Evil Dragons...

[Utopiannoob1]

to go into a war with your attackers land spread from 500 acres to 3,000 acres is just stupid and their isn't a single kingdom that would deny you are better off when all you're provs are similar in land/nw (banks excluded)....in war some provs get chained and others don't..it would take weeks to get all the players up to the size of your biggest prov...meaning you would not be able to war nearly as many times in the short 12 week age...

every one knows this.... so after war the smaller provs grow a bit and the larger ones shrink a bit..and some sort of middle ground is reached....from the post of the couple razes i seen that is exactly what happenned... during this process the kingdom normally gains more land than it losses

id understand the arguement if every prov in the kingdom got razed but thats not the case here so all of this talk is just nonsense...

and is being used as an excuse by ED to raze provs and act like their not being douches

[Arka]

^ actually it is much better to have provinces spread out from 500 acres to 3000 acres if you are waring. You just do not know why and I am not about to tell you why.

[silverfox]

Let's just clear somethings up here as this convo is getting way out of hand and actually no longer has much to do with anything, while a lot of people seem to think they're debating something valid.

In brief:

- ED aren't utopia police, if people want to land drop we're not going to swing by and randomly start raze killing some 3 mill NW KD because they shaved off 500 acres from a random province. That however, doesn't mean to say we agree with it.

- The topic revolving around land dropping is neither here nor there, the only reason land dropping was brought up is because it was relevant to our actions. We asked for a war against The Unsullied and they played along saying they'd likely war us, they asked for people to raze them even doing it in public channels we were idle in. After ~48 hours of us waiting expecting them to war us they then refuse stating ED are too big, this is why land dropping is mentioned because it is directly related to their excuses for not waring us... We then offered to defect a 200k prov to make NW sizes more even and they again refused stating that we had a dragon paid for, so we'd wasted 48 hours and a few million gold to be tossed stupid excuses, ergo we decided if they liked land dropping we would provide them with more free razes.

- Debauchery land dropping, I believe this was brought up as it is in direct conflict to their monarchs quotes that they were "trying to grow into range to war us", how do you grow into range while having acres hacked off by anon hits and razes? Our beef with them has zero to do with their play style of land dropping, it might be mentioned as an ancillary reason for why we do not like their play style of hitting into EoWFCs, ghetto bashing, et al.

Neither of or raze kills or grudges has been directly "going after land droppers", the fact that it is there is a personal added bonus.

So you can all save your definitions of land dropping, no-one will ever get everyone to agree on what is and is not acceptable. People claim that you "can't do something" because of chained provs and provs outgrowing their KD, we had 5 wars last age in ~7-8 weeks and we've had 4 wars this age in 6 weeks against larger average KDs.

Maybe you should work on using what you have and how to wield it instead of being a one trick pony needing provs to line up in nice neat sizes so you can chain in order the only way you know how.

[SillyRabbit]

Debauchery land dropping, I believe this was brought up as it is in direct conflict to their monarchs quotes that they were "trying to grow into range to war us", how do you grow into range while having acres hacked off by anon hits and razes?

la la la, we knocked down a big orc before our war with LIARS. After war 5, we genuinely were growing to fight you. We knew you would know who we are by now. We even let you take all that gc while in post war cf. But then we ask for a few more days for personal reasons and ED cannot meet in the middle.

Yeah "if u cant get ready in 4 days, ur doing something wrong" bla bla bla, we have had 5 back to back wars, we know what we are doing, the 4 days was not for pumping as I've explained in an earlier message.

ED sits at 39k acres for 2 weeks and we just finally get to 38k after a war win. But yeah, we are even strength and "should have been ready", or rather "should man-up"

[silverfox]

la la la, we knocked down a big orc before our war with LIARS. After war 5, we genuinely were growing to fight you. We knew you would know who we are by now. We even let you take all that gc while in post war cf. But then we ask for a few more days for personal reasons and ED cannot meet in the middle.

Yeah "if u cant get ready in 4 days, ur doing something wrong" bla bla bla, we have had 5 back to back wars, we know what we are doing, the 4 days was not for pumping as I've explained in an earlier message.

