Debauchery...

[THX1912]

More super tips.

What, you'd have me have them attack out of war? Or wait until the war is over? I said it before, we don't like the wait, and with the troop loss and the gains penalty, hitting out isn't really an option.

[Andr3w]

You admit it's not an untouchable period, but go on to say most people respect it... If you admit it's not made to be an untouchable period, then what is there to respect?

Well it IS not an untouchable period since the developer made it that way obviously..its more of an unspoken rule that most people seems to respect? With that said, well everyone has their own personal opinion and can choose what they do knowing what possible results they may get.

Well not like everyone gonna jump on you guys right away lol..And counting the facts they may be busy with their own hostilities/war/etc or the fact your KD is in Fort, or at least when I last saw it..Not like theres a time limit for the raze kill to be only open for 1-2 days :p they can choose to do it during Debau next active war, eowcf or few days eoa or whatever they see fit..since active wars are made possible to hit/op in as well by developers, so I guess that falls under your category of not-untouchable..

[THX1912]

Seems you think I'm in Debauchery. Interesting.

By untouchable, I did not mean the game mechanism didn't make it possible, such as prot or vac mode. More that it was unfair to interfere at that moment (such as during an active war, when it can affect the war outcome). Anyway, it's past midnight and I work tomorrow. I guess we'll see the news tomorrow!

[Alazne]

Andr3w has understood well that the wrong target could be something as simple as "a kingdom that has the time".

I personally dislike more another kingdom (other than Debauchery) that has also stolen from us in this eowcf. Maybe it is yours, THX1912?

[Bishop]

Seems you think I'm in Debauchery. Interesting.

By untouchable, I did not mean the game mechanism didn't make it possible, such as prot or vac mode. More that it was unfair to interfere at that moment (such as during an active war, when it can affect the war outcome). Anyway, it's past midnight and I work tomorrow. I guess we'll see the news tomorrow!

You are misunderstanding this. You are free to hit/op into anyone's war at any time, the game allows it. Similarly, everyone is free to hit/op you when they feel like it. Your mistake is in thinking that hitting/opping will have no consequences further down the line because at the time of your ops/hits the person is not in a position to retaliate.

Personally I am looking forward to killing provinces that opped into my eowcf.

[mir]

I keep a list of Kingdoms/Provinces that give us grief in eowcf to be used at a time when they are most vulnerable. And I also message the province as well as their monarch to let them know they are going on that list. We have had very few repeat offenders ;)

[THX1912]

You are misunderstanding this. You are free to hit/op into anyone's war at any time, the game allows it. Similarly, everyone is free to hit/op you when they feel like it.

There is no misunderstanding. I never said the contrary. My point is that people are overreacting when it comes to robing into eowcf. Imagine if someone threatened to kill a prov because they stole into someone's fortified stance. While they're perfectly allowed to do so, I think we all agree that this would be overreacting. Most people agree that it is fair game to rob into fortified stance. Well, I argue that eowcf is just like an improved fortified stance, and thus, unlike what most people think, it is also fair game to rob into it.

After all, both have a similar max duration, both equally limit the pumping potential, both can be ended at anytime by the monarch. Both offer protection against the same offences, but one protects better than the other. You also need to go through more hardship to get it, while the other, less safe, is more flexible and can be entered at any time. And as I demonstrated earlier, even though the protection offered in eowcf is greated because you will be weaker, by the time you are of any interest to a robber, you had plenty of time to train enough thieves to defend yourself effectively. Ergo, it shouldn't be regarded as some sacred safe heaven, but more like a glorified fortified stance. And ergo, it should be seen as fair game to steal from an eowcf.

I have brought fact and numbers to support my point, no one else has. All you guys say is basically that you are free to do what you please in reaction. Yes, you are allowed to overreact. I argue that you shouldn't. I'd like to see some people demonstrate like I did why this should by a holly sanctum.

Also, I don't remember who said the penalties didn't stack and I'm too lazy (and in too much of a hurry) to go back and see who it was. I'd like to point out that Bishop is obviously disagrees with me but didn't take the opportunity to weaken my argument by confirming it didn't stack, so my guess is I was right.

Your mistake is in thinking that hitting/opping will have no consequences further down the line because at the time of your ops/hits the person is not in a position to retaliate.

I don't recall saying anything like that.

Andr3w has understood well that the wrong target could be something as simple as "a kingdom that has the time".

I personally dislike more another kingdom (other than Debauchery) that has also stolen from us in this eowcf. Maybe it is yours, THX1912?

It's hard to tell if you don't name names. You'll understand, considering the witch hunt against Debauchery, that I'm not interested in advertising which KD I'm part off ;-)

[Bishop]

There is no misunderstanding. I never said the contrary. My point is that people are overreacting when it comes to robing into eowcf. Imagine if someone threatened to kill a prov because they stole into someone's fortified stance. While they're perfectly allowed to do so, I think we all agree that this would be overreacting. Most people agree that it is fair game to rob into fortified stance. Well, I argue that eowcf is just like an improved fortified stance, and thus, unlike what most people think, it is also fair game to rob into it.

After all, both have a similar max duration, both equally limit the pumping potential, both can be ended at anytime by the monarch. Both offer protection against the same offences, but one protects better than the other. You also need to go through more hardship to get it, while the other, less safe, is more flexible and can be entered at any time. And as I demonstrated earlier, even though the protection offered in eowcf is greated because you will be weaker, by the time you are of any interest to a robber, you had plenty of time to train enough thieves to defend yourself effectively. Ergo, it shouldn't be regarded as some sacred safe heaven, but more like a glorified fortified stance. And ergo, it should be seen as fair game to steal from an eowcf.

