Age 71 Proposed Changes Suggestions

[Goodwitch]

sorry was looking at the wrong window...i stand corrected fae does not have cs either

[Deathlyric]

First off, thank you for taking over UTOPIA. Will be nice to see old time players in the drivers seat instead of rookies who took to much water over there heads.

Second;
Today TMs have damn hard to even reach 200 DPA without 30% Homes and 25% Forts with 90% BE and even then they are EASY targets for attackers thats 600-800 acres lower even.
Playing as an HA this age where Bishop finally listened that HA was underpowered and to easy to break was a bonus, but HA is still not even close to where it should be as an threat for enemy TMs.

Making UDs with 15 Elit off .... wow...
I mean just look at the UD's today and Dwarfs .... We want to make it harder even more for the TMs + make Dwarfs more UB if left alone AND give UDs 2x off then an TM can get? :P
All UD/ DW KD's for the win.

Either A) Hit the UDs down to not let them keep 350 OPA/ prov or B) Kill the Dwarfs slowly since if they are left alone they will be BANKs for dragon fundings and might become UB.
Being an TM with this setup is like "fun first 2-3 wars and after that re-build your acres or be an useless tm rest of the age" :P

Suggestion - Look back and start with an setup that was used when Utopia was at the highest pop and try to go back to elit's with MAX 6-7 off elits.

[Goodwitch]

#NotMyFaeries

I think people are overreacting about offense vs defense and really underreacting to the other ways faery has been gutted

totally agree. they have been reduced to be useful in war only. click a few spells every few hours during war, rest of age pump build sitting and waiting other than when they have to try to explore with income they dont have.

[Deathlyric]

Also UD is by far the easiest race to play since back in the days. It's an Noob race that is really easy to handle.

- No food
- No point to have any high TPA
- Keep a standard growth on ur WPA since you won't stop a TM a lot with this race any way.
- 9% Farms early game and 4-5% end game farms that you can use as more TDs/ Barracks or MORE WTs vs an T heavy KD.
- Draft high amount of elits for bringing down enemy's
- Army in and out during war only, that even a kid can do.
- See you online every 8-12H for 4-5x hits on targets.

Monkey see, Monkey do.

[Deathlyric]

Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
#NotMyFaeries

I think people are overreacting about offense vs defense and really underreacting to the other ways faery has been gutted
totally agree. they have been reduced to be useful in war only. click a few spells every few hours during war, rest of age pump build sitting and waiting other than when they have to try to explore with income they dont have."


Agree 100%. All our TMs have been more or less just sitting INACTIVE after war, oow, fort and becoming active during war again (6-8 days later)
Since WARs are so damn hard to get, since you get 0 rewards from winning them, so why bother when you can just do something else.

[Alleria]

Slayerviper - I hope you stick around to see the Final Changes. Based on some of your comments I feel you may have not seen the revised changes, so I encourage you to look at the 2nd post to see some revisions that have been made to the original proposed changes.

Couple things to point out:
I certainly disagree that we will see an UD server. UD will be much tougher to play as well as is popularly believed on the forums at the present time.
The gains formula tweak (if implemented this age) will certainly not promote bottom feeding, in fact our aim with the formula will be just the contrary (although I don't expect anyone to understand how the formula will work based on a simple example given to illustrate a specific aspect of a very complex formula).
Persain has presented some good numbers that actually show relative nw provinces of the same size will not be able to hit a t/m more than once, so I don't quite understand the theory that every attacker will quad a t/m.
The simple statement that 'sage is weak' is not very compelling, and I would simply argue that you are mistaken and be content that our discussion is over based on the depth of content in our arguments :)

Mystics can't maintain a high wpa when wizards are untrainable. 2-3 massacres and their wpa is ****. Rogues can recover as they gain more stealth per tick as well as being able to train their thieves. Please explain how a mystic will be able to compare with being breakable and not being able to manage a high wpa. and if orc stays this way yes you will see lots of ud and less orcs

[Crazyguy]

Dwarf is nerfed. Almost unusable as attacker. Really only good as a NW whore. Adding a defensive version of pitfalls, (fog, previously suggested) would make it usable as a bank or NW whore. Otherwise, we won't be using Dwarf at all in KoE.

[jmiedema]

First off, thank you for taking over UTOPIA. Will be nice to see old time players in the drivers seat instead of rookies who took to much water over there heads.

Second;
Today TMs have damn hard to even reach 200 DPA without 30% Homes and 25% Forts with 90% BE and even then they are EASY targets for attackers thats 600-800 acres lower even.
Playing as an HA this age where Bishop finally listened that HA was underpowered and to easy to break was a bonus, but HA is still not even close to where it should be as an threat for enemy TMs.

Making UDs with 15 Elit off .... wow...
I mean just look at the UD's today and Dwarfs .... We want to make it harder even more for the TMs + make Dwarfs more UB if left alone AND give UDs 2x off then an TM can get? :P
All UD/ DW KD's for the win.

Either A) Hit the UDs down to not let them keep 350 OPA/ prov or B) Kill the Dwarfs slowly since if they are left alone they will be BANKs for dragon fundings and might become UB.
Being an TM with this setup is like "fun first 2-3 wars and after that re-build your acres or be an useless tm rest of the age" :P

Suggestion - Look back and start with an setup that was used when Utopia was at the highest pop and try to go back to elit's with MAX 6-7 off elits.

