the learn protections as pretty criticle.

Last age it was 50%, this age 75% and next age 66%. That's still better than last age