Large Human Kingdoms

[Napoleon Bonaparte]

Yet somehow the same 20% gains cripple the thief.

I never said the gains are what cripples them, I said that it is the fact that there are no viable targets + the fact that your tpa is weakened by gains.


Again might I reiterate, I started off the age as A/T and did well stealing runes/NS/kidnap, but through my experience not theory, as wars drag on as a A/T you have very limited target selection and the ones you can op yield very low returns per op considering how many fbs are incoming. Can I give KD coords etc or is that banned in this forum? I know its banned in recruitment.

(and no, your peasants will still die if they want them to.)

Its all dependent on opponent and how the war plays out (are the enemy TM attacking/LL?). Although Elves cant at the beginning of war, once the war drags on a bit most competent elves are gonna be able to start getting in ~50% of their FBs on you. That being said I have had Faeries and Halflings fail to cast a single spell on me with a ridiculous amount of attempts before so depending on the situation you are potentially safe from TM as a human. More importantly there are 7 Human/Tact in my KD including me so if their TM are failing half their spells on me although they will eventually bring me down that means my fellow humans will grow unchecked.

[skoyl12]

Actually there is a paradox with zauper's elf. If any of the war kds had an elf like that, first it would get sci farmed all the time and in war it would be a liability because rogues can farm it with prop really bad. Now the funny part is that most war kds stay at 1k acres half+ the age so zauper's elf seem really overpowered compared to the rest. 2.5 mill/acre sci books for a race without tog and mind focus is not easy to get.

[tetley]

>your face when you realize being a war kingdom is holding you back from playing the game optimally

[Zauper]

I never said the gains are what cripples them, I said that it is the fact that there are no viable targets + the fact that your tpa is weakened by gains.


Again might I reiterate, I started off the age as A/T and did well stealing runes/NS/kidnap, but through my experience not theory, as wars drag on as a A/T you have very limited target selection and the ones you can op yield very low returns per op considering how many fbs are incoming. Can I give KD coords etc or is that banned in this forum? I know its banned in recruitment.

In my experience warring better kingdoms and running a better kingdom than yours, you are wrong. Our last war vs pyro, after eating a FB run and getting hit into TW (running fae a/t/m), I kidnapped back about 18k peasants. At ~13 mwpa, (5 rwpa + 160% sci), any t/m can throw fireballs on you. Considering the def you leave home, you're in double/triple range of high-off provs, so you'd probably get chained not fireballed.

Even without TDs and having ~3 rTPA I had no issues repopulating myself with kidnap, without substantial fails. You leave likely chain targets with high peasants so you can cause desertions; you can spread kidnaps over a few of them to repop your provs. And, beyond that, you also have other things you can do than kidnap (such as NS).

And, like I said, you're better off if you have the WPA and the TPA.

Also, you were the one talking about how you run your prov as an a/m; pointing out that elf makes a stronger a/m seems relevant to the conversation since we're talking about why human is a poor a/m.

skoyl12: Sure, if you're being realistic, the elf would probably also be running 5 or 6 TPA instead so it can easily NS targets after NMing, or NS in general, and that works as a solid defensive TPA as well.

[noobium]

There really isn't such a thing as a dedicated "a/m", aside from provinces that are locked into magic by their race (Elf) or personality (Mystic) picks.
Everything else is just a matter of having the right wpa to cast at the right time, and of course having good channeling science. (Sage is kind of encouraged to play mage if they're doing it right, but Sage is pretty crappy this age.) Most warring kingdoms should prioritize channeling on ALL provinces. The kingdom that enters war with 2.5-3 rwpa against a kingdom with 1.5 rwpa wouldn't be a/m, but they would have a wpa advantage as war drags on, and targets are opened up.

likewise there aren't really a/ts any more, just races with the ability to build up thief advantages as war goes on. human does fine because they can enter war with kinda bad tpa and build it up, and with slightly better crime science and defense they will succeed enough. if your war strategy does not plan on training extra thieves during war, then you should forget about any a/t at all (including and especially halfling).

most big humans aren't playing hybrid anything, because raw military and economy is more useful for their purposes. human is better for exploiting weak tpa/wpa than it is at trying to overpower fully pumped provinces, since it is relatively easy now to open up thief and mage weak spots. if those weak spots don't exist, then the human still has a decent army and better economy to work with.

[tetley]

most big humans aren't playing hybrid anything,

uhh

[StratOcastle]

Advice has to apply to circumstance. My queen runs her human very well and we only have 3. So the idea they'll get picked on is only relevant to organization levels that dictate humans as targets. The lower tier is much more oriented toward player to player duels than lockstep waving. Even with human negatives showing their a$$ due to lower science threshold you can achieve variables like NB is suggesting and be effective. It's wrong in your neighborhood but is serviceable down here.

You can site lack of competition organizationally, true. The fact is we see our share of wonky builds in the lower tier and it's up to the player to adjust positively. For instance my build, elf tac, is serviceable here because I cover supporting ops, attacks, intel etc. This is a travesty in uniform wave/activity based kingdoms. Even I was a bit taken back by my dependence on kingdom activity to be effective. I've set up provinces to be taken apart but we simply don't get the bodies online to take advantage. Thus, the wisdom of my queens tweener trumps mine because she can self sustain under duress with a higher octane elite and ToG. She went warrior this age.

