A number of mechanics suggestions

[TheRock]

The suggestion I made in my thread was to make it much easier to war people in range but very hard to get the button on smaller kingdoms. Aggressor kingdoms shouldn't be getting the protection, if they feel they can fight someone bigger then the game doesn't need an arbitrary rule to protect them.

Just as a reminder, the last time top kingdoms stayed in range of most other kingdoms all age was the age dicing took acres from the pool (Age 43). Nobody was happy that age, because the top kingdoms whacked everyone around the entire time. That was the power move, so they made it. If things continue as they have this age, it's pretty clear top kingdoms will have to turn into kingdoms that bottomfeed and raze away threats to ensure their safety, which doesn't really seem fun for anyone.

[Sheister]

People keep saying that they want range to be able to compete. All I am hearing here is "protect the integrity of the race for the top." Who the hell is part of that integrity? Why on earth should waves from smaller KD's be regarded as disruptive to that integrity.

You did a cost benefit analysis. Should I leave my regular production strategy in order to deal with this mite, or should I give up some acres because I am better int he long run. Cost-benefit analysis is part of everything. You want to shift that so that it is equally profitable for you to do all things. Well, thats silly.

therock, you may not be an asshole, I don't know. I am glad that you assert that is so. Yes, ABS plays to win and everything you do is for #1. So this is an argument to protect your structure that you all feel secure in to pursue #1. Since you all want to dice, lets just set up a dice server and the 10 KDs that just want to dice can go there and do that. We can call it the grand-champion-of-super-elite-best-players-ever server so you all feel better. I am sorry, but sometimes, under any rules scenario, there are going to be less optimal phases of the game. Dealing with the quickly is part of what earns a KD the #1 spot. You all clearly have been playing in the top for longer than I can think of this stuff. I am astonished that I have to tell you that.

It does work for the other 350+ kds on the server.

Sanc threw some hits into snakes and snakes does a wave in return. So snakes is the aggressor..............no. sanc hit snakes because snakes had hit into some other kd's so snakes is the aggressor...... no. This is all more alliance rhetoric BS. Sanc had no reason to try to justify its hits into Sanc on the basis that snakes hit someone else. What is revealed is, not only did Sanc hit into snakes but it did so as part of a coordinated response, far from the 1 v 1 approach to the game that has been outlined as the goal by so many in the top for so long.

For another version of that: http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...1#post15166325

Further facts, snakes has mansoor and jonnyesen who make it a point, every age, to pick a fight with an abs KD because that is what they want to do. They do not care if they win or lose and will often pick suicidal fights because thats all they want to do. Well, I am sorry but for some reason, back in age god knows when you made enemies of people who will pursue you with single-minded interest. It may even go with the territory. So, we have snakes who is a "problem" but will always be a "problem" because of the ego's involved. They are now enough of a problem that you want a rules change to put that to bed that alters protections for the rest of the server that have worked well for some time.

No, I don't think that is a good idea. Figure out another way to deal with jonnyesen.

[TheRock]

People keep saying that they want range to be able to compete. All I am hearing here is "protect the integrity of the race for the top." Who the hell is part of that integrity? Why on earth should waves from smaller KD's be regarded as disruptive to that integrity.

You did a cost benefit analysis. Should I leave my regular production strategy in order to deal with this mite, or should I give up some acres because I am better int he long run. Cost-benefit analysis is part of everything. You want to shift that so that it is equally profitable for you to do all things. Well, thats silly.

therock, you may not be an asshole, I don't know. I am glad that you assert that is so. Yes, ABS plays to win and everything you do is for #1. So this is an argument to protect your structure that you all feel secure in to pursue #1. Since you all want to dice, lets just set up a dice server and the 10 KDs that just want to dice can go there and do that. We can call it the grand-champion-of-super-elite-best-players-ever server so you all feel better. I am sorry, but sometimes, under any rules scenario, there are going to be less optimal phases of the game. Dealing with the quickly is part of what earns a KD the #1 spot. You all clearly have been playing in the top for longer than I can think of this stuff. I am astonished that I have to tell you that.

It does work for the other 350+ kds on the server.

