AMA vs sanct round 2

[Crazy Pete]

Well I wouldn't get too cocky and start betting just quite yet. Think of it this way, what exactly does AMA have to loose if they aren't going to win the age? # 2 might as well be #80. What makes you think AMA won't rob Havoc of a crown just like Beast Blood did to Rage continually warring??? Nothing more dangerous then when a kd is backed up to a wall with nothing to loose. If anything I would say Havoc crowning is now an impossibility. Either AMA will win their war or they will make live unpleasant for Havoc.

Reason then would say that Rage and HoH have the best chance to crown - whichever of the 2 that get their hands on Pew Pew first, assuming they get into range within 10% land size. Rage is crazy to think hoH is gonna take a back seat and roll out the red carpet for them and not even consider Pew Pew as food. 30k acres spread on us and rage is @ 10% is a 3k acre difference....piss all.

lots of time left in the age don't anyone count thier cookies just yet :D

[Lestat]

Thanks for remind. Umbrella was ordered for next age ;)

This is a storm that will have your back, not soak it.

[Soul_Hunter]

Why not describe the wrongs using specific descriptions rather than catch phases? Clearly you want the word hostile, which it was, but I'll instead paste another ingame message that is descriptive of their relation at the time:

April 2 of YR8 Sanctuary of Absalom () has proposed a formal ceasefire with our kingdom.

Cause i was making a point. Havoc hit into a hostile, making it double :). As for the example you gave, if offering cf was equal to end of hostile then everyone should be doing full waves + offering cf after that :). And if AMA refusing this cf offer is a proof of something, it is a proof that the hostile was ongoing.

So we came to an agreement that there was a double hostile. I don't think we have anything else to discuss :)

[Realest]

This is what I keep asking him. Why oh why didn't he just cf Sanc and fight havoc 1v1 when he knew havoc was going to notice him. The answer seems to be that the pressure got to him and he didn't have your guidance to lead him to the crown. I'm sure he was under a lot of stress. What if havoc beat him 1v1? I guess in his mind, he thought the road to the crown was to not cf Sanc during post war and use that as an excuse to try and deny Havoc's right to notice him so he could use his pool and get out of range of havoc having any chance against them.

But you're right, the keys and the road to the crown was right in front of him. All he needed to do was cf Sanc and beat Havoc in a war and the crown was his. But people crack under pressure and make dumb decisions all the time. If only he had your hand on the wheel.

thanks for the high praise but Elit does fine on his own ;). while I would agree that "ideally" he should have CFd sanc, the question is why should he need to if you make it sound like Havoc coming was such an inevitability? I don't think Sanc can play the ignorant card if you make it sound like AMA vs Havoc was such a lock. Also, I do recall that abs have stated before just because a war is over, doesn't mean the conflict is - there exist the option to rewave for unfinished business, which is what exactly happened here.

Like you said, no one sides with elit if sanc didn't rob and elit waves to "dodge". However, the fact is dorje did and then goodz went in. But I can understand dorje's concern, goodz is not very good and could use all the help he can get.

[DHaran]

This is what I keep asking him. Why oh why didn't he just cf Sanc and fight havoc 1v1 when he knew havoc was going to notice him. The answer seems to be that the pressure got to him and he didn't have your guidance to lead him to the crown. I'm sure he was under a lot of stress. What if havoc beat him 1v1? I guess in his mind, he thought the road to the crown was to not cf Sanc during post war and use that as an excuse to try and deny Havoc's right to notice him so he could use his pool and get out of range of havoc having any chance against them.

But you're right, the keys and the road to the crown was right in front of him. All he needed to do was cf Sanc and beat Havoc in a war and the crown was his. But people crack under pressure and make dumb decisions all the time. If only he had your hand on the wheel.

And all of that has exactly what to do with doubling AMA? Oh nothing? Ok, carry on with your babbling.

Here's a partial list of "don't" guidelines I try and play by off the top of my head that should not be taken as hard rules to look for loopholes to abuse:


1) Don't treat a kingdom in a way that you wouldn't consider fair if they did it to you.

2) Don't team up and coordinate to take down stronger enemies that you couldn't beat on your own or that might be too costly to fight on your own.

3) Don't interfere in fights that shouldn't be interfered in. Sequence of events matters and so do the options and choices made by the potential target. The legitimacy of the fight also matters. This is open to interpretation, but see rule 1).

4) Don't break deals that you make.

5) Don't do stupid things to put yourself in a bad position by relying on these or any other player based rules for protection. Play smart and assume others won't follow these "rules."

This is pure gold. If these are the guidelines you think you're playing by, you should try harder.

Absalom LOVES to take credit for the "fair" level of play the game enjoys now, but shuns that same type of play the moment they make themselves look bad violating their own code of conduct. Your #1 rule is good one, treat others as you'd like to be treated is true in all aspects of life. So now we know Abs is ok with being double hostiled in the future without cause. Noted.

[Elldallan]

Warning! Long post ahead.