ED sits at 39k acres for 2 weeks and we just finally get to 38k after a war win. But yeah, we are even strength and "should have been ready", or rather "should man-up"

It is irrelevant to me whether you land dropped or not, I'm only stating why others have mentioned it.

From your perspective you find us unreasonable because we wouldn't give you the time to pump so that we could have a "fair" war, as I have mentioned previously however the notion that our war would be "fair" is quickly removed from the table by the fact we have an extra province. There is no way to say the rest without sounding like an arrogant jerk so I'll just say it as I believe is true, you believe that you could have a fair war as you see your kingdom as equals or even better based on your war win from last age, the reality is however that we've removed a large portion of the KD who were not active enough, have a full KD and were aware or people telling us Strippers leadership had partially left and while we might not be the best in the game there is no doubt as to where I see both our standings this age.

As I told you this was never a war of glory where 2 KDs would fight for the title of being better, this was a war to show our standing that we will not be pushed around, to show that we don't forget people thinking they can f**k with us when we're down and that quite frankly we'll make FSU KD's play style look like a summer picnic when we need to. The icing on the cake was to do this 2v1, remove the initial anger and you both couldn't have played a better part so far.

Oh and just to clear things up, we finished our last war ~10 days before we hit you. That war was 7 days long and against a KD 120% of our size, we'd pretty much spent a week having people logging in at stupid times to attack and people wanted a break. During this time we also got waved and waved another KD, along with having a T5 KD trying to farm out our large human. So we didn't just sit there pumping for 2 weeks, yes I had like 10% banks instead of a full war build but we were all prepped for war if we found something (only reason we didn't war when waved is because we'd decided 100% to wait for you by then). Most of us were semi-active and enjoying a break.

[Zauper]

Land dropping, is an interesting topic. Primarily because you can label anyone with it in the right situation. Especially if you have 0 real interest in the truth. And prefer your own misguided opinions, to further your own goals. It all depends on, how critical you are,or on how much influence you have with the people listening to you blather on endlessly. If you have a great deal, you can convince sheep of any truth. And if you have an unassailable supply, You don't even care ^^

You can really only label people who land drop as land droppers. If they don't land drop, it would take a pretty substantial stretch of imagination to try to apply a land drop label to them.

Land drop:
1)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. Attackers build into there acres with an extra 1-2 days of pumping.You look for war targets. No one wants to war you, going as high at 15% larger net due to 2 unbreakable massive attackers(illogical, but true).

You haven't land dropped in this scenario. You also don't have trouble finding wars -- with a situation similar to what you've described, we've managed to get 10 wars in the last 12 weeks.

AKA Boring age. granted you could just farm the blazes out of anyone, and by doing so, slowly grow into your acres. not very sporting, but it could get you an occasional war.

False...

2)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. Those Attackers get randomly hit by some big kingdom Immediately after CF is ended. Leaving them at 1900 acres.
Land dropping with help? that would depend on the accuser's opinion wouldn't it ^^

Not land dropping, unless there were evidence that you were organizing land drops. Evidence might include asking for them in a public channel (which unsullied did, prior to trading land drops with strippers). Getting hit does not = land dropping.

3)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. You raze down both attackers to 1500 acres. Loosing a large amount of honor(and bonuses that go with it,Something I am personally very happy to see added) to remove your potentially unbreakable attackers.
Land dropping to.. fight the next category of net worth kingdoms faster? You lose no net in this situation , as they were empty acres. You do still remove acres from the game. Which I would say, is mildly frown-upon-able. (But raze killing a 1500 acre prov(that explored his but off for
3 days and hovered around 800 acres for 2 of those), removes land and honor from the game ^^ not to mention science that some big Orc will learn attack from said prov at some point.)

You lose net. You lose acres. You lose honor. Losing acres costs you net (because acres have a nw value), and it also has an opportunity cost of net (i.e. if you actually had trained on that land, your nw would be much higher). Potentially you had peasants on that land as well.

Unethical and discouraged by game mechanics.

4)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. You raze down everyone to 1,000 acres max.
Insta ready to war a ghetto. Sure. It's a viable option. No one will like you. you will likely be targeted all age by larger KDs for free gold and science, and land. But it is an option unless it is specifically written in the rules not to do such things. Which could happen, if enough players request it I imagine.