Sanc threw some hits into snakes and snakes does a wave in return. So snakes is the aggressor..............no. sanc hit snakes because snakes had hit into some other kd's so snakes is the aggressor...... no. This is all more alliance rhetoric BS. Sanc had no reason to try to justify its hits into Sanc on the basis that snakes hit someone else. What is revealed is, not only did Sanc hit into snakes but it did so as part of a coordinated response, far from the 1 v 1 approach to the game that has been outlined as the goal by so many in the top for so long.

For another version of that: http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...1#post15166325

Further facts, snakes has mansoor and jonnyesen who make it a point, every age, to pick a fight with an abs KD because that is what they want to do. They do not care if they win or lose and will often pick suicidal fights because thats all they want to do. Well, I am sorry but for some reason, back in age god knows when you made enemies of people who will pursue you with single-minded interest. It may even go with the territory. So, we have snakes who is a "problem" but will always be a "problem" because of the ego's involved. They are now enough of a problem that you want a rules change to put that to bed that alters protections for the rest of the server that have worked well for some time.

No, I don't think that is a good idea. Figure out another way to deal with jonnyesen.

I can't keep refuting the same points since you refuse to read or acknowledge what's written. Unfortunately, it's just not worth my time to keep disproving your points.

As proof you do not read...

So this is an argument to protect your structure that you all feel secure in to pursue #1. Since you all want to dice, lets just set up a dice server and the 10 KDs that just want to dice can go there and do that. We can call it the grand-champion-of-super-elite-best-players-ever server so you all feel better. I am sorry, but sometimes, under any rules scenario, there are going to be less optimal phases of the game. Dealing with the quickly is part of what earns a KD the #1 spot. You all clearly have been playing in the top for longer than I can think of this stuff. I am astonished that I have to tell you that.

Everyone, on all sides of the competition for the top, has come in this thread and said THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you wrote here. NOBODY WANTS TO DICE. The mechanics of the game set it up that way. Go back and read the posts by Mal, jdorje, flogger and anyone else of note in this thread - they all say, "we don't like dicing, we do it because we have to if we want to compete".

We all know how to deal with changes, since, as I previously said, we do it every age. Saying a change sucks doesn't mean we don't know how to handle it.

I have no idea why you're bringing up Jonnyesen and Mansoor, since, following the conclusion of your post...they were dealt with. What you wrote is not based in reality.

Accordingly, I'm sorry but I can't spend more time reading mountains of text to refute what you've written. I've already written my responses - you either ignore them or make points that just don't make sense. Have a nice day.

[Sheister]

But that is the point here to theRock. You are CHOOSING to dice to compete. Guess what? If you decided not to, then this whole problem goes away. This is a problem you created for yourselves. That's the point.

Just because you don't understand my points does not mean I don't make sense. You have not refuted my points. Everything you say, upon inspection, further demonstrates that your problem does not exist. But thats OK. It is enough that the dev's now know that there are those who oppose what you all are proposing.

[Mal]

But that is the point here to theRock. You are CHOOSING to dice to compete. Guess what? If you decided not to, then this whole problem goes away. This is a problem you created for yourselves. That's the point.

Just because you don't understand my points does not mean I don't make sense. You have not refuted my points. Everything you say, upon inspection, further demonstrates that your problem does not exist. But thats OK. It is enough that the dev's now know that there are those who oppose what you all are proposing.

I'm confused are you telling us to quit utopia? Or quit trying to win?

[Sheister]

Neither. I am saying the pressure to dice is all self created because you feel a need to drive to the top (even though most of the affected KDs have not crowned in a long time). If you did not dice and make large banks and other things that caused disparate NW (which you take advantage of to protect your selves on the one had and curse on the other when it works against you) you would not have this problem. Also if ABS stopped doing it (and lets be real, it would have to be Abs to choose to not bother dicing) then sooner or later the other KDs would stop doing it too because its BORING. problem solved.

No KD of mine has ever chosen to sit around dicing to get to #1. We easily could. Some of our members have in the past. We choose not to waste our days doing that. You can choose that too. But we pay a price for staying smaller. We constantly have to deal with randoms from idiots in top 10 kds right before we are about to declare that often cause delays in our war plans. hmmm this sounds kind of familiar, I have to deal with delays in my goals..... and its annoying...... you have to deal with delays in your goal of getting land.... and its annoying.....

