Evil Dragons...

[Medicine]

At the end of the day, I think ED fully expected that we'd get "paid back" for raze killing a province and I personally have no problem with that at all. All that has been achieved here is that The Unsullied and Debauchery have shown utopia exactly how pathetic they are. Of course we're all well aware that there are idiots in both of those KDs who are at home in the xbox live generation of hooting and whooping about how amazing OOW razing a KD is but the reality to those not blinded by stupidity is that both of you will run from fights and are easy to power play. Maybe next time you want to claim you had nothing to do with assisting Debauchery you might not want to be caught helping land drop and having people with ops in each others channels to scratch the surface.

Silverfox is correct (which he is in most of his post) that RK:ing provinces in weaker KDs will cause grudge, and that bullied KDs will pay back when they have a chance. Paying back in war is obviously not the most honorable deed, but in this case the means that a bullied KD will do when they see few other options. Similar to the "statement Razekills" made by ED (which seem surprisingly fine with many) , the payback RK was also a statement "Bullying has its price and a bully should never feel safe... not even in war". The fact that this not-so-honorbable-payback-RK will indeed be costly does not take away from this statement of people saying "NO" to being bullied.

The insinuation that there are more "idiots" in the two stated KDs than KDs in general, or perhaps in Silverfox own KD, is mere speculation since Silverfox knows little about this. From my experience, the two ppl from ED that I talked to were the most unfriendly, patronizing and insolent people I have talked to since I started this game around age 7 or 8 (I would be surprised if there were fewer idiots in his own KD than any of the two stated).

I guess the crunch is that there is a difference in that some KDs wants warring (which can actually be done in a decent manner) while others are interested in boosting their egos, which doesn't need to include any deceny at all.

[Reason]

@Bishop: history should be used for teaching, not forgot.

[DHaran]

@Bishop: history should be used for teaching, not forgot.

No, it's just a stupid and irrelevant comparison, so there's no reason getting into that crap here. Move on.

[silverfox]

Without going in depth, raze has always been a destructive factor in the game on a bigger level than just "killing land" from one player.

All provinces start on the same land totals meaning there is a limited number of acres in the game, without new acres entering the game then it would be zero sum so for you to grow 100 acres everyone else has to lose 100 acres collectively.

This just leads to stagnation when the game reaches a point that players can't take land from others without losing land themselves and it just becomes a giant tug of war with only the very top who can bottom feed making any small gains. Even worse is that every acre razed is lost meaning that people are fighting over even less total acres.

So comes the reason for explore pools, daily 5 free acres, etc. as ways to replace land lost from razes and as a way to increase the total acres everyone is fighting for at a reasonable rate over the course of an age. It's also the reason that razes no-longer remove land in war and just kill buildings as raze killing with minimum gains was always a better (or only) way to disable a province which in turn encouraged KDs to lower the total acres in game.

When you have kingdoms who constantly shave off land all age then they are a destructive force against the game as they are not only looking to pick on weaker kingdoms, something which goes against the whole "we war anyone" trash they like to spew forth, but they lower the available acre pool for everyone.

Back before legal trading if you were hit intra KD 5 times then killed you lost your province, none of this simple "trade back" at the push of an invite, so you either had to script back a province or you had to force/persuade some random to give you their province when it landed in your KD. Now the devs have placed -20% honour on intra-KD attacks and you still get idiots coming up with justifications like "It's fine they just want you to chose between war wins and honour" while sadly their hands are tied to stop anyone asking a friend for a raze (unless it turned into fake wars where they would investigate and ban people for land dropping).

Where is the fun in warring noobs? We derive much more satisfaction going against kds who can truly give us a good tough war. However these kds normally won't be all at the same acreage.

This is a war game, go and war Sanc or one of the other KDs who are constantly at the top? When was the last time a "war KD" came OOP with a growth strat and then started smashing the other top 5-10 KDs with waves? No, because you'd rather just come OOP and find some easy war to roll your face through.

You see, you try to paint the picture that you need to gain and lose acres to war all the good kingdoms, while the reality is you've probably never switched to a growth strat and tried to gain +20% your land in order to take on another KD or ever tried to take on the top kingdoms. All you want is a little excuse to make your TPA/WPA and sci better.

So...land dropping is unethical...therefore, aid and dice are also. Considering that land dropping is used as to be in nw range with most KDs (land 'size' being not that important to all, as it seems to be for some...) and that dice and aid are used so that one gets in range with those that are bigger or to be bigger, all 3 things are unethical.
In order to be ethical, there should be a standard land and nw size for all.
The fact that a larg kd says to a small one that they should man-up and grow the rest of the 20% nw or land difference between them, while keeping up the sci-learn attacks, is not different from: a bully saying that he is taking a little kid's lunch money, untill the little one grows and becomes able to defend himself; a muscled man that keeps beating a thin person until that person grows some; one that rapes women.....until they man-up.

