Canadian Rebellion VS Pandas

[Tadpole]

hint: godly mad that our top core prov is the ghetto setup prov avian tact.

Avian tact? Aww. That's cute!! :) ...not optimal for whore wars though, heh. Or any other war for that matter... :p How many you got, and where?

[jwuzi]

Ahem. They have been carrying this clown fiesta of a kd ever since Jan0Yr0

Oh, there are 4 of them. It's cute cause they're faster than Panda avians so they're able to camp army home hits

[era]

Avian tact? Aww. That's cute!! :) ...not optimal for whore wars though, heh. Or any other war for that matter... :p How many you got, and where?

All our avians are tacts. Humans and dwarves are merch

[Wiliest]

Wiliest, the problem is you are only looking at it as if only the ppa is different, while the mpa is the same.

Let's say 1 kd has decent ppa of 4. Another kd has pumped to the gills and is -3. if the -3 prov gets hit once or twice do they overpop? absolutely(atleast if they aren't in fort!). However, let's think about the actual difference in the provs here. Let's say we have 2 humans.

4 ppa one:

Human/Merchant @ 1k a. 75% draft, 4.1ppa, 0ospa, 7dspa, 11epa (99.3opa/83.1dpa) p(59.57 opa/56.15) 3tpa (6.04), 3wpa (6.04)
Sci: 1050 bpa (100|100|200|50|200|200|200) / effect (14|10|9.2|56.6|7.4|84.9|84.9)
Build: 68.5% BE farms 8%, tg 18%, rax 10%, fort 10%, gs 15%, hosps 20%, guilds 7%, towers 3%, wts 15%, dungs 2%
Econ: Inc: 14k gc Wages: -22k gc Sci: -0k gc ToG:8k gc Runes:+1k runes Food: -1,021 bushels

-3 ppa one:
Human/Merchant @ 1k a. 100% draft, -2.9ppa, 0ospa, 10dspa, 15epa (132.3opa/113.3dpa) p(79.36 opa/77.34) 3tpa (6.04), 3wpa (6.04)
Sci: 1050 bpa (100|100|200|50|200|200|200) / effect (14|10|9.2|56.6|7.4|84.9|84.9)
Build: 55% BE farms 8%, tg 18%, rax 10%, fort 10%, gs 15%, hosps 20%, guilds 7%, towers 3%, wts 15%, dungs 2%
Econ: Inc: 0k gc Wages: -31k gc Sci: -0k gc ToG:0k gc Runes:+0k runes Food: -2,207 bushels

Now in these 2 cases we're looking at like 99k offense and 83k home defense on first one and 132k offense on second one and 113k defense all home. In this instance the first prov can't even break the second all home. And even when the second one does hit in, he's still leaving enough defense that he can only be single tapped back, while most likely being able to double once they are out. You are now in a situation where you can kill elitse al home and then be outtrading by 50% hits. Now, do you overpop them if you focus a lot on a few provs? sure. Does the overpop from the 4+ hits that went into high gbp equal the same amount of lost troops/econ space as what you lost from them hitting? not even close. This should al make sense, as prov 1 has like 75% of the elites/dspecs as prov 2.

Now what's more, in the first prov you are still negative income on 200 wages. In effect, neither side is "growing" their economy, so what matters then is the stock and how well the stock is staying alive. if they manage to survive a longtime or force hits somewhere that gives them room the second can use their peon base to grow peons in war or fort, but most likely it just snowballs out of control. Wars in the top snowball super hard due to both sides being pumped no matter what(even 4 ppa would be considered decently deep for most of the game), the drop being much further, and the chains being tighter.

First, thank you for the detailed response, this helped a lot! I still have a couple questions that I hope you could answer.

1. Obviously using those stocks on extra troops rather than for dragons means less dragons during the war. I understand wars at the top are shorter and more focused on acres since war is used as more of a tool to gain acres more than gaining war wins, unlike the rest of the game. Is it still worth pumping to that degree in longer "ghetto" wars that are more win-at-all-costs style, even if it means sacrificing a dragon or 2?

2. Is it still worth pumping to that degree on a solo prov if the rest of the kd only pumps to 3-4ppa? Or does this need to be a kingdom wide pump strat to work? Obviously you would be chained first in war, but you would still hold up in a chain better than a prov who was only pumped to 3-4ppa right?

[topsy's revenge]

it would be pretty hard to pump to -3 ppa in anything outside a top kd. it takes a LOT of stock to afford to draft that deep while still having gc for dragons/wagse. Figure we had about 10kgcpa when we built our homes on all provs and that was a bit cheap for normal pump like this. Getting 10kgcpa without it being robbed or without you getting brutalized for being on high enough ppa to stock it is borderline impossible.

as for the single prov, i'd say it'd be worth it depending on where you were in the kd. if your ub because of it and can't be op'd by anyone then it's definitely worth it. If your 70% the size of their top core, then probably not super worth it.

