CR vs AMA

[RawStuff]

Damn i<m out of popcorn! Wait 2 min before i go grab an other one!

+1 for the drama
+1 for the ****play
+1 for this thread going to min 40 pages (whats the record btw?)

[Palem]

(whats the record btw?)

The music thread in General Talk is 107 pages long. Pretty sure that's the record lol

[RawStuff]

okok, then I order more backstabbing from a top kd around page 35 (when nobody has anymore insults / replies post from the past to have an excuse for that ****ty situation)

[Uhm hoi]

After it our kd had only 1 goal= make sure Havoc wont win age. I made vote pool in kd and posted several options for act. So far i preferred other solution not this but ppl in kd told me i need to stop being so "nice and honorable" when every age we get **** play and no one care about it. So they decide we will wave Havoc and we did. I really don't care if we will win or not age, but if we win i can live with it too :)

So I guess you can update your autograph now ;)

[Aranfein]

So what can we all learn from this... Don't be so unprepared that people are tempted to wave you even when holding all advantages. (especially after treatening/taunting/bullying the exact same kingdom). - And apparently CF'ers seem of little use or mean very little to the very top.

[Realest]

What we learned here is that it's Amateur hour around here. One kingdom did not care to keep tabs on their surroundings, and one kingdom reacted like a little girl. At the end of the day, lineage matters, and that has been ratio decidendi circa ASF and dorje.

[Maximouse]

Well, after some hours of sleep I guess I should post here as well. There will be a part that is just my personal view on the current situation and a part that’s my personal view on the matter of AMA vs. CR.

PERSONALY, (the broader picture)
I never cared much for grudges. I think if you go back long enough you will always find some dirt on somebody. And with the current narrow player base, basically you could blame anything from 10+ ages ago on any KD since 1 of their past members would be playing in 1 of the current top KD's now.
(for example: CR could be blamed for things, BB, AMA, Havoc, monolith, pantheon, brute force, the whole list of old ABS KD's, most of the list of the old exodus KD's, etc etc etc. did at some point in the past. But we could blame BB, AMA, Pyro, Pew2, Simians, Rage and probably several others for those same things)

If we keep going down this road it will only accomplish 2 things.
1: ****play will decide every crown from now until the day this game will die.
2: The game will die a lot faster since nobody likes an environment where nobody can be trusted anymore, and it will just cause more and more people to quit playing.

I don’t want to believe the above is anything anybody that loves this game is willing to accomplish. It’s been a downward spiral of ethics and morality now for a lot of ages with the current situation of ama deal breaking us just being like the next example in a WAY TOO LONG list already.
(and before anybody will claim otherwise. I am not a saint either. I just hope everybody else in the top realises they are not saints themselves. Everybody currently in the top has their part in the current downward spiral of ethics and moral)

I been talking to Darkie (co leader of BB with flogger) about this downward spiral and we both feel it has to stop for the good of the game in general. The 2 of us managed to look beyond the grudge feelings between BB and CR (probably 1 of the stronger grudges still present in the game), so we think others can as well. It’s just a matter of whether or not they are willing to start with a clean sheet.
Most people involved in the top say they are willing to give it a try, but several also just don’t believe it can be done because of other leaders they don’t trust. I think it only depends on whether the current leaders still playing really want a more fair playing ground or if they really only care about crowning any way possible.

The rough idea of what Darkie and I have in mind would be a sort of rulebook which all KD's involved in the top would feel comfortable with. Such a rulebook would include something like:

1: From this age onwards, the past is only the past. No more BS about what anybody did how many ages ago. (Yes that would include the current deal break ama pulls on cr. I dont mind leaving that behind me at eoa if that way more important goals get reached.)
2: No farming (like how jerks got their crown at the expense of BB/AMA that were racing for it and deserved it)
3: No deal breaking
4: No 2vs1
5: No dibs EVER. You follow your CF agreements and if your target isn’t in hostile and you got no CF with them anymore you can wave.
6: 1 on 1, anything goes. It’s up to the 2 KD's involved to either fight it out or get to some kind of CF deal.
7: If any KD that signed this breaks any of the rules listed from 2 till 6, all other KD’s are obligated to stop what they are doing and act as 1 against the KD breaking the rules.