If we all should be competitive as one claims, then we should all have the same land and nw size, so that we can all fight each other from an equal point. As long as we allow some to grow the best they can, we should also allow others to be small (though being a bully or should I say a 'Man' seems to be considered as the ethical 'beacon'...).
One can not expect all others to copy his own acts/image! That is why there are so many ways in which one can develop in this game (some pick being a warring kd, some pick being the highest in NW or Land size).
Forcing everybody to grow to the standards set by the biggest is not ethical. Forcing the small/the unexperienced ones to grow as to satisfy the need of the bigger ones to be able to brag on how they smashed them is....I can't even think about how to call it!


I guess Hitler also tried to....man-up some....

Everyone does start on equal footing, it's called protection (with the exception of people with less provs).

If you chose not to keep up with bigger KDs then that is your choice, if you are incapable of keeping up with bigger KDs then that is your loss. This is a game, better players have an advantage over others. I guess by your logic I should be allowed to sit on 5k acres and cry about being hit by 10k acre provinces because I can't do a thing back to them, and I'd be justified to do so?

In this game size is power, if someone can raze you 4 times and you can't hit them back then they are stronger than you, this is a fact. If I have the activity to make 2 attacks per day then in an "ideal world" I could grown ~twice as fast as someone who can only do half my attacks, I have a clear advantage over them yet I can just sit there and stay small then destroy them via activity alone, there is nothing fair in keeping yourself small to beat KDs via activity rather than strategy.

Besides this your whole point is irrelevant to the thread, ED have been less than 10% larger than both KDs they've raze killed a province in and both KDs could have stopped it by going to war, there is no picking on smaller KDs here they're both war KDs who were in close range. You might also have missed the fact that our relative KD NW for wars is larger than both other KDs in question.

[Reason]

@DHaran: I was about to question cursing, pic, nick, but then I remembered why I quit this game for a few years, after playing it from almost the begining..... better to play 'strategy' games, where fun rules, not bullies.
Unfortunately, some things nether change.

[Zauper]

@Olaph, what you do not consider is that after the win, each kd takes a pump period. And that period is used by bigger kd's as to attack the newly grown while it is at its weakest moment.
When such things happen, you get learned for days for not wanting to war and one of your provs gets PKed.

So what you're trying to say is that you have an issue with strippers being treated the way they treat others?
1) Taking resources from kds in war.
2) Hitting a kd not fighting back for days.
I'm just checking.

And again -- in a grudge situation, you should expect to get hit, not left alone.

@Korp and Zauper, pls see the reply for Olpah. You forget that after growth, is exploited by the already grown.

English? You could war the already grown. We got hit by a kd 20% our size, and we proceeded to turn around and crush them.

@Zauper on rambling stories: pls read previous posts, u will find the reference, as I only used the words used by a 'knowledgeable' user (post #261 - user=Zauper)

"Also, lol@#6 on Persain's list above, since that's exactly what we did to you that made you so sad.

We made our intentions clear -- we wanted you to man up.
"
Are you denying your own writting?

No. My post has nothing to do with your random pointless stories.

We were less than 5% larger than Strippers, not 20% larger.

Reason -- fun for who? The only one that has fun in dealing with LD kds are the land-droppers themselves. By doing what they do -- making themselves smaller to fight weaker kds -- they make the game less enjoyable for those kds. What you don't seem to realize is that it is itself bullying.

[Reason]

@Z....the reference to the Strippers has no base, as I was not talking about them.

[Olpah]

@Reason

No i dont think anyone running ops and hits into a kingdom that is in EOWCF. (After following this thread, maybe you do but the majority of the people don't). Pumping period after war allows you to pump to 85-100% of being fully train and converted to war, that is what it's there for. Another 24-48 in fortified with its bonuses gets you to 100% - no excuses. That means you are in a position to either defend or make aggressive actions out of EOWCF - you are not at your weakest moment. If you are at your weakest moment then you are not playing correctly.

[silverfox]

@DHaran: I was about to question cursing, pic, nick, but then I remembered why I quit this game for a few years, after playing it from almost the begining..... better to play 'strategy' games, where fun rules, not bullies.
Unfortunately, some things nether change.

You know there's a line between having a point and just coming across as sounding pathetic.

This is a war game, it's a game which allows you to take things from other people, if you can't handle this concept without dragging in idiotic concepts like bullying then it's probably best you don't play this game. You might feel fine comparing some KD giving others a choice to make with bullying, but where exactly does your line get drawn? Is it fine for me to random someone and take something they worked for from them? Is it still fine if I know they can't hurt me back? How is that fine while hitting a KD who can fight back is not? What about waving a KD who you don't think can fight back? How many attacks takes it from being "fair game" into "bullying", stop trying to apply your unquantifiable criteria.

Not even going to touch on your constant Nazi links and the disservice you do people who have actually suffered bullying with your liberal complaints.

[THX1912]

@THX, I guess the comparison with the bully in school did not disturb u much...

I don't see where that's coming from, or where you're going with this... Sorry.

[Sheister]

wtf are you people discussing anymore?

This is stupid.

where is that internet special olympics argument picture........

/me goes on a search

***EDIT***

found it!