The game just really changes when you can afford to prep. For most kd's, war is about control peons for the most part. In the top you can afford to draft so deep that if the other guy has any peons he gets roasted, but then both are pretty much dead on econ outside of what they have stocked.

[tetley]

wait jwuzi's foot actually got amputated...??? or....

[Wiliest]

I see, and that's why top kds always complain about gcs disappearing, because they cant draft as deep if they don't have an insane amount. Interesting. But then even getting to extremely low ppa, like 1 ppa, would be better than 3-4ppa right, assuming you had the gcs saved to pay for wages, etc.?

[Godly]

wait jwuzi's foot actually got amputated...??? or....

No he suffered a fractured vagina.

The amount of QQ witnessed from a grown man getting a wart removed was beyond ridiculous.

[StratOcastle]

I see, and that's why top kds always complain about gcs disappearing, because they cant draft as deep if they don't have an insane amount. Interesting. But then even getting to extremely low ppa, like 1 ppa, would be better than 3-4ppa right, assuming you had the gcs saved to pay for wages, etc.?

Yes. It's mostly a diplo based situation. By being larger you reduce the number of wildcards adjacent to your vulnerable position. You don't see many top players take an age off and attempt the same depth in a standard kingdom.

[Band of Horses]

If we had 4 wars this age I would have run out of sitting time. topsy had me come out of retirement as a 'temporary' fill saying I wont have to set alarms and playing wouldn't eat into my sleeping schedule. Up until this recent conflict with Panda's he was right. If we had 4 wars then topsy would have to find another player to play my prov which I think is the real reason we didn't have any wars. ;)

Come on bruh, they try that chit every damn age. People like Squee end up "filling" for 3 ages. Don't ever agree to create a prov and set sitter for 3 weeks at start of age for them, you'll end up crowning. Every age they are like Drake after a break up.

The health of our leaders is rapidly degrading
Mink got super duper sick
Topsy is restricted from electronics for sexytimes
Zauper needed to get his eyes checked - also is lacking super duper sleep
Mango working 16-20hr days to bring in that cash
Jwu almost had his foot amputated but now stuck crying and taking hard drugs to numb his feelings of depression
Vir isn't a leader but he's ugly so I had to put it here
Rens isn't a leader but is afk all day
Oh Goldy is still salty about the troll - so I blame the loss on munk - :goldyrage:

Did you forget to wear your flip flops in the gym shower?


Vir may be bad at this game and a drug addict but he's not ugly, don't be a hater.

No he suffered a fractured vagina.

The amount of QQ witnessed from a grown man getting a wart removed was beyond ridiculous.

It's out of your control, but kicking him from TGK is... Do the right thing.

[era]

I see, and that's why top kds always complain about gcs disappearing, because they cant draft as deep if they don't have an insane amount. Interesting. But then even getting to extremely low ppa, like 1 ppa, would be better than 3-4ppa right, assuming you had the gcs saved to pay for wages, etc.?

Like topsy mentioned, it depends on where your kd / prov is and if the situation would pay off. If there is a solo province that is loaded while the rest of the kd suffers, it might be in the best interest to divide some extra funds across other provinces to help them draft deeper in general. It is one of the reasons why top kd's do not like being robbed / plundered when they look to be 'loaded' due to the cost of drafting down to -2ppa and still having funds for wages/dragons, etc. It's also generally why the smaller provs in the top kd's are worse pumped then the larger ones seeing the large ones are typically well out of range of robs/random plunders which allows higher gcpa for deeper drafts / higher science levels, etc.

[Zauper]

It's worth mentioning that usually when you are drafted that deep (-2 or -3 PPA), kds tend to run their provs as a/t or at least attackers with high (think 4+) raw TPA. This enables them to kidnap as soon as they get pop space, as well -- so if you hit, lose 5% of your mil (call it 1 MPA), then get 10% of your land in, now you're underpop and can use your thieves to acquire peasants from the other kingdom that wasn't as drafted, alleviating one of the weaknesses of the strategy.

Additionally, the war tier isn't like the top tier -- the top tier, conflicts are deciding by timing more than anything. In the war tier, conflicts can easily be backed out of with no/low repurcussions. The net result is that you have to have very similar NWs. This is a drawback of the deep pump strategy; because you're often fighting a kingdom that is significantly larger (in land) as a result. Which means you aren't really gaining as much of a per-prov military advantage as the larger prov will have similar total military counts (less, because they have land nw/etc), but similar.

[Wiliest]

I see, very interesting stuff! Thanks for the in-depth explanation everyone!

[DM_Benjamin]

I see, very interesting stuff! Thanks for the in-depth explanation everyone!

You're welcome, I hope my answers made sense

[Loons]

You're welcome, I hope my answers made sense

They were propro answers Ben!!!