Note: the above is just a rough sketch of what we have in mind. Please don’t start debating this in detail and especially not in here.

Darkie and I had planned to bring this up to all current leaders near eoa, but given the current situation there really wasn’t any reason to wait any longer.

PERSONALY: (the current situation)

CR has worked hard (and smart) to get into the position we were in like 18 hours ago. We took acres from Simians that some here call a tax, but in reality it’s just us waving them in exchange for a prolonged cf. That happens a few 100 times per age. Only difference between the normal waving in exchange for a CF is that we actually talked to simians prior to waving them and came to an agreement. But all that side stuff aside, it still comes down to the bigger KD waving the smaller KD and then extending the CF afterwards. How that is in any way different from what every other KD does is beyond me. We just agreed on a time that was good for both KD’s involved. Some call that lame, I call it smart.
About the “threats” we made towards AMA, they are at best just that, threats. I haven’t seen any KD that justifies deal breaks because of threats until now. If that’s the new standard, then I guess we could have broken deals with pretty much any KD in the top 15 and vice versa.
Facts are that we had a CF till yr9 with a 72h notice attached. We kept that, AMA didn’t.
Any KD that condones AMA’s current move is basically saying that threats are now a good enough reason to break deals.
Whether we like it or not, AMA has decided they think it’s fair to take us out of the race. And basically nothing we or anybody else together or alone will do can stop them from reaching their goal. With Pyro, pew2 and others as close as they are atm, any action against AMA will come too late to give us a fair shot at the crown anymore.
Am I pissed about it? No, I can honestly say I am not. Atm I am just sad that this will be the 3rd age in row were ****play will decide the crown. Just as I was sad last age when BB/AMA were cheated out of their crown. Age before that SWEA won, but I was still retired so I don’t know the whole inside story there.

I personally think it would be fair if AMA gives back all the acres and resources they took from this deal breaking, but I am very well aware AMA won’t do that.
I also think it would be fair for AMA to leave the top charts completely since any achievement they would reach from this point onward would be build upon their deal breaking right now.

Proteus has claimed AMA will intra raze the acres they are taking from us. I also saw logs where he states they will intra raze to take themselves out of the top completely.
I just wonder how their current tactics work if the above is truly their intention.
Why not raze instead of TM to begin with?
Why bother with plunders. By the time we get trained up AMA will have effectively taken us out of the race completely. And our stocks are so deep that plunders don’t stop us from training up anyways. All plunders accomplish at this point is giving AMA resources to train up with since they had no gc stocks themselves.
Why would they need to train up further if they are already trained up far enough to take us out of the race?

Conclusion:
It doesn’t add up. Their actions and their words show 2 different things.
AMA will achieve their goal and stop us from crowning no matter what happens. Their actions and words don’t line up atm (why not raze from the start, why plunder at all?) and it’s up to the rest of the KD’s to decide if they want to trust AMA’s word or not.

For CR the situation is now as followed:

-We got cheated out of a strong position to win the age and get put into a position that will have at best 1 or 2% chance to win the age.
-We want AMA out of the race as well. Not just to intra raze the acres they are taking from us (how will they get rid of the money they are taking?), but out of the race completely. They don’t deserve to even have a shot at the crown after this. Without action they would actually be in the strongest position of all KD’s competing for the crown.
- We don’t trust their word, and luckily we are not alone in that lack of trust. Their actions and words don’t match up, and even if they would, it would be the word of 2 people that deal broke to get rid of their strongest opponent. Which sane person would trust them if they get into a position that can potentially be between 70K and 100K acres away from the 2nd place?

So as a KD our goal now is very simple and clear. Make sure AMA goes down as well. We can’t stop them from taking us down, but we can at least make an effort to stop deal breakers from getting to compete for the crown either.

