The bottom is hot

[beans]

basically saying that he'll lie to force other kds to follow some standard that he created and changed they way we all play utopia? yea, sure thats kinda 1 part of the issue, he'll do/say anything if it makes him look good.

Then they keep geting GB'ed. Spartans havent lost anything till they get a war loss or lose 20-30-40k honor. Acres mean nothing ww/honor have meaning to bart so they gota lose that. They had a chance to not lose either and war us w/a chance to win and take our honor but they long gave that up.

Well I dont see why we should admit this was a DB when most of my kd, either in sparta or other older kds, have suffered the same kind of **** play and been told it was just bad diplo. If there was a standard diplo rule that applied to all, and that rule said what we did was a DB then sure. I'd give a lot to see that happen because then I could monarch a kd again, which I greatly enjoy, with out suffering from the massive diplo disparity that makes this game such a drag.

i offered to have u guys surrender your current war and raze away a portion of your honor.

As for losing a war... You wouldn't want Bart to agree to take a loss and WD as part of some diplomatic deal now would you? feels like we have come full circle now.

[Aces]

You don't seem to be getting this so let me use a real life example to you. Person A Agrees to a verbal deal with person B, Person A then breaks this verbal contract and People C,D and E get upset and start to fight with person A about this. See there is nothing against the in game rules the same as person a didn't break the law, but what he did do was break rules between people, so yes spartans are getting everything they deserve.

Let me give YOU a real life example of what else is going on here. Person A is a politician who lies all the time and steals. Person B (a nobody) lies to person A. Person A friends c and d chime in to help person A because person A is seen as doing nothing wrong before. Did person B do wrong yeah, did person A do wrong... Well yeah...

[Andreas]

That is a fair assessment. I dont really have a problem with any of those aspects of the event.

given that framework of how things "normally" go id just point out. 1) spartan's did not bring this to the forums, we just responded to what others brought here. 2) We understand the UTO police decided this was a DB and accept the consequences of that decision, but don't have to agree with it 3) The UTO police have already taken far far far more than we gained and are demanding we give up more.

1) Ok
2) Uto police... I'd say the active community.
3) This process will continue until you say stop, give us reasonable terms considering a dealbreak has happened. What the police has gained is of no interest. It will be razed away or offered as compensation for the dealbreak in question.

[Aces]

i offered to have u guys surrender your current war and raze away a portion of your honor. can easily get back the "land" you lost. Remember you have to lose something of "value" to you and since acres are meaningless well u havent lost anything yet.


i'll post the conversation later, to many locations to remove first

Yeah beans, raze killing one of your members isnt anything of "value" hell let them raze all the prov. Everything will be fine then.

[beans]

1) Ok
2) Uto police... I'd say the active community.
3) This process will continue until you say stop, give us reasonable terms considering a dealbreak has happened. What the police has gained is of no interest. It will be razed away or offered as compensation for the dealbreak in question.

UTO police wasnt a disparagement. I think it's important that we have kds powerful enough and interested in policing.

We are willing to accept reasonable terms, as far as I can tell we are just stuck on the issue of admitting it was a DB. We don't see it as a DB and are not going to lie and say we do see it that way just to get the OOW GB to stop. Obviously, to all but our most adamant haters, we would not have pulled this move if we saw it as a DB.

[beans]

i'll post the conversation later, to many locations to remove first

Thats why I said or PM. I can take the time to remove locations, and if I miss one then bishop will ban me for 24hrs and you can have the thread to yourself! (I already made that mistake once, new to the forums, DOH!)

Later is fine, im not in a huge hurry. Pls not to much later though as it is relevant to the current discussions.

[zaza945]

UTO police wasnt a disparagement. I think it's important that we have kds powerful enough and interested in policing.

We are willing to accept reasonable terms, as far as I can tell we are just stuck on the issue of admitting it was a DB. We don't see it as a DB and are not going to lie and say we do see it that way just to get the OOW GB to stop. Obviously, to all but our most adamant haters, we would not have pulled this move if we saw it as a DB.

