Hostile Simians style

[Lykron]

I will clarify a few things here. I did not know who was who in the bank world. If i had known Csarmi was #1 bank i would have CFed him and given him #1 cause he is a good guy. I took for granted it was an enemy and gave OK on the hits on him. Our chance to take him down a notch werent to be missed when he was in my eyes considered to be an enemy. I had no clue that Csarmi was banking.

So, in conclusion here we rape people not in CF that we consider to be enemies.
(If i had known Csarmi played that prov he would have been considered friendly and given CF).

I have not been active enough to try and lead the banks so i gave them more or less the free hands. Things like this was bound to happen with Calle and Apoplexia up there. They are rather fearless, active and greedy banks. I have had no intention at all to talk to people and been involved in all the crazy bank diplomacy. The rest of the KD have been waving other targets despite of bank fights going on. The council have concentrated on this and we been pissed if we got any extra diplomatic issues because of the banks. If the banks stepped on a few to many toes its my fault for not being active enough. I ofc stand by my players but they have to find thier own ways to win and do the diplomacy. But in the Csarmi conflict i would have stopped things if i had known it was him. There is no more to it really.

Simians just being Simians. . Things do get nasty and we do hurt people from time to time. It happens to us and it happens to others. Just the way it goes.

so what you are saying is that you consider ok to raze in other people's war just to have your cows win and you only regret it if it turns out they aren't your enemy... using that logic it should be acceptable for your enemies as well to raze your cows from oow in your future wars since u consider that acceptable gameplay. i think there was enough proof here that it wasn't a farm war: unique count, a 5k acres prov going down in csarmi's kd, csarmi's core topfeeding enemy kd's core. all this proves it was a real and legit war.
csarmi managing to gain 10k acres and not get fireballed while choosing to aid his kd mates and not train defense AREN'T REASONS to raze from oow. they're just retarded pretexts.
what motivated you to act in such dishonorable way is GRRED. ppl don't disrespect you because you attack them. they do it because you pull crap like this and then pretend it's ok. saying that you didn't lead this after admitting you gave your kingdom mates the OK to raze in Csarmi's war is also a lame excuse.

[Lykron]

Csarmi may not intentionally farmed, he just ended up in that in the situation. I would not have stopped him if i knew it was him. But with most others we would still have done the same thing. Its bank world and i did OK the hits. The game created the situation.
Banks need to be stopped and i said it for so many ages. Banks is not good for this game. I am hoping we can see some more fixes next age to stop the banks.
However if this prov would have been some anon player we would still have raped him. Why would we let anyone get to 35k acres freely and then be able to farm both our two banks? There should have been a CF up. If Simians had been in a 10 day war with two banks on 30k+ acres we would have been hard to stop. We have the CFs and the protection. I dont know if its us or Csarmi to blame for what he put himself into or for us taking down an wide open bank without any protection at all.

I need to know if Csarmi beleived we would not hit him and why he did not get CF with me? Was he gunning to dominate and take our banks out after war?

All just jump on Simians for the hits, but there is way more to it. I blame the game itself mostly.

more lame reasons for hitting in other people's wars. maybe next age when you try to charts ABS should raze you from oow because you could be gunning for them later. using your logic it's ok since they're your enemies and also why should they let u war 1vs1 when they have chance to raze you from oow and stop you from getting in a better position ?
could be that they think simians growing is bad for the game. as far as i am concerned this is just as valid as "banks are bad for the game" or "it's bank world" reasons.
i doubt you don't realise that what you did is lame play. i dunno why u continue to back it up with even more ridiculous statements

[Anri]

Csarmi - No, we will not give back the acres. You razed our bank x6 times in revenge action!

Also like i said the banks had more or less free hands. This was a larger action, hitting #1 prov is. So Calle and apoplexia asked if it was okey. There was no CF and i did not know who was playing #1 bank so i said "ok". There is no reason a human should be allowed to sitt in a pump war with 550k pessies togging and then coming OOW to feed all other banks. Its just not okey when CF was not there. I was unaware that you had attempted to CF us. If you had reached me i am sure we had sorted this out long before.

[Anri]

Btw i approve of Jdorjes post and something needs to be done about it.

Why else would we run two banks? It has its clear advantages if rest of core is in range vs opponent. Big disadvantage if its not.

[goodz]

Btw i approve of Jdorjes post and something needs to be done about it.