We hope to unite the community in this goal, because alone we are in no position to do it. So far everybody believes AMA doesn’t deserve a chance at the crown after this. It will be interesting to see how many KD’s will actually be willing to back up their words and if there will be KD’s that will try to exploit the situation and make the crown this age even more corrupted.

At the end of this way too long post I like to point out that for me personally I care more about the 1st section of this post than the 2nd section.
Getting something arranged to stop this kind of lame play from happening for a 4th age in a row (that means next age) means a lot more to me than getting even with AMA now.
Even now, I can’t even feel pissed about what happened. Just sad. Sad that this will be the 3rd age in a row something that everybody considers lame play will dictate the outcome of the crown race.
I am not even sadder than I was last age when I was just fooling around in a ghetto and it didn’t affect me personally.

[Palem]

1: ****play will decide every crown from now until the day this game will die.

****play has decided every crown.

The kd that can get away with the most while convincing everyone else they're innocent wins.

[Proteus]

Proteus has claimed AMA will intra raze the acres they are taking from us. I also saw logs where he states they will intra raze to take themselves out of the top completely.
I just wonder how their current tactics work if the above is truly their intention.
Why not raze instead of TM to begin with?
Why bother with plunders. By the time we get trained up AMA will have effectively taken us out of the race completely. And our stocks are so deep that plunders don?t stop us from training up anyways. All plunders accomplish at this point is giving AMA resources to train up with since they had no gc stocks themselves.
Why would they need to train up further if they are already trained up far enough to take us out of the race?

Conclusion:
It doesn?t add up. Their actions and their words show 2 different things.
AMA will achieve their goal and stop us from crowning no matter what happens. Their actions and words don?t line up atm (why not raze from the start, why plunder at all?) and it?s up to the rest of the KD?s to decide if they want to trust AMA?s word or not.

For CR the situation is now as followed:

-We got cheated out of a strong position to win the age and get put into a position that will have at best 1 or 2% chance to win the age.
-We want AMA out of the race as well. Not just to intra raze the acres they are taking from us (how will they get rid of the money they are taking?), but out of the race completely. They don?t deserve to even have a shot at the crown after this. Without action they would actually be in the strongest position of all KD?s competing for the crown.
- We don?t trust their word, and luckily we are not alone in that lack of trust. Their actions and words don?t match up, and even if they would, it would be the word of 2 people that deal broke to get rid of their strongest opponent. Which sane person would trust them if they get into a position that can potentially be between 70K and 100K acres away from the 2nd place?

So as a KD our goal now is very simple and clear. Make sure AMA goes down as well. We can?t stop them from taking us down, but we can at least make an effort to stop deal breakers from getting to compete for the crown either.

We hope to unite the community in this goal, because alone we are in no position to do it. So far everybody believes AMA doesn?t deserve a chance at the crown after this. It will be interesting to see how many KD?s will actually be willing to back up their words and if there will be KD?s that will try to exploit the situation and make the crown this age even more corrupted.

At the end of this way too long post I like to point out that for me personally I care more about the 1st section of this post than the 2nd section.
Getting something arranged to stop this kind of lame play from happening for a 4th age in a row (that means next age) means a lot more to me than getting even with AMA now.
Even now, I can?t even feel pissed about what happened. Just sad. Sad that this will be the 3rd age in a row something that everybody considers lame play will dictate the outcome of the crown race.
I am not even sadder than I was last age when I was just fooling around in a ghetto and it didn?t affect me personally.

Couple things

1. Why did you (Sanc) and Havoc decide to cheat AMA out of a crown several ages ago when they too have gotten themselves into a stronger position, completely farmed Sanc in a 1v1 fight without any outside interference and were unbeatable for Havoc after war was over. Why did you take it upon yourselves to double team and waste all of their good effort and planning?

2. We are TMing you because it is the strategically most sound move, I am not sure if you only do diplo for the kds you play in or strat? It would make no sense to not TM a kingdom with the highest bpa/gc stocks on server and not have any credits. Not to mention we had to train early because your buddy remote decide to hit a bunch of our provinces and we had no stocks going into this. Why are we taking your gold with plunders? To limit your training and so we can train. This is strategy 101, otherwise there is no point if trying to punish you as it will just not work. This just looks like 100% propaganda intended to incite someone to help you rather than a serious question.