False, your leaders have said they will admit it was deal break (lie?), as long as what you're getting in return is good enough.

[beans]

False, your leaders have said they will admit it was deal break (lie?), as long as what you're getting in return is good enough.

If what we get is good enough.... yes because asking for standardized diplo is really selfish of us. And if new rules/standards are put in place that make it a clear deal break then sure... doesnt make it a lie. With the laissez faire diplo rules we have now I dont see it as a DB, just a ****ty move that we were not powerful enough to get away with.

[Andreas]

UTO police wasnt a disparagement. I think it's important that we have kds powerful enough and interested in policing.

We are willing to accept reasonable terms, as far as I can tell we are just stuck on the issue of admitting it was a DB. We don't see it as a DB and are not going to lie and say we do see it that way just to get the OOW GB to stop. Obviously, to all but our most adamant haters, we would not have pulled this move if we saw it as a DB.

Ok. To make the DB accept thing go away, I'd try offer something that could be of value long term/next age. Grudges dropped, CF breakable on mutual agreement next age, noone/Bart pulling any stunts. I can't say if it will work, but worth a try no?

[Persain]

As for losing a war... You wouldn't want Bart to agree to take a loss and WD as part of some diplomatic deal now would you? feels like we have come full circle now.

surrendering a war that u've lost even becuase an outside kd is demanding it is very much differnt than agreeing to start a war knowing the outcome is pre-arranged.

[beans]

surrendering a war that u've lost even becuase an outside kd is demanding it is very much differnt than agreeing to start a war knowing the outcome is pre-arranged.

The war is far from lost, fake sparta is also getting OOW hits and they are more demoralized than sparta and are having activity issues. We are taking far more OOW hits and have had a PK already, but it could still go either way.

Agreeing now to WD from a war solely as a diplomatic concession to outside KDs, for the purpose of moving our WW score in a direction of their choosing, rather than withdrawing due to the actual war conditions seems exactly like a fake war to me. This is exactly the type of hypocrisy that I am talking about. We get waved because of a supposed fake war offer and now we are threatened with more waves unless we turn our war into a fake war. I'm sure if we made any diplo mistakes that allowed you to break an agreement we make now to hit us more later that you would be supported, because that is just how things work.

[Aces]

The war is far from lost, fake sparta is also getting OOW hits and they are more demoralized than sparta and are having activity issues. We are taking far more OOW hits and have had a PK already, but it could still go either way.

Agreeing now to WD from a war solely as a diplomatic concession to outside KDs, for the purpose of moving our WW score in a direction of their choosing, rather than withdrawing due to the actual war conditions seems exactly like a fake war to me. This is exactly the type of hypocrisy that I am talking about. We get waved because of a supposed fake war offer and now we are threatened with more waves unless we turn our war into a fake war. I'm sure if we made any diplo mistakes that allowed you to break an agreement we make now to hit us more later that you would be supported, because that is just how things work.

^^^^^ this. Forcing a withdraw will alter the ww charts making it a fake war forced upon them and offering to keep hitting them until they withdraw is a direct violation...

[Persain]

The war is far from lost,

you can surrender for any reason you want. outside pressure is one of those. Try to spin it if u dont want the loss but thats not a fake war

[Aces]

you can surrender for any reason you want. outside pressure is one of those. Try to spin it if u dont want the loss but thats not a fake war

Then why did you say you wanted to force a withdraw? Then raze the honor away?

[TommyB]

Agreeing now to WD from a war solely as a diplomatic concession to outside KDs, for the purpose of moving our WW score in a direction of their choosing, rather than withdrawing due to the actual war conditions

The outside hits seem real enough.. wonder why you don't consider them to be a part of your actual war conditions..

seems exactly like a fake war to me. This is exactly the type of hypocrisy that I am talking about.

But only one of the two is cheating.