Suicide Squad VS FReakstyle

[Movitz]

There are no invisible rules or diplo special agreements rules in Utopia Guide
This is only between kingdoms play again each other. Dont rely on those...remember Svea
IF FS dont follow some internal agreements....kill em off, be a burdon, make Alliances
This game is, follow Utopia rules and try win...no other rules.

[Nightmare_]

I've read the stance that it's fair for FS to wave while diplo, I just want to say that Flogger and Protector told me and demanded of me that it's normal courtesy to hold hits while a diplomatic solution is reached if it's ongoing... So if FS was hitting trough, it seems a bit unfair and maybe BB should tell them about the invisible rule book too...

Still doesn't warrant dealbreak on this account, there's a difference between courtesy and dealbreak, all I can say is maybe don't offer FS courtesy in the future, like b2b warring them if they lose, as that's perfectly fair or put in deals they can't go for honour crown if they want a CF.. After all this, it's a fair thing to do according to what's been said, which means they set a dangerous presidence for the coming ages.

Telling someone they can't play because hands are forced by a deal is also ****play nightmare... which was proven last age when a deal was overturned as unfair by community after being agreed, again an example of a **** presidence set by the top.

Make the rulebook for all to see and use it to enforce instead of all this ****, won't happen as top likes to use wordplay to get around invisible rules, if written down that wouldn't be doable.

Unfortunately I haven't been catching up to this thread. I read it last like 20 pages ago, so IDK the situation. I *personally* don't agree with some of the FS play. I told Francis **** would blow up. :D However, that doesn't mean I think it's wrong *objectively*, like some here seem to think. Enforce your personal ethics. Other people respond in kind. That's just the way it is. People will term this 'might = right,' which, in some senses, is true. However, there are other ways to 'win,' 'assert one's position' or 'succeed' that don't require head-on collision. Maneuvering the emotional current of KD relations is another piece. Certain KDs here have failed at both.

Everyone's hands are stained. Dunno how we managed to make this a 70 page wank about who is cleaner and who is justified. :p Hypocrisy will reign, in the end.

[Aranfein]

Oh Nightmare of course everyone's hands a stained it's utopia and noone who leads can claim they ain't done what they can for the better of the kingdom they rule, if they didn't try get advantages where possible they would be a pretty ****ty monarch.

But if you are going to hardball a kingdom or many in this case with FS (looking at this thread at least), you should also expect the scale to tip at some point and things coming back to bite you in the ass (I did last age and I fully expected it, I just didn't have the allies as FS to rescue me), next time it comes around, and it seems it will, these kingdoms will have wised up and take a different approach where allies can only watch from the sideline

I personally like FS and many of the players there, I just don't agree with a bunch of stuff they done over last 3 ages, some are my personal opinion others are more as here, public opinion on how to behave vs kingdoms smaller/less skilled (those words are said carefully) I do think many of the kingdoms FS has fought are good, I just think FS got an edge on most in form of teamplay/experience & strategy.

Movitz - SWEA, also there is a certain rulebook that has to be followed or you feel the wrath, it might not be in the guide but I suggest you ask around or you will be surprised when it comes slapping you in the face.

[Korp]

Well, SWEA didnt feel any wrath before it was too late. Only thing that happend was that they got trashed by AMA age after. Pretty lenient for a lot of the **** they pulled. :P

[Aranfein]

Haha Yea but was too close to age end to do anything :p

[pukusam]

All the kingdoms that said FS won WW crown but didnt help to raze them shld just stfu.

Isnt this game all about winning crown. In other words. Do whatever it takes to win. FS played it right. Bully their way to the top.

