AMA vs sanct round 2

[PhoenixScorpion]

The anti-abs crowd is just getting outright pathetic in their attempts to power-play and stir up trouble. If they keep it up they will be the next series of KD's and alliance to disband and be lost in the Utopian History trash-bin...

Notices, n00b Sh*t. Which leads to exactly the types of running that AMA clearly did. To claim otherwise is BS. Elit tried to use a Hostile cover and it blew up in his face, end of story.

[DonJuan]

The anti-abs crowd is just getting outright pathetic in their attempts to power-play and stir up trouble. If they keep it up they will be the next series of KD's and alliance to disband and be lost in the Utopian History trash-bin...

Notices, n00b Sh*t. Which leads to exactly the types of running that AMA clearly did. To claim otherwise is BS. Elit tried to use a Hostile cover and it blew up in his face, end of story.

the only simplest explanation in this whole thread I can understand without reading 10 pages of jibba jabba

[Elit]

the only simplest explanation in this whole thread I can understand without reading 10 pages of jibba jabba

Yes its clear, say: if you don't like what did abs shut up or you will disband :)

[Crazy Pete]

So what's stats at for Havoc vs AMA? I got no stealth or i'd peek at Havoc guy paper :P

[Elit]

So what's stats at for Havoc vs AMA? I got no stealth or i'd peek at Havoc guy paper :P

Both kds have dragon, trade ops/hits. We change stance to fort so they got more land from it. Will post formates news later.

[flogger]

I'm trying to figure out why the Pew Pew - MA relationship is equated to the Havoc- Sanc relationship. didn't pew pew refuse to CF MA for like 6 weeks this age? Pew Pew refused to CF us too after cats. How is then pew pew refusing to CF sanc some sort of coordination? Sanc was in the closest kingdom in their range and they wanted to fight them. As far as I can tell, pew pew has wanted to fight everyone on the server, and has generally picked or wanted to go for whoever was closest.


Also, I do find it somewhat funny that ASF has forgotten last age already. Refusing to CF in the top after a war win when significantly larger is a bad thing Elit is doing? Newsflash, Rage is the only kingdom in the top who has done it before Elit and has done it for a few ages now. You refused to ceasefire last age because we were the easiest source of acres in the top and your were in a dominant position. You also asked for a ridiculous amount of acres, like Elit did after the first war to ceasefire.

Why not just say "we didn't like the idea of the acres MA would get from sanc and we have the cows" Its refreshing to just say "we're big and will do as we please" Honesty can be a relief.

[KuhaN]

Notices, n00b Sh*t. Which leads to exactly the types of running that AMA clearly did. To claim otherwise is BS. Elit tried to use a Hostile cover and it blew up in his face, end of story.

I don't think it blew up in his face at all. I think he was expecting it.

[MrCurious]

Ezzerland,

You're obviously very biased in this situation and it's a pretty poor attempt at hiding it to try and claim that a very biased post is unbiased. Here are a few corrections of some of the inaccuracies and flaws and biases out of the numerous corrections that could be made.



Why act like this is some ridiculous made up claim? You could instead state this as, "Fort did not provide the protection from op success that was advertised in the previous changes and in the guide and Sanc did not know about this bug while Elit did. Sanctuary relied on Fort for success protection and intended to train up thieves later and got all their gc stocks robbed since Elit was aware of this bug and planned to rob through the double fortified. Sanc then pointed out the bug to Bishop and suggested it be fixed. It was decided that it would be easier to change the guide than recode the game mid age and so the guide was changed."




First, you mention things out of order and "forget" to mention the actions of Elit. You left out the part about Elit personally target sharing Havocs 0 thief banks in the forum while throwing around his wrong accusations leading to Havoc's banks getting heavily robbed from those reading these popular threads (many of those paying close interest happen to be anti-abs.) Yes, after Elit repeatedly making false accusations publicly about Sanc, and MA requesting Havoc drop cf to prove that it was in place, one Sanc player did rob one Havoc player. The sanc player got about 25M gold and the Havoc player lost about 28M. Havoc was upset about this as were others in Sanc and Abs when they heard about this and this players robbing was made public by Havoc nearly immediately. The robbing wouldn't have happened without the repeated false accusations from Elit causing the cf drop as proof combined with the Sanc player being upset about the false accusations and making a stupid move in response that was widely condemned within his own kingdom, Havoc, and Absalom as a whole.