There is a lot more too the situation than you apparently decided people need to know. I think people should know everything about the situation that they can learn before making up their mind. Also, once again, instead of being blinded by terminology, consider what the actual "unfair" things that were done without relying on catch phrases. Do you disagree with what I said were the unfair things?

Do you think it was also unfair to havoc for Elit to try and dodge their notice when they told him in advance to plan for their notice once he was out of post war? They put a lot of time and effort into preparing for the fight between the #1 and #2 kingdoms but instead they were going to be left stuck never being able to fight Elit.

As for the robbing, I think that a few reasonable people like Dharan and Palem very well might have viewed Elit in the wrong had sanc not robbed any gc. I don't think it'd have made any real difference at all to the majority of the posters here though. The plan was the same either way and it all would have unfolded exactly the same and 95% of everyone posting here would still have the same opinion. As I've said before, it's the norm for Absalom kingdoms to be robbed while trying to get ready for a war. Does this mean by your logic that Absalom kingdoms never need to fight a war they don't want since they can always avoid it by waving whoever robs their gc? Again, making hard rules rarely works and only opens things up for abuse. Do you actually disagree with the general concepts of what i said in the previous posts or do you just feel the need to repeatedly say "double hostile, all that matters!"?

Yes I agree that had sanct not interfered with MA and Elit had still waved then yes MA would be in the wrong and then you could reasonably accuse MA of trying to avoid Havoc.
But as to your points:
1; It is not even remotely a grey area like you are trying to claim it is. Yes Elit was given notice which was legit but Sanct decided to intrfere in that conflict to benefit Havoc and that is unfair, a clear 2v1 situation.
That Sanct was not in normal war range is not MA's problem, sanct decide to go pick a fight with MA a second time, the hostile is still an active one regardless of whether sanct was in war range or not, Sanct should not have gone and picked a fight with MA if they were not ready to fight one.
So no, your 1 is not even slightly grey, in my opinion Havoc interfered in an active conflict despit a valid notice having been given.

2; Yes it's a clear 2v1 situation, Sanct interfered with MA's preparation for Havoc making this a 2v1 unless notice was reset and MA given time to prepare again(but yes 1 week and 30k acres is an obvious troll just as only resetting the 48h and no acres is) what Sanct and Havoc did was unfair to MA.

3; You are wrong, it is a clear 2v1 situation, the hostile was not over just because attacks stopped for 12h(they only stopped because both sanct and MA wanted to be ready for what pewpew/Havoc would do, if there had been no pew pew notice Sanct would not have stopped and sanct was still doing op's during this time according to MA and there was still dragons traded. Just like Elits demand for a full week and 30k acres and 100M is an obvious troll so is Sancts "attempt" to arrange a CF, any cf deal at this time would have to include at least 72h or so for MA to prepare(starting after the point where the 100M have been returned to MA) unless MA is obviously trying to stall and gain more time), 100M gc(the amount that was stolen according to MA) plus some acres(tho not 30k obviously) anything less is obviously not a sincere offer. Anyway a hostile does not cease to be active until either it is resolved through diplomacy or the meter decays below unfriendly(removing ability to execute ops/spells)

Yes I think it would have been unfair to Havoc if Elit had decided to wave Sanct out of his own accord and claim hostile relations(and thus trying to avoid notice from Havoc), then he would have put himself squarely in that situation himself, this is however not what happened so there is no reason to accuse Elit of trying to avoid Havoc
I think the key point with the robbing is that the perpetrator was Sanct, had it been any random nub then the situation would have been different but since it was Sanct which is allied with Havoc it is a clear attempt to try and 2v1 MA(the 2v1 started the second Sanct started stealing unless Havoc would have decided to back off until MA could have regained the lost resources and prepare for Havoc so even a CF deal between MA and Sanct would not have absolved Abs of the 2v1 if Havoc had waved immediately after.
So no unless the perpetrator is obviously allied(and yes I would consider pewpew to be allied with MA in this instance even if there is no formal tag or official recognition) with the notice giver then I would say that the stealing would not give any protection from the notice, it would then just be another stupid mistake to run 0 thieves(which it arguably still is)

I think what lies at the heart of the matter is the simple fact that Havoc & Sanct are allies, this is the one key fact which colors every other part of the situation. Had they not been the situation would have been very different and it would have been less clear cut that MA was abused unfairly.

But I don't agree that Elit was in full control of the situation, Abs was for the following reasons
1: Sanct could have chosen to not interfere.
2: Havoc could have chosen not to wave once Sanct had forged ahead and initiated a new fight with MA 3: either Havoc or Sanct could have offered MA a reasonable cf agreement that included resetting the notice so MA would have had reasonable time to prepare for sanct(this deal could have included a clause that MA would not be allowed to explore more than a certain amount of acres(in order to use this extended duration to explore 10k acres and avoid Havoc entirely).