For smaller kingdoms outhitting bigger kingdoms as an excuse of playing the victim. That is absolutely untrue. Smaller kingdoms are often forced into cf via wave and at times have no choice but to retal. I havent seen a weaker kd 30% or more smaller than the opposing kingdom win a war. I wonder if FS havr fought any wars in which they were 10-20% smaller in terms of NW and land before

[jmiedema]

"I wonder if FS havr fought any wars in which they were 10-20% smaller in terms of NW and land before"

easy answer. yes we did. against settlers. this age. they withdrew in 48h

[Goodwitch]

The thing is, currently (to any kingdom that has played at the top level, and yes I agree maybe someone like Zauper should make a post explaining the current "Do Not List") hitting a smaller kingdom is not an actionable offense. In the example of SS, they knew they were #2 honour, they knew they didnt have an actual written CF agreement with FS, and all throughout the "SS vs WSK" thread people were saying things like "Watch out SS, FS is coming for you" and "SS better explore up all their explore acres to be ready for FS after they get out of war". So they knew we were coming for them, and choosing to not explore their pool in order to stay small (thinking for some reason that the server would be against #1 honour kd FS waving the #2 honour kingdom SS) is just a strategic error on their part.

Before SS went to war with WsK, we had asked SS for war (on even terms, we would drop down to their acres or give them time to get up to ours) they refused war in a way that made it very clear that they were going to avoid warring us the rest of the age. So no, we weren't going to let them jump into another war with the possibility of them running it out to the end of the age with no chance of us ensuring the crown. Any kingdom in our shoes would do the same. Now, if they had an actual confirmed war with Divinity, and both kingdoms confirmed this and/or tagged their kingdoms as going to war against each other, we would have honoured that, and not hit into the arranged war, as that is a much more actionable offense than "bullying" (put in quotes because I understand you think what we did is bullying, though any top kd monarch will tell you that is not the utopia definition of bullying).

The actual situation is that they saw us intelling them in preparation to wave them, and message us saying to not wave them, and that they "might" be going into a war, and it might be with divinity. Well.. for one, divinity is bigger than us, and you already think we are "bullying" so not sure what your plan with divinity was if not to avoid us. Secondly, you were a kingdom out of eowcf, without a confirmed war, without a CF with terms attached to it, #2 in honour, with Prince T/M's within 105% relative networth to approximately 2/3 of our Undead attackers. Of course we are going to hit you, and of course it is completely legitimate. THAT is the reason the majority of the kd's saw what happened and said we did nothing wrong. THAT is the reason why we werent actioned, and the kingdoms involved in actioning us were actioned on instead PRIMARILY because GB without cause and confirmed Dealbreaking are two ACTIONABLE offenses to the community.

This is a war game, and action and a certain degree of "unfairness" is allowed. We ate waves from other kd's and got CF's out of it all age. Not that we always do that (example settlers being bigger than us and waving us, and we took it to war and secured a major advantage and victory at the 48 hour mark) but every 1v1 conflict without dealbreaking involved is allowed, that is the nature of the game, like it or not. Every time you are waved by a kingdom you have to decide if retaliation is worth it, do a loss assessment, and gauge whether conflict benefits the goals that your kingdom has set out to accomplish in the age. Almost exclusively for any WW/Honour kingdom it is not worth it to escalate a conflict with a kingdom bigger than them. At the same rate, most of those kingdoms in turn probably do unfair attacks and randoms into kingdoms smaller (sometimes much smaller) than them. That is the nature of this game. The biggest mistake new players make in this game is trying to protect the resources of their individual province rather than figuring out what is best for the kingdom as a whole. Doesn't mean you can't take notes on the kingdoms that wave you and CF you. You can then wait for them to go to war, then get into a position where you are stronger than them after the war and (assuming your CF allows for it) retaliate on them in full after their war, or later in the age.

There is a give and get to this game, every kingdom knows it. Sorry this conflict had to escalate to where it did, but we refuse to be wrongfully GB'd. If between ages we have a big discussion as a community and we can agree as a community that hitting a kingdom a certain % smaller than you is bad form and actionable then by all means we won't do it. But GB'ing a kingdom due to a non-actionable offense will be dealt with in force, every time.