Unethical.

5)You win a war. 2 of your Attackers have 2400 acres, and your next largest player is 1300. You try and grow your 1300 acre provs to 1800 acres to bridge the gap in net worth, and waste a large chunk of time. Unless you decide to try and run for the top. Just be careful when you get close, you don't become the farm that feeds the top, to the top....

You don't need to grow your provinces to 1800 to war. You could....just war. You could also grow them to 1500 and war. The concern over 'is everyone the same size' is ridiculous.

In all 5 cases, it is likely that 2-6 of your provinces will be 300-600 acres.And will simply never catch up.

This is false. It is incredibly easy to catch up as a small province. For example, last age I started about 7 weeks in. By age end, I was ~10k acres and one of the largest in my kingdom.

Only one of these examples would be considered, land dropping to ghetto bash, And therefore, worthy of a raze kill.

False. All of the examples that I labelled unethical would be land dropping. You know -- all of the examples that include land dropping. Any time you cooperate with another kingdom, or act on your own, to remove acres from your kingdom*, you are land dropping.
*On provinces that you are not killing.

in fact, it would be worthy of several. We need newbies, they are players, that become Utopians. And the more players, the larger the game. If I have to explain why that is the absolutely most desirable thing, for the players and the owners, your IQ is a single digit.

Sure, I agree that we need newbies. That is a reason why land dropping -- any land dropping -- is bad. Even if it only removes 2% of a kingdoms land, that means they're in range to fight a kingdom that is 2% smaller/newer/ghettoer.

As for ED. You were 600k net larger. Which amounted to 11% Net difference. Had we finished our pump without being waved (Before you decided to kill our small guy for fun) for 6 land hits and 7 massacres(3 on each elf and 1 on an Orc)

Who are you from? Strippers or Sullied?

Our acres would have changed, -400,-500 max. The big fat viscount Orc with 26k modded def on 1900 acres (ish) And a grand total of 40k mod off, took a massacre(Silly as his WPA/TPA was around a .5). You show back up, almost 2 days later(you did give us time) And out of no where, kill a guy.

We did learns as well if you're strippers. If you're Sullied, we more or less went directly into killing.

Our paper was unavailable maby. Or maby, you didn't really care that much. Your assumption took one of our provs out. Fast to. Was an impressive display of action. Not surprising with an average online time for each prov being in the 15 hour range. But still completely judgmentally wrong.

You guys were intentionally losing acres, and asking others to help you continue to lose acres. We were within 5% of your land size and would have been willing to give you time to train up, but instead you dropped and then said we were too big. We don't like having our time wasted, we don't like land dropping.

to go into a war with your attackers land spread from 500 acres to 3,000 acres is just stupid and their isn't a single kingdom that would deny you are better off when all you're provs are similar in land/nw (banks excluded)....in war some provs get chained and others don't..it would take weeks to get all the players up to the size of your biggest prov...meaning you would not be able to war nearly as many times in the short 12 week age...

You are wrong and bad. Again: we did this 6 times immediately one after the other last age.

every one knows this.... so after war the smaller provs grow a bit and the larger ones shrink a bit..and some sort of middle ground is reached....from the post of the couple razes i seen that is exactly what happenned... during this process the kingdom normally gains more land than it losses

It happens as a natural process if it happens. It doesn't always happen if kds train up right, and it isn't something that the kingdom should be doing (intentionally dropping land)

id understand the arguement if every prov in the kingdom got razed but thats not the case here so all of this talk is just nonsense...

Why? All we're talking about a difference of degrees. What's acceptable and what's not? 10% landdrop for an entire kd? 50%? 5%? 2?% It's the same thing and serves the same function.

If you don't want land, don't take it. Don't use artificial methods to eliminate risk and get rid of it.

and is being used as an excuse by ED to raze provs and act like their not being douches

Nope. That's also not why we razed Strippers.

la la la, we knocked down a big orc before our war with LIARS. After war 5, we genuinely were growing to fight you. We knew you would know who we are by now. We even let you take all that gc while in post war cf. But then we ask for a few more days for personal reasons and ED cannot meet in the middle.

You didn't ask for a few more days for personal reasons. You asked for 4 days. You could have warred us and been done by Easter, if Easter was your concern.

