Canadian Rebellion VS Pandas

[Zauper]

So tired :(

Mil gap appears to be growing. IIRC, it started around 300k, fell to ~200k when we killed the dragon, and is now about 350k.
Peon gap has shrunk since we started hitting with core -- from about 600k in their favor to 550k now. We still have a good chunk more gc than they do, but the coffers are starting to run dry. Their peons appear to be mostly constant now that we're trading hits, while we're gaining some popspace from the trading to start gaining peons.

[Meep]

WTF guys, me and Aranfein are trying to get some drama and arguing up in this thread.

Stop distracting from that with hostile updates.

[Wiliest]

1. Conflicts in general are in the end won by those with raw power more so than mod.
2. Land is finite in top wars, you simply try and get as much military on it as possible.
3. Peasants get FBed anyways, so are useless.

In the ghetto tier a 30K acre KD on 5M might have more potency than a 25K acre KD on 5M, simply because their mods will be higher etc, and you mostly agree war based on NW. In the top the 30K acre KD won't be 5M but 6M, which means they will have more military and will most likely win the conflict.

I understand all of that, but it only takes 1 hit and then your overpopped right? It seems easy to just wave a kd on -ppa and lock all their troops home, thus winning the conflict. How do you get around this issue? Not to mention the entire lack of economy, I'm guessing you stack a bunch of gcs beforehand, but what happens when that gets stolen or FG by the otherside and you can't pay wages? Seems extremely risky, and not worth the extra few mpa.

[beans]

I understand all of that, but it only takes 1 hit and then your overpopped right? It seems easy to just wave a kd on -ppa and lock all their troops home, thus winning the conflict. How do you get around this issue? Not to mention the entire lack of economy, I'm guessing you stack a bunch of gcs beforehand, but what happens when that gets stolen or FG by the otherside and you can't pay wages? Seems extremely risky, and not worth the extra few mpa.

the less peons you have the less vulnerable you are to overpop. Peons you cant get rid of short of having a team mate fb you. thieves you can release to solds n aid out, military you can send to dragon or release and aid. Any of these+ wiz can be released to peon and kept if you ended up feeling like you needed the extra econ ...almost never happens though, why? bc in war ppl always realize raw military is what they need, not peons. Choosing to not train deeper and keep peons is basically the same as releasing for peons for pumping kds that have hundreds of millions stocked.

paying wages and funding dragon? overrated! :P

[topsy's revenge]

Wiliest, the problem is you are only looking at it as if only the ppa is different, while the mpa is the same.

Let's say 1 kd has decent ppa of 4. Another kd has pumped to the gills and is -3. if the -3 prov gets hit once or twice do they overpop? absolutely(atleast if they aren't in fort!). However, let's think about the actual difference in the provs here. Let's say we have 2 humans.

4 ppa one:

Human/Merchant @ 1k a. 75% draft, 4.1ppa, 0ospa, 7dspa, 11epa (99.3opa/83.1dpa) p(59.57 opa/56.15) 3tpa (6.04), 3wpa (6.04)
Sci: 1050 bpa (100|100|200|50|200|200|200) / effect (14|10|9.2|56.6|7.4|84.9|84.9)
Build: 68.5% BE farms 8%, tg 18%, rax 10%, fort 10%, gs 15%, hosps 20%, guilds 7%, towers 3%, wts 15%, dungs 2%
Econ: Inc: 14k gc Wages: -22k gc Sci: -0k gc ToG:8k gc Runes:+1k runes Food: -1,021 bushels

-3 ppa one:
Human/Merchant @ 1k a. 100% draft, -2.9ppa, 0ospa, 10dspa, 15epa (132.3opa/113.3dpa) p(79.36 opa/77.34) 3tpa (6.04), 3wpa (6.04)
Sci: 1050 bpa (100|100|200|50|200|200|200) / effect (14|10|9.2|56.6|7.4|84.9|84.9)
Build: 55% BE farms 8%, tg 18%, rax 10%, fort 10%, gs 15%, hosps 20%, guilds 7%, towers 3%, wts 15%, dungs 2%
Econ: Inc: 0k gc Wages: -31k gc Sci: -0k gc ToG:0k gc Runes:+0k runes Food: -2,207 bushels

Now in these 2 cases we're looking at like 99k offense and 83k home defense on first one and 132k offense on second one and 113k defense all home. In this instance the first prov can't even break the second all home. And even when the second one does hit in, he's still leaving enough defense that he can only be single tapped back, while most likely being able to double once they are out. You are now in a situation where you can kill elitse al home and then be outtrading by 50% hits. Now, do you overpop them if you focus a lot on a few provs? sure. Does the overpop from the 4+ hits that went into high gbp equal the same amount of lost troops/econ space as what you lost from them hitting? not even close. This should al make sense, as prov 1 has like 75% of the elites/dspecs as prov 2.

Now what's more, in the first prov you are still negative income on 200 wages. In effect, neither side is "growing" their economy, so what matters then is the stock and how well the stock is staying alive. if they manage to survive a longtime or force hits somewhere that gives them room the second can use their peon base to grow peons in war or fort, but most likely it just snowballs out of control. Wars in the top snowball super hard due to both sides being pumped no matter what(even 4 ppa would be considered decently deep for most of the game), the drop being much further, and the chains being tighter.

[StratOcastle]

The good thing is you can eyeball this stuff and get pretty close.

Like, I was presented with ratios and I don't know how to calculate them. So I googled it and I saw more than 3 paragraphs. So then I did an Indiana Jones and guesstimated. Presto!

Thank you topsy for the thing there. I can't absorb numbers but I can absorb goals. If you're like me and stink at math don't let it scare you.