3. As already mentioned, once there is assurance that havoc is out of the crown race we are going to dump all acres we took. Community will hold us to this word and be the judge.

4. We are not doing this with the intention of crowning, we are doing this so YOU do not crown.

5. There is no way we would allow you to double AMA a few ages ago and continue ****play this age and dictating who we fight or risk being 2v1ed by you, perhaps next time you wont adopt the attitude "well I am big and pumped all age while everyone else was fighting so what I say goes." Maybe next time you will have at least the semblance of fairness.

[topsy's revenge]

Proteus, no one outside of ama thinks that a situation in which you war pyro and then if you win that war you war us 96 hours after eowcf is a situation that isn't fair. As was told to your leadership for the entire time I am the one who would be making any decisions and I was the one who offered that deal and told cello the first night that I was open to other deals. I was not in the kd 3 ages ago and what happens is my decision, so I am not sure why you think returning to a situation like that is useful.

[Lykron]

Stripers was gbed from abs and they farmed abs, same we did when AMA was gbed from pew/stripers/simians 2-3 ages ago.
Pew Pew, they get every age cf from BB and after last age farm out to RBL now are ally so i dont think its "hurt to be pew pew" :)

This age after yr 0 there had 4 kds going for land chart. Pyro/RBL/Pew Pew (they are ally) and Havoc. For some strange reason all 4 kds cfed till yr 10 and this build huge dis-balance in server. Its result AMA was in chain war from pew/rbl and effective blocked from alliance from over half age for not explore. Main problem is this was our age off and only reason we grow is ppl forced us and refuse to gave us CF. We made our CF with zauper last age and main propose was to keep both kds good relation. AMA is not interfere last 3 ages in havoc/bb 1vs1 run and BB is not interfere in AMA/Pew Pew. Its look fair to me.

So AMA/PB had really hard age war kds with cows/size advantage and Havoc spend all age bash small kds and vulture kds. Its effective tactic, but if Pew Pew have won his war vs AMA its will resulted Pyro/RBL knock for free acres from AMA too and after it alliance will farmed Simians. Complete isolate Havoc from any source for gain land and yr 10 having 3 ally kds bigger from Havoc. I told zauper many times they did terrible bad age with this long cfs and basically they got chance for win age only because AMA won his wars and its gave chance Simians to vulture Pew Pew and Havoc used it for make another good deal for his kd. I dont have problem with this, but after our war with RBL we extended our CF with Pyro for 2 weeks so they can have his war with simians+ time for prepare to war us. If we had any plans for dodge Havoc was easy to set CF expire 24h before this with Havoc. I just dont need this kind trick when we was in very good relation with zauper last 3 ages. I gone on tournaments and told cello to extend cf with Havoc and answer from Zauper was he will extend it just need to look over details and wanted to talk pyro. After 3-4 days i asked cello what is our new deal with Havoc and answer was there is no new deal. Its clear stall and i had chat with zauper 2-3 ages ago this kind diplo is not acceptable and i dont like it. So i pmed him and asked what its going and for my suprise he told his kd take over him and don't want to extend us. Its hapend around same time when Remote start raze us, and same time Simians donate 17?k land for free to Havoc. All this really pissed me off. WTF is this kd take over Zauper? Next day Munk decide to make this brave post in forum for abuse our deal and say we cant war pyro. This is not enough but Godly posted how we farmed pew pew and rage and he wont allow more it! All this act and talk are extremly rude and its offensive not only to my kd but to pew pew/RBL too. If Havoc was this good and brave why you Cfed them for 10 weeks and didn't go war them how we did? You think its easy to war kd with cows and size advantage and win? I can tell you its NOT EASY and both Pew Pew and RBL is decent kingdoms and im not acept this crap talk for my wars with them. When is last time when Havoc won close war?