I have brought fact and numbers to support my point, no one else has. All you guys say is basically that you are free to do what you please in reaction. Yes, you are allowed to overreact. I argue that you shouldn't. I'd like to see some people demonstrate like I did why this should by a holly sanctum.

Also, I don't remember who said the penalties didn't stack and I'm too lazy (and in too much of a hurry) to go back and see who it was. I'd like to point out that Bishop is obviously disagrees with me but didn't take the opportunity to weaken my argument by confirming it didn't stack, so my guess is I was right.

You are free to consider it over reacting. More people disagree with you though and that's really what counts. If the majority of players agreed that stealing into eowcf was cool then we would all be doing it. Behaviour is only acceptable as long as as the majority agree, or you are in such a position of power as to enforce your standards. Neither is the case here.

In this situation you are taking advantage of a (temporarily) weaker opponent, that is good. You are doing so at such a time that most players agree you should not, this could potentially be bad. The other kingdom can indeed train TPA and protect themselves. That costs a lot of GC though and gimps their income, pop growth, berecovery etc. A more effective way to save GC long term is to raze kill any kingdom that ops into eowcf. The aggressor in this case is sacrificing short term gain for long term success - its a very short sighted strategy.

I'm not sure what penalties you are referring to (i didnt see you ask me a question), but they probably stack as most do.


TLDR: Opping into my eowcf is lame and I will razekill you for it when the situation is reversed.

[Petrified]

Edit: @Petrified:

As for the penalty stacking, from my experience, it certainly seems like it does stack.

The guide is incorrect. The penalty is the same as fortified stance, i.e. gains only.

As for double stack of negative gains, I only know it does not work like this for spells as another kd was casting explosions on me from their war into my war and getting something like 6 hour durations, which is just -75% and not -93%. Have not tested thievery.

[citadela01]

I consider stealing into eowcf lame and thats about it.
On my personal morality scale commonly observed actions like vulturing, hiting/oping into hostiles, fake tagging , double hostile etc etc are worse/on pair and yet happen all the time.

I feel ppl are just jumpin on hatin bandwagon here.

[Bishop]

The guide is incorrect. The penalty is the same as fortified stance, i.e. gains only.

As for double stack of negative gains, I only know it does not work like this for spells as another kd was casting explosions on me from their war into my war and getting something like 6 hour durations, which is just -75% and not -93%. Have not tested thievery.

You mean war? Im pretty sure that its gaisn and effectiveness, fortified is just gains. The guide should be updated to reflect that - if its not link me please and i'll edit it.

[Petrified]

You mean war? Im pretty sure that its gaisn and effectiveness, fortified is just gains. The guide should be updated to reflect that - if its not link me please and i'll edit it.

Yes through war. You've said multiple times that fortified works exactly the same as war penalty so I am going by that. I've also been robbed many times through 10tpa in eowcf so I figured it's just gains.

[ArcDurath]

<removed for avoiding autofilter>

[Tightpants]

well anger is the first step arcdu

next is denial (which several people are going through in this thread)

then bargaining (well we only cheated for one war, can't we have some of our other wins back?)

then depression, and then finally acceptance

it's gonna be a long journey, but you'll make it.

[Persain]

Oh, but I do all the time! I often stumble on someone who did train some thieves before stacking the cash.

more likely they just ended war w/theives that doesnt always happen.

Look, if you don't have more than 5mil, I wont even bother trying. At 5mil, I make about 50-60k per op, and if I fail, I loose over 200 thieves. Like I said previously, with all the effectiveness penalties, my 25mod TPA drops to about 2. Just train enough for me to fail 1 op out of 3 and I'll move on because you're not profitable enough. I do believe that by the time you can stack 5mil, you've had time to train 1.5-2TPA raw. If not, your econ is so strong you'll make up for what I took in a few hours, so don't cry me a river.

Your tpa drops from 28 mod to 7 mod if its reduced 75%. To train enough theives to slow u down as an orc/undead i'd need roughly 2.5 raw tpa. Consider that MOST pure attackers dont even run that. You dont even consider that it takes a MINIMUM 24 hours to train that(18 hours to train, 6 hours to draft if u rush it)..during which time your priority should be hitting max pop & rebuilding not rushing tpa.


Now consider someone like me in after war. To slow u down as my human i need 2 raw tpa. 2 raw tpa=7000 peasants. 7000 peasants give me roughly 3.2 million gold if i keep them as peasants for 70 hours. Thats a substation amount of gold.
Also consider how much gold i need to draft/train to 70% and get "ready" for my next war. First i had to rebuild to 70% guilds (was AW hard) post war and draft from 30%.

10%->70%->20% guilds costs about 6 million gold. Training tpa costs 5 million gold. Training leets costs 13.5 million gold, drafting costs another 4 million. So i need about 28.5 million gold to be "war" ready...heres a hint if u take ZERO gold i wont be able to draft/train up that far during eowcf and that extra 3.2 million from not having 2 tpa makes a big impact on my ability to train up. When u take 5 million gold your taking 1/6 of the gold i need..my economy cant recover from that....my last eowcf i only made 17-20 million or so gc...thats not exactly the 30 million i needed