That robbing was minor in comparison to the success Elit had through fortified and also relatively insignificant when you consider other unmentioned things like lone players like "Elf" and "Meow" that focused ops on Sanc leading up to the hostile and during it. Meow alone robbed more from Sanc than the sanc player took from Havoc.





This seems to depend on your perspective. What is actual diplomacy? Some might consider asking for a cf and getting told, or only for 30k+ free acres, or flatly no, not without war as diplomacy attempts that were shot down. You apparently do not consider refused diplomacy attempts as actual diplomacy, but it's still misleading to act like there was nothing.




More biased slants here. Sanc was willing to cf and Elit was aware of this. Havoc was not willing to cf. You also forget to mention that PewPew was also not willing to cf sanc. Sanc tried to cf them directly and it was also asked of Elit to broker this cf as part of a deal but he refused. And yes, it is arguable both ways if Elit would have waved sanc had Sanc not robbed them. Certainly it was a good excuse to wave them either way. However, as a monarch in a situation like Elits, would it not be obvious that the smart move would be to CF sanc after the war? The only smart game reason not to in that situation is if you want to wave hem as a way to buy time and try and force a notice reset with havoc. Elit initially claimed that his deal with Havoc entitled him to one although he later realized he was mistaken. He managed to pull off an impressive wave on Sanc nearly immediately after being robbed. There was no need to think about it or prepare. I suggest that the reason he didn't cf sanc and didn't need to think twice about waving them after being noticed by Havoc is pretty obviously because that was his plan all along. Regardless, yes, sanc robbing them (due to expecting Elit planned to wave them) was a good excuse and looks nice posting over and over in the forums.




You could also say this as, "After Elit waving a kingdom 60% their size as a means to escape the one 90% of their size that noticed them, Sanc tried to CF them. Elit refused and said he'd stay hostile with them until the age ends or the meters max and they get war or until Sanc gives them 30k acres and havoc gives them a 1 week cf deal. Despite PewPew again reiterating that they wanted to vulture sanc as soon as the hostile was done and wouldn't cf either, Sanc was willing to straight CF Elit but Elit refused. Sanc offered ingame cf anyway and Havoc waved after no hits were exchanged for 12h with Sanc sitting in fort." One must question where the line is drawn on such notice/fight dodging. If there is a kingdom your size that you don't want to fight, what is the proper way to avoid them? Is waving a kingdom 60% of your size and saying you'll never cf them unless you get a longer cf with the kingdom you're afraid of a good way? Is waving the smallest ghetto on the server and again saying you'll never cf them even as they cower in fort and offer ingame cf a good way to avoid another hostile? Where is the line? I've always just fought the kingdom that was after me and not tried to run through waving another kingdom. Others play differently but where is the line on "acceptable hostile dodging" vs "unacceptable hostile dodging?"






Sanc was offering cf to Elit and trying to end the fight and sitting in fortified with no hits for 12h. Elit therefore had no need to fear being "doubled" since he could cf sanc at any time. He did have his "out of war range hostile" interupted though by havoc and he did get vultured. But he was never under threat of being "doubled" unless he choose himself to be since he could cf sanc at any time. Sanc on the other hadn could not get a cf with either elit or with pew pew despite trying with both. They were at real risk of being doubled since they couldn't get a cf with either. They were not doubled though since Elit chose to fight havoc when they waved and Sanc has not complaiend abotu being doubled and my comment were only made to point out how sanc was in the same situation as elit all along. Also don't forget, it was Elit that waved sanc after the notices were given creating that hostile and then refusing to end it and stating he'd never cf so havoc could never fight him.




Again, it was pretty clear that AMA planned to wave Sanc all along if they got notice from Havoc and sanc felt it better to take some gc from a kd running 0 thief cows (that earlier target shared other 0 thief cows). I guess they figured if Elit was going to wave them to dodge Havoc, it's better to take the money before they use it all. I'm not saying this was smart of Sanc as it made it easy for elit to give a reason for waving them after a few provinces stole some gc, but if you're going to get waved, and the kingdom about to wave you has gc sitting around, do you wait for them to use it and wave, or just rob it first?




There wasn't any. The shock and horror came from Elit when he was mad that he couldn't use waving Sanc to secure a 1 week cf extension with Havoc. I was jsut responding to that "shock and horror".