Why else would we run two banks? It has its clear advantages if rest of core is in range vs opponent. Big disadvantage if its not.

If your banks are growing in a war where they are out of range of the enemies core does that make it a fake/farm war automatically? ^_^

I am quite interested to see how closely your opinions match calles

[Anri]

If your banks are growing in a war where they are out of range of the enemies core does that make it a fake/farm war automatically? ^_^

I am quite interested to see how closely your opinions match calles

Its situation based. If our two banks held #1 and #2 and kept farming away with more then a 10k lead then a big yes.

Csarmi was growing out of control with millions worth of gc in one ToG. Why would anyone allow competition to win just like that? This was and is not a normal circumstance. It was just not any bank in any war and the situation is still very complicated.

Edit: Id allow competion to win if it was a friend or if we could not stop the enemy due to a CF or taking him out would be to risky.

[DHaran]

Its situation based. If our two banks held #1 and #2 and kept farming away with more then a 10k lead then a big yes.

Csarmi was growing out of control with millions worth of gc in one ToG. Why would anyone allow competition to win just like that? This was and is not a normal circumstance. It was just not any bank in any war and the situation is still very complicated.

Edit: Id allow competion to win if it was a friend or if we could not stop the enemy due to a CF or taking him out would be to risky.

The other kingdom has the option to WD. Who the hell are you to interfere with that conflict?

[Anri]

The other kingdom has the option to WD. Who the hell are you to interfere with that conflict?

Look, Csarmi could have trained up and made them auto-wd by day 7.
He choosed to keep farming and keep crazy economy. That he did not take the win on that point makes it really clear to me. He kept war going so he could farm. Thats why he kept 550k peasants and kept gaining acres day by day instead of drafting/training to get the auto-win.

People are focking blind!

This was far from a normal situation and it had to end. If i known this was Csarmi i would have let him do it still. But i didnt know it so when it was under my beleif an enemy that kept farming in a war non stop while being #1 and getting out of control then we did what we had too.

You call me crazy if you want.

[Anri]

I bet his own KD did not even understand the situation at hand and that they could have won long before...

Dont judge me and dont judge all BS you hear when someone comes here and cries wolf!!

Every single bank player on this server gets greedy and will not openly admit it. This is exactly what happend and we put an end to it.

[DHaran]

Look, Csarmi could have trained up and made them auto-wd by day 7.
He choosed to keep farming and keep crazy economy. That he did not take the win on that point makes it really clear to me. He kept war going so he could farm. Thats why he kept 550k peasants and kept gaining acres day by day instead of drafting/training to get the auto-win.

People are focking blind!

This was far from a normal situation and it had to end. If i known this was Csarmi i would have let him do it still. But i didnt know it so when it was under my beleif an enemy that kept farming in a war non stop while being #1 and getting out of control then we did what we had too.

You call me crazy if you want.

So you are deciding the builds and strats of warring kingdoms now? Why would he purposely force an auto-wd if he didn't have to? If a kingdom refuses to WD that is their problem, not yours, not anyone else's. I'm not calling you crazy, I'm saying you're a coward and a hypocrite. Simians refused to WD and farmed out to let someone win #1, yet you want to act like you get to decide someone else can't fight it out and farm out? You're a joke.

[csarmi]

Actually, I couldn't train up and win by day 7. Check the war charts.

http://www.******************.eu/vei...ve-wars?id=662

And here's the log of my convo with Anri, mostly me explaining how the war wnet and him calling it farming and greedy every now and then. I think you guys should read this. I don't think I can give a better account of the war even if I tried to make one coherent post.

Just one extra thing to add: No, I never made it a priority to finish the war as quickly as possible. Why should I? We enjoyed it. They had the withdraw option. I think they would have found it in a day or so. Even if the auto-win had crossed my mind before saturday or so, I think I wouldn't have bothered with it. It's a method to claim win against a completely and unreasonably stubborn enemy, as a last safety measure built in by the gae designers. It's not built int to be 'ABUSED' by the bigger kd.

Logs of convo with Anri: http://pastebin.com/v589wWai

[goodz]

Its situation based. If our two banks held #1 and #2 and kept farming away with more then a 10k lead then a big yes.

Csarmi was growing out of control with millions worth of gc in one ToG. Why would anyone allow competition to win just like that? This was and is not a normal circumstance. It was just not any bank in any war and the situation is still very complicated.