[Zauper]

wtf are you people discussing anymore?

You're right, we should get back on topic with a handy dandy war summary:

Total Attacks Made: 240 (+15812 acres)
Total Attacks Suffered: 161 (-12284 acres)
Net Exchange: +3528 acres

[Shaded]

Post some relevant information pertaining to the war....such as UB's on each side, and networth correlation - nobody cares how many acres you took :p

[Zauper]

Post some relevant information pertaining to the war....such as UB's on each side, and networth correlation - nobody cares how many acres you took :p

Gosh. Compared to the quoted starts, we're +90k NW relative to them. That's +290k NW when you factor in NW lost from oow razes / nw gained from them adding two provs.

They have no UBs. We have some.

Each side sent/killed 2 sapphire dragons. There, some boring details you could probably have figured out by looking at our kdpages. Happy?

Does that help?

[Gerald Tarrant]

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Lord Acton

Land dropping. The curse word of the thread. And the most hated of peoples.

Raze killing. The means to force a one sided war(exaggeration). Or stay off boredom for a few days.(Spot on)

Land dropping, is an interesting topic. Primarily because you can label anyone with it in the right situation. Especially if you have 0 real interest in the truth. And prefer your own misguided opinions, to further your own goals. It all depends on, how critical you are,or on how much influence you have with the people listening to you blather on endlessly. If you have a great deal, you can convince sheep of any truth. And if you have an unassailable supply, You don't even care ^^


Land drop:
1)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. Attackers build into there acres with an extra 1-2 days of pumping.You look for war targets. No one wants to war you, going as high at 15% larger net due to 2 unbreakable massive attackers(illogical, but true).
AKA Boring age. granted you could just farm the blazes out of anyone, and by doing so, slowly grow into your acres. not very sporting, but it could get you an occasional war.

2)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. Those Attackers get randomly hit by some big kingdom Immediately after CF is ended. Leaving them at 1900 acres.
Land dropping with help? that would depend on the accuser's opinion wouldn't it ^^

3)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. You raze down both attackers to 1500 acres. Loosing a large amount of honor(and bonuses that go with it,Something I am personally very happy to see added) to remove your potentially unbreakable attackers.
Land dropping to.. fight the next category of net worth kingdoms faster? You lose no net in this situation , as they were empty acres. You do still remove acres from the game. Which I would say, is mildly frown-upon-able. (But raze killing a 1500 acre prov(that explored his but off for
3 days and hovered around 800 acres for 2 of those), removes land and honor from the game ^^ not to mention science that some big Orc will learn attack from said prov at some point.)

4)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. You raze down everyone to 1,000 acres max.
Insta ready to war a ghetto. Sure. It's a viable option. No one will like you. you will likely be targeted all age by larger KDs for free gold and science, and land. But it is an option unless it is specifically written in the rules not to do such things. Which could happen, if enough players request it I imagine.

5)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. You try and grow your 1300 acre provs to 1800 acres to bridge the gap in net worth, and waste a large chunk of time. Unless you decide to try and run for the top. Just be careful when you get close, you don't become the farm that feeds the top, to the top....

In all 5 cases, it is likely that 2-6 of your provinces will be 300-600 acres.And will simply never catch up. Only one of these examples would be considered, land dropping to ghetto bash, And therefore, worthy of a raze kill. in fact, it would be worthy of several. We need newbies, they are players, that become Utopians. And the more players, the larger the game. If I have to explain why that is the absolutely most desirable thing, for the players and the owners, your IQ is a single digit.

I would add a war loss listing. And be more creative with the numbers, but I wager anyone reading this thread can do basic math just fine. And the math was never the point.

As for ED. You were 600k net larger. Which amounted to 11% Net difference. Had we finished our pump without being waved (Before you decided to kill our small guy for fun) for 6 land hits and 7 massacres(3 on each elf and 1 on an Orc) Our acres would have changed, -400,-500 max. The big fat viscount Orc with 26k modded def on 1900 acres (ish) And a grand total of 40k mod off, took a massacre(Silly as his WPA/TPA was around a .5). You show back up, almost 2 days later(you did give us time) And out of no where, kill a guy. Our paper was unavailable maby. Or maby, you didn't really care that much. Your assumption took one of our provs out. Fast to. Was an impressive display of action. Not surprising with an average online time for each prov being in the 15 hour range. But still completely judgmentally wrong.

This thread started. You killed someone else. I really don't care why. I have always been against killings. When your province died in fact, once upon a time, It was the worst thing you could do to a Player. Now, it's just extremely rude. But completely acceptable. Because really. What can you do? No one is going to, or will ever, stop you from playing how you want. people are like that. Sometimes however, you catch a curveball in the teeth. And when you get up, and call in your team, and beat the crap out of the pitcher, leaving his corpse for the crows, your tooth is still in the dirt. To quote a great movie in a corney way,

"The world will never know you existed at all."

"The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant. That few stood against many. And before this battle was over that even a god-king can bleed.(The up side is, the Spartans, were Spartans,And not shepherds.)