Sanc made it known to elit many times that they were interested in cf's. Every time Elit came back with what Sanc considered were ridiculous demands like giving up 30k free acres and also getting elit new deals with other kingdoms.



I agree there are two sides and I'm not trying to say my side is "right", but I also don't think havoc is any more "wrong" than pew pew and I think Elit played poorly trying to dodge havoc. Yes havoc was "vulturing" Elit after their war, but Elit also vultured Rage after our Beastblood war earlier this age so again, I don't think either is more wrong there, it's just Utopia. I am just providing obvious biased rebuttals to your obviously biased statements here, but I do think that people like yourself tend to be blinded by the tag and have double standards of what is ok for others to do to a kingdom in Absalom vs what a kingdom in Absalom is allowed to do to another.

ASF, the targetsharing excuse is lame at best. I can name multiple kds who have been robbing 0 thief banks from the t5 all age. We all know the banks run without thieves, and we all rob big amounts of GC when stealth permits it. So stop using that as a excuse for Havocs bank to get robbed. He was getting robbed heavily before the "target sharing" - This is amusing... Since sanc put up their 1st bank (dunno if i can name his name w/o getting into trouble, even though its obvious who im referring to) we have been robbing GC as he has run no thieves whatsoever. Havoc looks for a easy opening to fight a weaker AMA, its simple. This is abusing your alliance, and it should have consequences.

[Elit]

I'm trying to figure out why the Pew Pew - MA relationship is equated to the Havoc- Sanc relationship. didn't pew pew refuse to CF MA for like 6 weeks this age? Pew Pew refused to CF us too after cats. How is then pew pew refusing to CF sanc some sort of coordination? Sanc was in the closest kingdom in their range and they wanted to fight them. As far as I can tell, pew pew has wanted to fight everyone on the server, and has generally picked or wanted to go for whoever was closest.


Also, I do find it somewhat funny that ASF has forgotten last age already. Refusing to CF in the top after a war win when significantly larger is a bad thing Elit is doing? Newsflash, Rage is the only kingdom in the top who has done it before Elit and has done it for a few ages now. You refused to ceasefire last age because we were the easiest source of acres in the top and your were in a dominant position. You also asked for a ridiculous amount of acres, like Elit did after the first war to ceasefire.

Why not just say "we didn't like the idea of the acres MA would get from sanc and we have the cows" Its refreshing to just say "we're big and will do as we please" Honesty can be a relief.

1. Pew Pew refused to CF us last age and i asked them few times. Same this age. Only reason we have CF them now is Proteus pro diplo with them lead to pact deal all abs+hoh+us with pew pew.
2. We never was asked from Sanctuary for CF after war was over so we cant refuse it. I don't have habit to war/wave same kd after we had clean war win. Its was Sanctuary choice to keep it up and start actions vs us right after post war. All ASF complain about size is stupid. If Sanctuary think they are not in position to war us why they started it. There never was dodge Havoc. Havoc chances against us if we had our fair ("vultire" notice based to abs) 1vs1 hostile/war was sure less from ours. Sanctuary have way better war setup and was not less prepare for his war vs us from Havoc. Main difference now is Sanctuary started all hostile to can prevent us train for 48h and after it Havoc double hostile us.

After double hostile based to both kds provinces stats our chances are almost zero because we was massive untrained and loss much army from trade hits.
ABS play 1vs1 only when its favor them but if they cant win 1vs1 they start team play.

[MrCurious]

The anti-abs crowd is just getting outright pathetic in their attempts to power-play and stir up trouble. If they keep it up they will be the next series of KD's and alliance to disband and be lost in the Utopian History trash-bin...

Notices, n00b Sh*t. Which leads to exactly the types of running that AMA clearly did. To claim otherwise is BS. Elit tried to use a Hostile cover and it blew up in his face, end of story.

U mad bro? I think you are. Is it hard for you to understand, that as you have your pro-abs opinions, others might have pro-aabs opinions? you mad cuz they dont agree with you? I think you are. Sanc robbing AMA after Havoc notices is just the shade of grey we've seen from Abs before, so why is it weird that ppl form up their own opinions based on the past happenings and the present situation ? Havoc accepted the "cant notice if we are hostile" CF clause themselves, and now they break it. The notice should have been retracted (spelling?) and AMA should have been given the time to finish the hostile with Sanc. C'mon, Sanc robs, FGs and FBs <-- how is that not econ ****ing AMA before their fight with Havoc? You just make it look like they need all the help they can get, which is sad. Even if they pull out a win over AMA, which im not so sure about, then they wont get any credit whatsoever.