Different kingdom last age, I ran an elf cleric and was very successful because the kingdom had a good little core of 4-6 players that understood complimentary tactics. The mid nw zone control I like running was ideal and tested against orcs and undead. The elf cleric can absorb a great deal of punishment if running relay taps with t/m support. In my case I'd log on at break and I'd have a msg telling me the current defense of a nightmared province in my vicinity. Thus I'd knock it down via t/m exchange and feed them to our chain gang. My province was too new to have anything but a defensible wpa so everything was done as an attacker.

[tetley]

stratO, elf/ta wasting stealth on intel is a travesty in ANY kingdom ;)

[StratOcastle]

stratO, elf/ta wasting stealth on intel is a travesty in ANY kingdom ;)

I know: undead tac. - The problem down here is plugging holes. We have(had) 4 tacs, myself included. We simply don't get consistent intel gathering from other tacs, and I mean almost zero. This isn't just here, it's all over the lower tier. You can have kingdoms with a multitude of tacs and none will grab intel. Thus, my choice was pure experience based on traveling.

Doing support ops also is something I'm familiar with. In my kingdom the orders specifically ask for PF on given targets; usually 3, and they never have PF. Again, not just here. Arktic Fury was the most consistent kingdom at blanket ops I've seen in these parts including believe it or not HRS. But HRS was a bit of an anomaly in that the stigma of TFC was in the air. Spahrep was under tremendous pressure that age as our apex mystic and our primary UB with a poor war record. That's why I'm happy for Spahrep to have an age of just playing. - We currently have no mystic and our primary rogue just got swept away by the Utopian Lords.

I'm also doing some of the most embarrassing attacks in all the kingdoms. Chains aren't in style so i'm muddling through with my elf elites and my building assigned to anything but offense. The war before last I worked myself into the enemy upper 3rd where I could only tap them once with army out and they could triple me lol. But all this is the lower tier experience. It keeps me sharp and the charms are definitely in the weaknesses. I'm not a/t/m, I'm patchwork.

[noobium]

uhh

I wish people would not insult me because they are illiterate.

[Zauper]

I wish people would not insult me because they are illiterate.

The issue is that you're (mostly) wrong. You're right that humans do well exploiting t/m weaknesses in other kd's provs, but you're wrong that humans want to prioritize raw military. Why? Because human's raw military is weak.

Human/Sage @ 1k a. 90% draft, 0.9ppa, 0ospa, 0dspa, 23.8epa (195.6opa/116.9dpa) p(118.52 opa/46.76) 2tpa (5.4), 2wpa (5.4)
Sci: 2400 bpa (300|300|500|100|400|400|400) / effect (34.3|24.5|20.6|113.3|39.6|169.9|169.9)(10% libs)
Build: 65.5% BE farms 8%, tg 15%, rax 15%, fort 10%, hosps 15%, guilds 10%, towers 10%, libs 10%, stable 7%,

Undead/Non-Sage @ 1k a. 90% draft, 0.9ppa, 0ospa, 9dspa, 15.4epa (148.7opa/81.8dpa) p(146.98 opa/44.15) 2tpa (4.83), 2wpa (4.83)

See how the undead has ~30% more offense with the same defense? And that's on 2.5k BPA.

Orc/Non-Sage @ 1k a. 90% draft, 0.8ppa, 0ospa, 9dspa, 14.6epa (141opa/61.8dpa) p(139.31 opa/44.01) 2tpa (4.27), 2wpa (4.27)

Halfling/Non-Sage @ 1k a. 91% draft, 0.9ppa, 9ospa, 0dspa, 18.3epa (162.9opa/89.8dpa) p(112.93 opa/44.92) 2tpa (7.25), 2wpa (4.83)

Halfling falls slightly behind, but again -- 2500 BPA and running attacker.

Elf/Non-Sage @ 1k a. 91% draft, 0.6ppa, 0ospa, 7.5dspa, 17.2epa (119.9opa/130dpa) p(118.17 opa/45.93) 2tpa (4.83), 2wpa (6.28)

Elf is also slightly behind, but probably better. Considering 2500 BPA, which is unreasonable for most provs and only attainable very late in the age in general. Plus, the whole usable as an a/m thing.

Humans do well when you take your science -- which includes heavy investment in channel and crime -- to gain thief and magic advantages over the other kd that you can exploit to turn into peasant / military advantages. Running as essentially pure attacker makes them weaker versions of undead/orcs, and even on extreme BPA only barely overcomes their native military disadvantage compared to other turtle races.

[tetley]

I wish people would not insult me because they are illiterate.

I wish people would not post incorrect information because they haven't followed the wars of or taken the intel of, apparently, any of the big humans in the top 10.

[noobium]

6 raw tpa on human, seriously? This forum has gotten so stupid.

I guess because of the lack of skill in the game, organized kingdoms can get away with just about anything though.

[Squee311]

6 raw tpa on human, seriously? This forum has gotten so stupid.

I guess because of the lack of skill in the game, organized kingdoms can get away with just about anything though.

To be fair we all play the same game and no offense I highly doubt many people have ran as many numbers as Zauper in this game. Here is a thing that is failed to be realized or mentioned.

Noobium you claim a lack of skill in the game. You realize part of the skill of this game is recognizing what you can and cannot get away with not just running numbers and being active. Pretty sure the top kingdoms take this into account and know what they have to do to fight each other and stay ahead of the pack.

[noobium]

No seriously, people are amazingly stupid and willing to buy anything with a CR logo on it.