1: Ma could have chosen not to act on Sancts acts of hostility(which is obviously different from the game definition of hostile but I doubt any Abs kd would accept MA or pewpew to rob them for 100M just prior to a conflict and not act on it)
2: MA could have sent a reasonable demand for cf terms to sanct but unless Abs was willing to reasonably discuss terms with MA this would not bring the conflict to an end.

So in all alternatives but the one choosing not to act at all the power to end the conflict fairly for all involved lies with Abs, not MA.

[DM_Benjamin]

So what you are saying is that Elit planned that Sanc would steal his goldcoins so he would have a "reason" to wave sanctuary so they could escape from getting waved by Havoc?

So, being open to a CF for you is stealing 100~ mil gc from a kingdom?

Stop brownnosing please :(

Not brown nosing hombre, just my point of view and I am far from involved with either kds

[DM_Benjamin]

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

Everyone needs to just shut the **** and war.

Every utonerd here needs to lay off the Red Bull, roll a blunt and calm the **** down.

Your welcome.

[Syntico]

Why is the 2v1 still an issue here? It is clear cut to the outside eye, no matter how many libraries ASF try to fill. Elit will take it up the bum with grace, but knowing Elit he will return stronger if not before the end of this age, then in the future ages.

A storm is coming...

Everyone needs to just shut the **** and war.

If everyone could war 1v1, then there wouldn't be all this crying. ;)

[KuhaN]

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

Everyone needs to just shut the **** and war.

Every utonerd here needs to lay off the Red Bull, roll a blunt and calm the **** down.

Your welcome.

I dont do redbull, it has sugar in it. My impeccable body hasn't tasted sugar, or artifical sugar, in months now.

sn0re.

[goodz]

I dont do redbull, it has sugar in it. My impeccable body hasn't tasted sugar, or artifical sugar, in months now.

sn0re.

Go Paleo.

Get a cooling glove.

You'll be sexier in weeks.

[AquaSeaFoam]

So now we know Abs is ok with being double hostiled in the future without cause. Noted.

I think Absalom kingdoms would indeed expect to get doubled in a situation like this. If an Absalom kingdom was #1, got noticed by #2, then had #5 (who was out of war range) start robbing them, I think that the Absalom kingdom would go to the #5 kingdom and ask for a cf immediately before any robbing damage was too bad. i'd hope that the Absalom kingdom would ahve actually been smart enough to ask for a cf with that kingdom *before* the robbing could have started whent hey new the notice with the #2 kingdom was coming. We'd expect to get doubled if we instead just waved an out of war range kingdom over a couple provinces robbing one hour after getting notice for a big fight with no attempt to cf. If that kingdom refused to cf when tried, then I think that'd change things since you'd lose your option to avoid the double then.

Part of playing smart is trying to avoid intentionally putting yourself in position to get doubled. As i've stated, Rage has had many opportunities to do similar to Elit to try and avoid notices/waves but I've always been against it. And as you know, yes Rage has gotten doubled several times in somewhat recent ages and never was it from us trying to dodge a hostile. They were basically just pure blatent doubles. Absalom never acted on any of them although that is not a promise that they wouldn't in the future.

You're one of the few posters here who actually forms an opinion on the situation based on how you view the facts rather than just on who is involved. I'm not saying this was "fair", it wasn't. I'm just saying that by Elit trying to dodge the hostile the situation automatically either was not going to end up fair for him or not fair for Havoc. This time it ended up unfair for him (and for Sanc.) Elit could have easily avoided this situation had he wanted to just prepare for Havoc instead of try and deny the notice.

[Realest]

Elit could have easily avoided this situation had he wanted to just prepare for Havoc instead of try and deny the notice.

agree but knowing that this notice was inevitable and that havoc and sanc are allies, should sanc had just stayed out, in your opinion?

[fookyih]

I think Absalom kingdoms would indeed expect to get doubled in a situation like this. If an Absalom kingdom was #1, got noticed by #2, then had #5 (who was out of war range) start robbing them, I think that the Absalom kingdom would go to the #5 kingdom and ask for a cf immediately before any robbing damage was too bad. i'd hope that the Absalom kingdom would ahve actually been smart enough to ask for a cf with that kingdom *before* the robbing could have started whent hey new the notice with the #2 kingdom was coming.

Both kd are silly. But Sanc is more silly to start robbing the 1st kd when they have a notice from PewPew themselves.

[AquaSeaFoam]

agree but knowing that this notice was inevitable and that havoc and sanc are allies, should sanc had just stayed out, in your opinion?

Yes. However sanc also expected and nearly certainly correctly, that Elit was going to wave them regardless to dodge Havoc. Sanc therefore figured it was better to rob the gc on the 0 thief cow of the kingdom that was probably gong to wave them before havoc's notice was up. I agree they didn't think it through considering all the political aspects. But I guess they hoped that by robing a bit when their cow came out unprepared, Elit would cf them instead of prepare and wave them in a day or so. Looks like Elit was faster on the wave than they expected and nearly full waved them within minutes of the robbing and havoc's notice.