So after kd take over Zauper its become clear we have same Havoc from 3-4 ages ago. Both co-monarch Nick_me and Maximause play there and for bonus we have more ego rude people like Godly. They made it clear in forum for few days we wont get war with pyro for free. This was your fatal mistake. After it our kd had only 1 goal= make sure Havoc wont win age. I made vote pool in kd and posted several options for act. So far i preferred other solution not this but ppl in kd told me i need to stop being so "nice and honorable" when every age we get **** play and no one care about it. So they decide we will wave Havoc and we did. I really don't care if we will win or not age, but if we win i can live with it too :)

so basically if you dont like how people set up their own age and if they are rude to you then it's a good reason to dealbreak. thats good to know for future ages. another page from elit's book of how the game should be played.

[Lykron]

Couple things

1. Why did you (Sanc) and Havoc decide to cheat AMA out of a crown several ages ago when they too have gotten themselves into a stronger position, completely farmed Sanc in a 1v1 fight without any outside interference and were unbeatable for Havoc after war was over. Why did you take it upon yourselves to double team and waste all of their good effort and planning?

2. We are TMing you because it is the strategically most sound move, I am not sure if you only do diplo for the kds you play in or strat? It would make no sense to not TM a kingdom with the highest bpa/gc stocks on server and not have any credits. Not to mention we had to train early because your buddy remote decide to hit a bunch of our provinces and we had no stocks going into this. Why are we taking your gold with plunders? To limit your training and so we can train. This is strategy 101, otherwise there is no point if trying to punish you as it will just not work. This just looks like 100% propaganda intended to incite someone to help you rather than a serious question.

3. As already mentioned, once there is assurance that havoc is out of the crown race we are going to dump all acres we took. Community will hold us to this word and be the judge.

4. We are not doing this with the intention of crowning, we are doing this so YOU do not crown.

5. There is no way we would allow you to double AMA a few ages ago and continue ****play this age and dictating who we fight or risk being 2v1ed by you, perhaps next time you wont adopt the attitude "well I am big and pumped all age while everyone else was fighting so what I say goes." Maybe next time you will have at least the semblance of fairness.

except they are not havoc... and also may i remember that you were actually defending havoc back then ? hypocrisy at maximum where it concerns you

[TommyB]

It will be interesting to see how many KD?s will actually be willing to back up their words and if there will be KD?s that will try to exploit the situation and make the crown this age even more corrupted.

Why shouldn't any kingdom try to "exploit the situation"? That makes no sense. If the two biggest contenders take each other out of the race that's their business.

Both AMA and CR have now stated that they are not interested in the crown anymore. Funny. But then please stay out of it and let more serious contenders grab for it. :P

[RemoteAdvisor]

Couple things
Not to mention we had to train early because your buddy remote decide to hit a bunch of our provinces and we had no stocks going into this.

You were running stupidly low defense without having CFs with people you bullied the age before. The razes from us had nothing to do with helping anyone, it had everything to do with getting back at you. Don't try to use us as an excuse for your lameplay, you ****ed up your own pumping by not CFing us.

[KuhaN]

you can paint **** as gold but the **** still smell.

btw you can delegate authority but not responsibility.

Them quotes though...

That sums it up but you're making it much to simple for the CR savants to grasp..

I was never a fan of ama, many are not.. but I am willing to admit where I was wrong they are clearly the best whoring and war kd on the server. CR on the other hand has run weak provs most of the age and have strayed from zauper ethics and have lost much respect from the Utopian community..

Now there is chatter about GB from monkeyman and other butt hurt who for whatever reason wont admit they are just not as good as ama..

Not calling for GB here.. However I'm all for a server war. If CR, rage or monkeyman wants to orchestrate a GB on a kd they tried to antagonize and taunt as they have with ama and a good portion of the server. I give your garbage Notice I will be hitting into CR.. To all you ghettos (anyone under top 3) who have been pushed around by CR this age don't let your luv for zauper conflict your judgement. CR is not zauper anymore. CR is taken over by disrespectful rogue **** players who treated you all age with much disrespect.. Remember that truth when you decide who to hit...

Is this guy for real?