Yeah "if u cant get ready in 4 days, ur doing something wrong" bla bla bla, we have had 5 back to back wars, we know what we are doing, the 4 days was not for pumping as I've explained in an earlier message.

If you can't be ready in 4 days, you're doing something wrong.

ED sits at 39k acres for 2 weeks and we just finally get to 38k after a war win. But yeah, we are even strength and "should have been ready", or rather "should man-up"

We weren't at 39k for 2 weeks, and we didn't sit still for that time, we were growing -- not incredibly fast, but growing none the less.

[ArcDurath]

Bishop, if you were 100% in favor of people who embrace "ethical gameplay", then you would just change the gains mod into EOWCF to -90%. This would kill of razing into a war as well.

[Zauper]

Bishop, if you were 100% in favor of people who embrace "ethical gameplay", then you would just change the gains mod into EOWCF to -90%. This would kill of razing into a war as well.

Raze has 15 acres min gain.

[flutterby]

Bishop, if you were 100% in favor of people who embrace "ethical gameplay", then you would just change the gains mod into EOWCF to -90%. This would kill of razing into a war as well.

What is ethical game play? There are many different definitions, you can't pin it down to just one. If you went by my version, there wouldn't be CF's at the top that lasted more than a week at a time and a week in between being able to reset them.

[JONCY]

la la la, we knocked down a big orc before our war with LIARS. After war 5, we genuinely were growing to fight you. We knew you would know who we are by now. We even let you take all that gc while in post war cf. But then we ask for a few more days for personal reasons and ED cannot meet in the middle.

Yeah "if u cant get ready in 4 days, ur doing something wrong" bla bla bla, we have had 5 back to back wars, we know what we are doing, the 4 days was not for pumping as I've explained in an earlier message.

ED sits at 39k acres for 2 weeks and we just finally get to 38k after a war win. But yeah, we are even strength and "should have been ready", or rather "should man-up"

Its okay, I don't blame you, most ghetto's DON't know what they are doing most of the time either.

But like I said, you guys are a special case, any other kd we would have been more lenient with diplo, but you guys are pretty sly and twist things around pretty easily.

We keep tabs on you guys and we know accepting any deal with you guys would be worst thing to do. Not every kd has to agree to CF just so you can get ready, so don't blame us if we didn't want to meet halfway.

Ps: Thanks for the gc, that was nice of you :)

[GotCha]

Strippers....please shut these kids up....

[Smitty87]

Not gonna happen Strippers should exit whilst they still have some honor before that is farmed too

[Ezzerland]

@Ezzerland: size can be the same at the begining and after a war, call it a reset. The dif would be made in war, when everything can vary, according to the skill of the player.

Again you show your lack of understanding. Starting a war off on equal footing does not equate to being an equal kingdom. As a result, if the better kingdom is reset, the better kingdom is forced to continue fighting against weaker kingdoms instead of moving up in the charts and getting better competition. You don't understand this, perhaps because you're not interested in competing. You think the game should revolve around your fun. You, as an individual. The best way for you to get your fun is to constantly be winning wars, not sharing in a competitive experience.

Bishop, if you were 100% in favor of people who embrace "ethical gameplay", then you would just change the gains mod into EOWCF to -90%. This would kill of razing into a war as well.

Ethical and abusive are two separate lines. One is drawn by the community and embraced by the game. One is drawn by the game and embraced by the community.
Since you don't understand that line, let me try and explain that creating room for abuse in-game is bad. -75% exists at that number for a reason. To discourage abuse AND to discourage unethical behavior.

[Forensick]

no, all their honour belong to us

[Ezzerland]

This is a war game, it's a game which allows you to take things from other people, if you can't handle this concept without dragging in idiotic concepts like bullying then it's probably best you don't play this game.

I think you need to rethink this comment. There have been many stupid posts in this thread to justify unethical behavior, but that does not mean bullying is not relevant, nor should you be suggesting people quit the game.

Edit - After discussing with Zaup, we disagree on what exactly you meant. Are you saying that bullying doesn't exist and anyone who thinks otherwise should quit? Or are you saying that bullying did not happen in this case and if you think being hit is bullying you should quit?