[Aranfein]

Thanks for the update Mr.Freesbee ;)

Was it Panda's wave or CR's the last one?

I assume Panda is/has losing/lost their top? while CR has low T/Ms? Seeing Panda has a lot quicker core(Humans vs Avians), wouldnt it be favourable for them to outgain on core for 48hrs and just WD/Re-engage? (like Pyro on FS?).

era - Always nice seeing you playing, where Meep was a scoop for CR, you are none other then a living legend they brought back, cant beat that, though i recommend brushing the dust off :p

Meep Giraffes vs Pandas is hardly fair, Pandas will beat you with bamboo and ride you across the Savanah, dont see Giraffes having feet to hold tools, though they have grinding teeth, perhaps thats enough?

[Zauper]

Thanks for the update Mr.Freesbee ;)

Was it Panda's wave or CR's the last one?

Waves are a bit mixed. They're mid wave right now (armies starting to return). Some of the stuff we've done to prevent the risk of declare-double wave makes it a bit hard to know exactly who's wave it is -- our armies are pretty staggered and folks have split armies, so I think we just made 3 hits into their avians exactly when their troops returned, for example.

I assume Panda is/has losing/lost their top? while CR has low T/Ms?

This is pretty accurate.

Here's their 3 biggest at cfdrop:
candy canes and planes -2,015 -453k | no sleep for you -2,182 -467k | Haters gonna HATE -4,496 -762k

Our 5 are +1667, 2373, 379, 10, and 415a. And down 223k, 378k, 293k, 314k, and 370k nw. That's by size order.

One of our dwarves just razed their two cows that started at 11.7k acres in the same unique -- and they've been turtled the entire time, so eating hits into troops home.

In the flipside, our t/m:
Down between 1223 and 3319a, and 163k nw and 580k nw.

Seeing Panda has a lot quicker core(Humans vs Avians), wouldnt it be favourable for them to outgain on core for 48hrs and just WD/Re-engage? (like Pyro on FS?).

This is certainly an option. However, there are probably some drawbacks for them:
1) We're a merchant kd vs a non-merchant kd. B2B wars generally favor the merchant kd. A mintime WD is good for ~18k acres, or 720 per prov. Our chained provs would be in significantly better shape as a result.
2) Human means elite credits, not spec credits -- also big for having military in a b2b
3) It seems unlikely they could gain enough core acres to create viable threats in a b2b to merchant cows that grow from where we started in this fight -- and still have good wpa defense/etc.
4) It currently is looking like our core might be stronger than theirs. Like I said, kdwide military gap is growing. Their setup is very suicide-oriented; the most dspecs any of their avians have is 66k. Then 55k. Then 45k. Or; they only have 4 of 15 avians with more than 35k dspecs. We're pretty off heavy as well, but we're also more gs/hosp heavy than they are, and our elites are tankier plus we gain off in war.

Then there's this - we've taken count/hit at home with elites home on many of their higher off provs thus far, which really hurts WH attackers.

[jwuzi]

Seeing Panda has a lot quicker core(Humans vs Avians), wouldnt it be favourable for them to outgain on core for 48hrs and just WD/Re-engage? (like Pyro on FS?).

In hostile, they're limited by the amount of hits they can make - and provs in nw range for them have less land (since human nw so high)

In war, humans have +20 OME, which is straight up scary. It's a tricky spot for them for sure.

[Aranfein]

Sounds like they might have dragged hostile a little too long for their setup vs yours, if your account of events is spot on.

True about the b2b but Avians should be able to outhit yours (in speed) fairly well if they have the offense to land as many triple/quads as you do, that said not if they losing it quick by being hit army home.

Yes they would have to outhit and outgain you by a fair margin to do b2b.

[Godly]

I'll post my thoughts on Avians after the conflict is over.

[Zauper]

I'll post my thoughts on Avians after the conflict is over.

hint: godly mad that our top core prov is the ghetto setup prov avian tact.

[Over]

What about panda tms?

Pandas seems to secure their tms, are they ub?

[Felonious]

Giraffes vs Pandas is hardly fair, Pandas will beat you with bamboo and ride you across the Savanah, dont see Giraffes having feet to hold tools, though they have grinding teeth, perhaps thats enough?

Who needs tools when you can decapitate a lion with one kick :P

[Zauper]

Sounds like they might have dragged hostile a little too long for their setup vs yours, if your account of events is spot on.

True about the b2b but Avians should be able to outhit yours (in speed) fairly well if they have the offense to land as many triple/quads as you do, that said not if they losing it quick by being hit army home.

Yes they would have to outhit and outgain you by a fair margin to do b2b.

Pandas probably had to remove our gc before they could declare, which didn't really finish happening until this morning, when they started to be able to use rogue stealth to go after one of our human cows. The issue now is that their kdwide offense is down a lot, which makes it hard to exploit the NS. They have 7 provs left over 800k suicide off (then 1 at 700k and 1 at 600k), and only 3 that can reach 1m (leaving 225k, 421k, and 234k). The human they're NSing atm can send ~550k off and keep 1m def currently.

What about panda tms?
Pandas seems to secure their tms, are they ub?

No, not even close. They're safe vs our core, but our cows -- which have been busy securing the top vs their cows and can now safely send 1m+ off -- can easily break/multitap them.

for example:
Your forces arrive at We Are Legion (top def fae). A tough battle took place, but we have managed a victory! Your army burned and destroyed 442 acres!
We lost 6,633 Berserkers and 6,633 horses in this battle.
We killed about 13,252 enemy troops.
Our forces will be available again in 13.70 days (on March 17 of YR9).