I GUESS ITS JUST THE GAME!

the other thing was, if you don't like the non-dicing KDs interfering, then maybe a new server for all the acre racing dice KDs to go play on is the thing to do. just go over there. You don't need armies. just buildings, peasants and wizards
and you just dice all day.

/me shrugs.

[Mal]

Neither. I am saying the pressure to dice is all self created because you feel a need to drive to the top (even though most of the affected KDs have not crowned in a long time). If you did not dice and make large banks and other things that caused disparate NW (which you take advantage of to protect your selves on the one had and curse on the other when it works against you) you would not have this problem. Also if ABS stopped doing it (and lets be real, it would have to be Abs to choose to not bother dicing) then sooner or later the other KDs would stop doing it too because its BORING. problem solved.

No KD of mine has ever chosen to sit around dicing to get to #1. We easily could. Some of our members have in the past. We choose not to waste our days doing that. You can choose that too. But we pay a price for staying smaller. We constantly have to deal with randoms from idiots in top 10 kds right before we are about to declare that often cause delays in our war plans. hmmm this sounds kind of familiar, I have to deal with delays in my goals..... and its annoying...... you have to deal with delays in your goal of getting land.... and its annoying.....

I GUESS ITS JUST THE GAME!

the other thing was, if you don't like the non-dicing KDs interfering, then maybe a new server for all the acre racing dice KDs to go play on is the thing to do. just go over there. You don't need armies. just buildings, peasants and wizards
and you just dice all day.

/me shrugs.

You have been repeatedly told we don't like the strength of dicing as a gameplay mechanic and it creates a boring game. We don't want to dice for weeks. 100% of the top would quit rather than go to your suggested server, it seems a pretty jerky thing to say in a thread trying to make the game more conflict oriented.

When the top players say "please make gameplay changes to encourage more fighting and less time spent dicing/pumping" do you think we are liars? It is honestly unclear if you think it is okay to treat someone like an asshole because you don't like that they want to compete in a game. Guess what? We enjoy the politics and strategy required to do well in the top. Bashing ghettoes is not something we want.

But please stop suggesting that we stop choosing the best strategies to excel at our chosen goals. And please don't embarrass yourself by suggesting that you are somehow better than the top kingdoms. The best warring kingdoms have trouble staying outside the top 10 (snakes, ghetto cats). Even those kingdoms have little chance at being number 1, to suggest you could compete is frankly insulting.

[Elit]

Sheister, this treat is not about hating big kds and game politic. I have enough experience in midle /low rank play and top play to can tell you people in top play much more honorable and fair...ever with all dirty moves. In ghetto range none care and none know what is going. Being waved from 2-3 kds same time, keep being hit for 1 week or being robed constant is normal. I saw so many times how 1 kd act complete lame and have so much fun but when get same they start complain so loud how its unfair. So stop this arguments how all big kds are bad! If you hate them so much build big kd and come to teach them.

About your discussion for nw range. From develop point of view protection small kds have huge impact compare few big kds who can be target from another organized kds out from declare range. So its better to protect 300 kds and leave 5-6 to handle his problems, because they are good enough to make it. From top player view i don't think its fair. Sure i don't like how big kds constant feed on small kds and sure they need to can strike back but when kd in 30-35% range wave big kd because they cant declare its a-bit broken. In very old hostile system when you had option to declare hostile was range 15%? down and 50% up? But was when server are big and had targets for every one. Now game is different. Maybe range should be 30-35% down and 50% up.
I think old system for declare hostile was much better, keep game more dynamic and gave honor kds chance to gain honor. Right now honor system is broken because you cant gain honor if you cant get war.
Maybe optimal is if we adapt part from old system to new system. Keep declare range 50% but add new option "declare peace". Option can be available if your meter is x2 less from aggressor. Declare peace: Declare war is not possible. Make unavailable all hostile ops. Decrease land gains with 10-15%. Aggressor kd keep all hostile bonuses if target kd already made it hostile. While meter decay but get penalty +4h attack time and +10% army losses. When Kd A get peace declaration they get option for force in game CF and its stay for 72h. Maybe my suggestion need to be tuned but i'm sure you get main idea.

