BIO vs ghettocats

[Sheister]

Sheister, Cats is not part from this nw range abuse problem.

Ah you are right. I had thought that they were mentioned in that too among all their other "sins".

Stealing that gold was a setback, it was an annoyance, but I doubt anyone can say that it drastically altered the course of any of those KD's actions last age. I can't say for sure that it did not, because I have no access to anyone's data. Razing into another KD's war is super low-life behavior. I don't care what they did.

[Scavenger]

..., but I doubt anyone can say that it drastically altered the course of any of those KD's actions last age.

So what if it did? Kd's outside of the chosen few can't influence the race for the crown now? I sure hope they'll still have that liberty if they really want.

[Sheister]

that is a valid point too scavenger. My only point is that BiO is drastically over-reacting and being unreasonable in its behavior over however many millions of GCs were stolen because they could not be bother to deal with it then when they were not contending for a crown...or were they? elit thinks they were not contending for a crown then, so they should have had time to deal with it then, but then if they were then that is the reasoning for delaying to this age..... I dunno. The other side of this debate keeps changing their story so much I just can't even figure out how they try to justify this crud.

I only know it is crud.

[Elit]

Sheister, i'm not sure what really happen too. All what i hear/read there from people from different kds is cats robed them. When so many kds report for it there is not need to give any evidence. Sure its happen. Are its was in hostile or not i don't know. My point is other. If cats was in news in same kd for few weeks its really cros any line. Imagine its was done to small ghetto with pure n00bs. They cant strike back and they will be complete demoralized. I think its very bad for game to bully any small kd for long because its make ppl leave. Now back to cats and Bio. Bully small ghettos is bad but bully big kd is danger. If you don't have enough power to fight with them you will end razed. This was done so many times in past. So when cats did it (IF they did it)they take risk and now pay price for this risk. Cats can refuse to be named top kd but they are big and proved to can war well. So in current game standards they can be named top kd too. For this I'm not worry for cats. They are good enough to deal with his problems. If not this age they will make it next. Its how play all good/top kds.

[Palem]

We use diplo fine with people who are nice to us and act reasonable.

"Just fine" is a bit of a stretch, but it's true that sillcats are willing to diplo.

P.S. I'm willing to give any kingdom a full EOA CF (abs included) in exchange for the time and space to raze these guys next age as well. If I so much as become 15% within range of you then you may request to have that 15% margin transferred to you. The top can thank me next age for this.

Jdorje will not accept, will accuse you of having a secret desire to crown and call you an idiot for expecting a "free ride".
...at least if your experience is anything like mine lol

[Elurin]

Palem, you sent all the cute poems to my co while I was on conference - I would've instant CF'd such cuteness =D

[Sheister]

Sheister, i'm not sure what really happen too. All what i hear/read there from people from different kds is cats robed them. When so many kds report for it there is not need to give any evidence. Sure its happen. Are its was in hostile or not i don't know. My point is other. If cats was in news in same kd for few weeks its really cros any line. Imagine its was done to small ghetto with pure n00bs. They cant strike back and they will be complete demoralized. I think its very bad for game to bully any small kd for long because its make ppl leave. Now back to cats and Bio. Bully small ghettos is bad but bully big kd is danger. If you don't have enough power to fight with them you will end razed. This was done so many times in past. So when cats did it (IF they did it)they take risk and now pay price for this risk. Cats can refuse to be named top kd but they are big and proved to can war well. So in current game standards they can be named top kd too. For this I'm not worry for cats. They are good enough to deal with his problems. If not this age they will make it next. Its how play all good/top kds.

Oh I am not saying it did not happen. I am wondering HOW LARGE an impact stealing hoarded gold had over the course of the age. Was it determinative (which is probably impossible to prove/disprove) or was it just REALLY annoying? I am suggesting that if it is just REALLY annoying, there is no way to justify going to the extremes that BiO is taking this.

Now, on a certain level I agree, mess with someone, you get messed with back. I just happen to have a particular ethical code (me and myself) that says that RK into another KDs war over stolen gold (yes I know it was a lot) is overkill. Mess with them all you want Out of war, sure. RK the lot of them out of war. Totally. Steal all their gold and make the completely miserable out of war. Yupp, great. Doing it in war just crosses a line (to me).

[Palem]

@Elurin - Those poems weren't cute!! They were a serious personal reflection on my thoughts on our interactions!


...ok they were adorable ^.^

[protector]

I do not see it being abused. three "examples" of abuse were identified. All three turned out to not be abusive when you really looked at them. Perhaps they were annoying (as the cats stealing gold was annoying) but none of them were determinative, fatal or otherwise a serious problem for the top KDs (just as cats stealing gold did not prevent one of the crown contenders from winning, it just made them adapt to that challenge and adapting to challenges is what wins you the crown (or should.))