Edit: Id allow competion to win if it was a friend or if we could not stop the enemy due to a CF or taking him out would be to risky.

What if you were losing the war or it was very even? then someone starts hitting your banks down in war causing you to lose? Is that fair? Doesn't seem so. What would him training do. Look at his KD's trade balance it is all -millions of gc. He wasn't just stockpiling gold he was aiding and quad tapping as often as he could. Training a larger military would have left him at the same size...

[Bishop]

While it's an interesting discussion, you show a misunderstanding of mechanics here.

It's not cows or exploring that is the problem; it's the overpoweredness of excessive bottomfeeding or perhaps the underpoweredness of excessive topfeeding.

A province twice the size of an enemy core can typically hit them 2x or so for 3.5% gains each, call it 7% gains per hit on the largest enemy province. But a province 4x or 10x the size of enemy core can hit 4x for 3.5% gains, 14% per unique: more than any in-range province can hit for. On top of that you have networth penalties against opping such a province. Typically when you outgrow the server it's very safe to pump and so such provinces have good science, tpa, and wpa.

You can look at the top end of mercy, rage, or pulse to see this in action. Topfeeding on kingdoms like this would be almost impossible to win because they would have so many well-prepared unbreakables. If a kingdom like Sanctuary were to get to 90% of their size we'd still have essentially no chance at winning against such a setup as any of those 3 kingdoms would have half a dozen csarmi-like "cows".

Seeing how to improve the overpoweredness of OOR big provinces without underpowering them is tricky. Reducing min gains from 3.5% to 2.5% might do it (10% on a quad), but might also underpower unbreakables. Reducing the networth penalties on thief and mage ops (BOTH ways) might do it. Fixing exploration so that provinces at all sizes can explore and you don't get just a few provinces at large size that can pump at will might help. To put it bluntly, right now it's almost impossible to beat a similarly-skilled and similarly-prepared kingdom that is larger than you, because they have proportionally more military and can do more damage per wave with that military than you can. And in a long war, once one side gets a few high-econ unbreakables they just keep feeding those provinces acres until the other side is only 50% of their networth.

That's only in war and isn't the only/main reason banks are a win button though. OOW you typically have kdnw to back you up. Apart from that the massive aid dumps are the main reason banks tend to help win stuff. You could drop min gains, but i can't see that alleviating the pressure to run a bank.

"To put it bluntly, right now it's almost impossible to beat a similarly-skilled and similarly-prepared kingdom that is larger than you"

^^ this is far trickier and i dont have a good answer really. Should the larger kd not have an advantage to stop stagnation?

[csarmi]

Also @Anri: I think you misunderstood the "I don't care unless returned to my previous acres" part. Unless that is done, I don't have much intention bothering with this age at all, certainly not in the near future. You can bouncewave or not, you canraze me out or not (I suppose you should be able to, with such a kd of ud's backing you up). I told you, what I give a **** about if 1) fairplay 2) kd happiness 3) my #1 chances. Unless 1), 2) and 3) are ut back into place, I just have no willingness to care. I might or might not s-play you back at some point, i don't even care if I do.

It's about you stepping up, telling people that "yes, we went too far here, there you go" that would give me back the faith in utopian fairplay. Whatever there is. Of it.

It's kind of an all or nothing situation if you check my perspective here. And no, I'm not bluffing you.
and as i said, lets both sleep over it

[dingdingdong]

I bet his own KD did not even understand the situation at hand and that they could have won long before...

Dont judge me and dont judge all BS you hear when someone comes here and cries wolf!!

Every single bank player on this server gets greedy and will not openly admit it. This is exactly what happend and we put an end to it.

Csarmi told us that we can request for withdraw if we feel like losing or boring. We choose to war win, for me I want the science reward.
And now who are you to judge us?

You and your kd mate are closely monitoring us, you know that our kd nw have raise very fast 2-3 day before the raze. And you we are going claim our war win soon, and you raze us just right before we are about to win? We going to end it and you raze us to end it? We don't need you to end it, who are you?

Everyone is greedy, not just bank. But not every one is dirty. I am greedy too, i want war win reward. I wonder any saint playing utopia?
Your intention is clear, secure chance of #1 no matter what, even you have to interfere a legit warring kingdom.