I do welcome discussion (in a separate thread) on the creation of a list of actionable offenses, as well as a list of things that are bad form, but not actionable. This would help the community a lot. Also, maybe a thread (stickied) on what is expected in contract CF's and War Agreements, what is binding, and what constitutes the breaking of a war agreement. I suggested it last age too, that maybe a "war agreement form" be drawn up so that any kingdom can keep the same format for war terms, that way it is more black and white on what the breaking of those terms represents, and what aspects of that dealbreak are actionable.

again an excellent post. I don't agree with everything of course. But the thing about discussing acceptable actions and unacceptable action I like. I would also like to caution though. All the rules in the world won't stop foul play. As long as they are people that find loopholes there will be a problem. Those are the people the community needs to watch out for. If you see someone toeing the line let them know you are aware. If it happens frequently I think there should be consequences.

I do think discussing possible war terms is a great idea. I don't think there should be a set format. Every age is different and every kingdom is different, every set up has its perks. While some like long prep times others are set up for the element of surprise. If we make a set rule of what a war agreement has to look like we take the chance of all kingdoms running the same or similar strategy and build.

90% of all cases I think could be prevented if everyone just tried to communicate and use common sense. The taskforce that everyone was so worked up about has so far solved 4 cases and other than 1 hit everything was done by writing mails to get the 2 kingdoms to talk. Once they started talking to each other they all came to a solution quickly. If you(anyone) insist on waving smaller kingdoms and during the wave or hits they send you a message, answer it. Even if you just say"We will finish our wave then we can talk, busy right now". At least the smaller kingdom knows there is an end in sight. Also keep in mind that a lot of monarchs and players new to the game may cause a kingdom to retal more by accident than design. The monarch may have not been online to give a no retal order. Or maybe the order was there and that hot head player retaled anyway. I am not saying you have to ignore all retals, but keep in mind that we all need new players. It's important that we keep the ones we do have.

And most importantly know when enough is enough. If you insist on waving smaller kingdoms and there are no retals then one wave is plenty. There is really no need to do more hits. Waving a smaller kingdom more than once is plain lazyness. There are still plenty of kingdoms to spread out the hurt, you just have to look for them.

I hope FS will follow a diplomacy pattern like jmiedema has demonstrated in the future :)

[lampost]

Jmiedema, real nice post. Agree with large portions of it.

[texn]

jmiedema, u need more Viking juice bro :)

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

And most importantly know when enough is enough. If you insist on waving smaller kingdoms and there are no retals then one wave is plenty. There is really no need to do more hits. Waving a smaller kingdom more than once is plain lazyness. There are still plenty of kingdoms to spread out the hurt, you just have to look for them.

thats exactly what we have been doing, except for a single occasion which was ss & we had very good reasons for it.. you wouldve saved a hell lotta time from entire community if you came to this conclusion anywhere before post #1058..

[lampost]

you wouldve saved a hell lotta time from entire community if you came to this conclusion anywhere before post #1058..

That's extremely unfair. If fs leadership did not have a long recorded history of dbs gb and dh threats and nasty talk then things would have worked out better.

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

That's extremely unfair. If fs leadership did not have a long recorded history of dbs gb and dh threats and nasty talk then things would have worked out better.

delusional too much?

[citadela01]

That's extremely unfair. If fs leadership did not have a long recorded history of dbs gb and dh threats and nasty talk then things would have worked out better.

That is a terrible excuse.
Nothing FS is accused off (notice I didnt said guilty off) is even close to what was attempted against us.

Guilty parties cried wolf and played victim card, but in the end nobody got punished more than they deserved.
Some got away very cheap even.

And guess what, next age when someone starts some drama in forums about FS this affair will be dragged out again as example of FS's db/gb/razing ... and nobody will give a **** 4 kd's jumped on FS and attempted to gb us first.

[MyNameIsMatija]

Yeah boys, what else is new, amirite?

P.S.
I want some of that Viking juice texn!