Then you're blind or ignorant. It already happened last age, and even more so this age. Why? Due to the declare range change. I don't think you realize how much of a factor this really is for those kingdoms that play for crown.
Take as example the wave from Inso on Rage; I saw it quite early how abusable it was; waving a kingdom out of range which had a good topfeed range core because of 2 calves who push up their total NW. Rage most logical choice would be to just eat the wave and CF. Any other choice would have meant end of the crown race for them.
I think it's a silly change. On the other hand, being able to declare on a kd 50% is also stupid.. but hey, how to fix that? I still think a 50% range is a better option because it calls for much less abuse like this.
Gold stealing (or any other sort of stealing) is no different. Lets say you rob a million from a province a day, over a period of 2 weeks that'd be 14 million lost for that person, which is 'banked' for training, rebuilding and dragons. Thats a big chunk lost, and if multiple provinces have that.. you do the math.

Stealing money repeatedly does just as much damage as being bottomfed. And to be fair; there is hardly any bottomfeeding post yr3 going on, as everyone is dicing from the top. I'm quite sure if you CE the top5 around yr4-6 regularly, you'll see very few or no hits at all.

I think the conclusion is simple: stealing and bottomfeeding are both accepted but have to be reasonable. If you cross a certain line, you piss people off. If you ignore peoples request, you piss people off. Once you cross the line, theres no way back.
Speaking from my own experience in the past, whenever we accidentally hit/opped into a hostile, or repeatedly bottomfed a kingdom, I generally apologized and accepted a CF offer they requested. I see no need to pick on the small guy for weeks for little to no reward.
Apparently Flogger followed the same procedure when he lead Mercy/Pulse, and I'm sure more topkingdoms do the same.

Incorrect. For 1 age we stole into a few of the kd's (including Bio), and never in hostile - possibly with the exception of the logs prot posted, but if so that's the only occurrence I've seen. As for topfeeding in wars, lol come on Benji - if OS waves us and gives button should we not declare cause that would be topfeeding? What Inso was doing to Rage was topfeeding (waving into 25% drafted provs in pump build far out of war range). Pressing a button given to you or waving up 10% is not.

I heard others complain about it as well so there is a good chance it happened more often.

As for our wave on Rage; yes made good use of these broken game mechanics. The 50-200 declare range already has its flaws, but the current is much worse. (I hope dev's see it and will revert it or adjust it)
The choice to wave them was fairly easy when looking back at similar grey area's that Rage explored last age.

Ah you are right. I had thought that they were mentioned in that too among all their other "sins".

Stealing that gold was a setback, it was an annoyance, but I doubt anyone can say that it drastically altered the course of any of those KD's actions last age. I can't say for sure that it did not, because I have no access to anyone's data. Razing into another KD's war is super low-life behavior. I don't care what they did.

Again, I don't think you realize what impact it can have. If KD A looses 200m gc to stealing while KD B looses nothing, that's quite a difference. Perhaps 200m is a bit extreme, but you get the point. Just play a top war once, you'll realize how costly it is.

Hitting into wars is lame but repeatedly stealing for weeks without answering to diplo for a cf is also lame. It's like taking 5 euro from your parents purse every week; it's only a little lost and they might not notice, but over time it's a lot of money you take. Look at the bigger picture

[Agrippa]

I submit that the amount of gc that was stolen immediately prior to conflicts which had been banked for training, rebuilding, dragons, etc. had a much larger impact on the conflicts BIO participated in than the razing of a small chained province that BIO did into Cats war.

[Elit]

I submit that the amount of gc that was stolen immediately prior to conflicts which had been banked for training, rebuilding, dragons, etc. had a much larger impact on the conflicts BIO participated in than the razing of a small chained province that BIO did into Cats war.

Very good compare. For this i don't think bio overreact there. Cats really need good punish because they are so silly!

[Elurin]

Hitting into wars is lame but repeatedly stealing for weeks without answering to diplo for a cf is also lame. It's like taking 5 euro from your parents purse every week; it's only a little lost and they might not notice, but over time it's a lot of money you take. Look at the bigger picture

By prot (no one still tought me how to make "posted by :( ). You should also mention that we CF'd inso after about half the age and had that CF until EoA after you guys complained we had stolen into your hostiles (but even then when I asked for proof I got none, so this was more based on kindness that we felt we robbed you guys a tad much for too long). This type of facts tend to be left out of these argumentative posts :)

[Palem]

QUOTE="username" inside of the brackets.

[Bigbob]

Bio man up.... They wouldn't cf you? Raze them for 24 hours then ask again lol no need for raze into war or gb being 2x the size should be enough leverage to force cf last age without loosing a whole lot lol

[Anri]

Elurin: I am soon traveling to Crete so we will see if our KDs are still left when we are back. :)

All others have fun here while we are off drinking cold beers