Edit: There is other option too about abusing NW range for wave much bigger kds. Just Don't let kds who are not in war/nw range to can attack/op each other. This will limit game much and i don't think its good but at least cant be abused.

[Sheister]

Mal, You are choosing to dice. period. you can choose not to. No one is twisting your arm to dice. There is no one next to you at your computer with a gun to your head saying "dice now!"

Top KD's saying please encourage more warring almost always put forth suggestions that make it easier for them to feed on small KDs. I am opposed to that.

Elit, the last paragraph you suggested is precisely what I was talking about when I said that it would be abused. You pick someone right at the edge of your declare range and then you can full wave them, kicking them out of declare range and then you get no retaliation back. Its a poor solution.

No, this thread is not about hating larger KD's but it just pisses me off whenever I read these elite players talking about solutions that hurt 95% of the player base for their own benefit. I don't care that they are more dedicated etc. Its wrong.

If there is a group that should be on the wrong side of a mechanic, it is the elite players because they are supposed to be better at playing with that penalty than anyone else. That is why things are generally biased to give smaller KD's (read generally less experienced) KD's an advantage. by the way, it also means that there is a point to attack #1 and #2 at ALL when you are int he top five as generally speaking it is not uncommon to have over a 35% NW spread in the top 5 and therefore even at that level #5 needs protection in order to even consider giving #1 a hard time. Of course, for me, I would in some ways love a complete bar as #1 could dice up, some of the top 10 would get waves and then eventually nothing and #1 would just sit there diceturbating for the rest of the age. But then we would have the problem that people in the "top" would feel like dice is too strong and they can't compete.

By the way, dice is NOT too strong. Dice is great the way it is. It allows people to get their provinces evened out after a war in reasonable time. Dice being "OP" is only a problem because of the low target selection at the top and explore costs. Stop locking yourselves out of targets and dice won't be so powerful. Stop living by 48 hr notice CFs with attached exhibits and a 15 page contract that require stupidly long times to prepare for a war. Dice will stop being so important then,

[rsjabba]

i agree with sheister. you don't have to dice to win - you choose to. warring will get you therey... if you're ruthless and willing to get your hands dirty. dicing only seems like the way to do it because you're all doing it. if you don't want to be bored dicing, then don't dice. wave someone. if they ask for a CF, deny and keep waving. you'll be ahead soon enough. hell, look at simians farming out TFC. they chose conflict over dice and they netted 26k acres in a couple of days. granted, it could have (and should have) ended badly for them... but thats another can of worms.
try something new for a change. adapt to the game instead of trying to adapt the game to you.

[Elit]

Elit, the last paragraph you suggested is precisely what I was talking about when I said that it would be abused. You pick someone right at the edge of your declare range and then you can full wave them, kicking them out of declare range and then you get no retaliation back. Its a poor solution.

Correct you are right, but its bad at all. What you think about declare peace option? Its worked perfect in old days.
About CFs/notice deals in top. Its normal. KD in middle/ low rank have over 5-10-20 possible targets. Top land kds have 3-4 targets max. If they start war from yr 2-3 they can war every one for 2-3 week. What is next? War again? Its stupid to war same kd few times if you don't have personal reason. For this land chart kds make CFs and war latter in age. Its more effective, need more complex skills for planing, daily activity, and produce much more interest wars in any aspect.

[Sheister]

I understand that Elit. I like more developed wars too. But that compounds the farming small provs early and underscores why the protection need to be there.

[Elit]

Will be cool if people like Mal,Dorje,ASF, TheRock,flogger and other expert comment my suggestion for bring: declare peace and keep nw range high. If you guys don't like current system offer better solution before next age start.

[jdorje]

A declare-peace option (oow) is a very interesting idea. Flogger suggested it, but we couldn't work out the details of how it should work and not be abusable. Can someone explain how it might?

Also, if you choose not to dice you choose not to try to win. Top kingdoms choose to try to win, therefore they choose to dice, except when they take an off age.

[Sheister]

They they need a strategy to deal with the consequence of that choice dorje, not to alter the mechanics for the rest of the server who do not choose to dice and do not abuse dice.

the only thing I hate about a peace declaration option is if it is used in lieu of diplomacy to end conflicts. But then, that might help the player base as most newer players do not know everyone's secret IRC handshake the way top 20 kds do.