[csarmi]

lol at ASF. Impressive. *applauds*
You should be in local politics of some lower socio-economic, under-educated town where people might actually buy your BS.

Ezzerland's post was a pretty objective summary of events.

Abs realised their crap human setup is crap. And there was no way any of them were gonna crown in 1v1 fights vs AMA, hence cheap play

Yea well I'm not sure how they are supposed to fight that undead/halfer combo.

[AquaSeaFoam]

I'm trying to figure out why the Pew Pew - MA relationship is equated to the Havoc- Sanc relationship. didn't pew pew refuse to CF MA for like 6 weeks this age? Pew Pew refused to CF us too after cats. How is then pew pew refusing to CF sanc some sort of coordination? Sanc was in the closest kingdom in their range and they wanted to fight them. As far as I can tell, pew pew has wanted to fight everyone on the server, and has generally picked or wanted to go for whoever was closest.

Are you trying to say that the closeness of the relationship determines if it's ok to vulture or what exactly? I just know I was told that pewpew came to Abs when they were fat and weak after a war and said that if any Abs hit them they'd farm out to Elit and they ended up getting a cf deal of their choosing with Abs, Elit, and HoH. I find it pretty much against the spirit of the "we'll be nice and not vulture you" to see them now vulture Sanc, but I guess that's how they roll.

Also, I do find it somewhat funny that ASF has forgotten last age already. Refusing to CF in the top after a war win when significantly larger is a bad thing Elit is doing? Newsflash, Rage is the only kingdom in the top who has done it before Elit and has done it for a few ages now. You refused to ceasefire last age because we were the easiest source of acres in the top and your were in a dominant position. You also asked for a ridiculous amount of acres, like Elit did after the first war to ceasefire.

Naw, you're confusing two situations here. Our situation was where you were our only threat and we didn't worry about being vultured and thus it meant that it was best for us to not let you, our only threat, pump when you had a bunch of sages and human econ. In this situation, Elit had other threats (one of whom had already told him they would notice as soon as post war was up and indeed did notice as soon as it was up.) That's why in Elit's situation it would be smart to cf your other threats to avoid possible vultures or other troubles like gc robbing. Certainly you understand this and are just trolling. I'm not saying people need to always cf, just that for Elit, it was the obvious move -- UNLESS THE PLAN ALL ALONG WAS TO WAVE SANC TO TRY AND FORCE A CF EXTENSION WITH HAVOC.

As for acres and ridiculous demands, I think that any demands we made were basically just feeding you back the demands you made to us the age before when you had the upper hand.

[Malogar]

So what's stats at for Havoc vs AMA? I got no stealth or i'd peek at Havoc guy paper :P

Judging by the charts Havoc is now number one. So I guess they farm AMA

[Elldallan]

This is false. AMA claims they cannot tell which came first because they happened on the same hour. Since Havoc warned AMA that they were going to notice, I posted it in the relevant order.

I trust dorje's word because he has a history of deserved respect. The event would not even be known if not for the admission from abs, so any non-abs can frankly piss off about the minor detail, as they would not have the integrity to admit the same. In both cases, trust is not relevant. The intra-alliance stealing was admitted, but only happened after the CF was broken upon request. The amount also does not matter. What does matter is that it affected this situation, and is factually presented by both sides.

I will not post based on assumptions. In every case you have the potential to be wrong. Therefore, it is not a fact. I am interested only in clarifying facts. Not some garbage propaganda. If I will stand up publicly to try and present a non-biased view knowing I have far more friends in abs than outside abs, what on earth makes you think I'd spread your faulted opinion?

Sorry if I was unclear, my only comment about your post was the ones about MA having been robbed before notice and dorje being the thief. The rest where my own opinion.

Again my own opinion according to facts posted in this thread, Abs did not admit it until Elit posted the claim that sanct had stolen from Havoc, they probably knew Elit had evidence(if he didn't why would he make such a claim?) to back that claim up and hence there was no way they could hide it so that admission does not gain em any good guy points in my opinion only despise for having done it.

[Lestat]

Elit is a shining light in an age of darkness.