Not sure what T/M's your kd ran, but as fae/ro i was running about 230 dpa every war for the entire second half of the age (after maxing military sci) I usually started about 8-10 largest prov in the kd, and I think I was healthily unbreakable after about 8-12h every war.

By the changes I've seen I don't see that changing... Attackers should and will be able to break similar sized, similarly pumped T/M's early in war, and if left alone T/M's will 1 by 1 become unbreakable by mid war. I don't see this as a flaw. It presents an interesting strategic choice at the start of every war.

Rogues will not have to deal with much CS this age, so unless UD go tact (not war hero) then halfer/rogues (who have 8/0 off spec) will be able to prop all those nice, juicy, high prop gains, undead offspecs they will be forced to have.

Orc hits you for lots and kills lots, but also gets hit extremely hard and loses tons of troops too.

I think people are getting hung up on pure military numbers alone, and not seeing how some of these negative effects actually play out in war, and looking at the larger scheme of these changes.

[Deathlyric]

Dwarf is nerfed. Almost unusable as attacker. Really only good as a NW whore. Adding a defensive version of pitfalls, (fog, previously suggested) would make it usable as a bank or NW whore. Otherwise, we won't be using Dwarf at all in KoE.

Our Dwarfs has been Dragon banks all this age, never been targetted and we have been unbeaten this age. Our Dwarfs has been the difference between winning and loosing. So don't agree with you.

[Persain]

I seriously can't fathom how to suggest adjusting some of these changes. I see little reason to have t/m's and people are saying Ud can be controlled through ops? What happens when you have a core of them and 2-3 t/m's are dead after one wave... k.

Not that it matters, but I've really been struggling to want to play this game for awhile now. This will probably be the nail in the coffin. I guess they want new players to be effective in the game so even if they have no clue on how to play or manage a prov they can smash anything that moves.

2000 acre t/m being single taped by lets say orc/undead. If the enemy has 20 of them...how many t/m's do i lose in one wave?
answer 1. It takes 16 hilts to take a 2000 acre t/m into low enough land than u can spare off mass

2000*.9^16=370 that t/m should then be able to LL about 20 times for an average of 10 acres per LL and move to 570 acres. just enough to function as a chain finisher and not be 0 def.

The enemy then has 4 attackers left to chain with and a few spare armies so they can likely drop 1 attacker as well. 4*3=12+6 or so extra hits takes the attacker down to <300 and is "Finished"


If i was triple/quad taping with the same 20 orc/undead how many attackers can i chain? (i saw triple/quad because with only hitting attackers its likely a few end up on super low def)

answer 4. 20 orc/undead provide 60-80 armies and at say 16 hits per chain i can easily down 4 attackers. 4*16=64<<80. If your saying trading 1 t/m for 3 attackers is a bad move and completely destroys the game then your missing something

[Deathlyric]

Not sure what T/M's your kd ran, but as fae/ro i was running about 230 dpa every war for the entire second half of the age (after maxing military sci) I usually started about 8-10 largest prov in the kd, and I think I was healthily unbreakable after about 8-12h every war.

By the changes I've seen I don't see that changing... Attackers should and will be able to break similar sized, similarly pumped T/M's early in war, and if left alone T/M's will 1 by 1 become unbreakable by mid war. I don't see this as a flaw. It presents an interesting strategic choice at the start of every war.

Rogues will not have to deal with much CS this age, so unless UD go tact (not war hero) then halfer/rogues (who have 8/0 off spec) will be able to prop all those nice, juicy, high prop gains, undead offspecs they will be forced to have.

Orc hits you for lots and kills lots, but also gets hit extremely hard and loses tons of troops too.

I think people are getting hung up on pure military numbers alone, and not seeing how some of these negative effects actually play out in war, and looking at the larger scheme of these changes.

I ran 13 RTPA (Most of the wars, sometimes more)
5-6 RWPA
77% Draft
BE (80-85%)

30% Homes
5% Farms
25% TDs
5% Guilds
25% Towers
20% Forts

150% Wages on pre-war, 180% wages early war.
Had about 190-195 DPA.

Rogues and HA have lower Def then FA mate, + i really need high RTPA to break the enemy FA's ;)

[Bananamancer2000]

-35℅ sci is crazy, it's a negative sage bonus. Sage was the most picked personality this age... Do people think UD race bonuses this age are that strong? I don't think they are, time will tell.

[Slayerviper]

Slayerviper - I hope you stick around to see the Final Changes. Based on some of your comments I feel you may have not seen the revised changes, so I encourage you to look at the 2nd post to see some revisions that have been made to the original proposed changes.

Couple things to point out:
I certainly disagree that we will see an UD server. UD will be much tougher to play as well as is popularly believed on the forums at the present time.
The gains formula tweak (if implemented this age) will certainly not promote bottom feeding, in fact our aim with the formula will be just the contrary (although I don't expect anyone to understand how the formula will work based on a simple example given to illustrate a specific aspect of a very complex formula).
Persain has presented some good numbers that actually show relative nw provinces of the same size will not be able to hit a t/m more than once, so I don't quite understand the theory that every attacker will quad a t/m.
The simple statement that 'sage is weak' is not very compelling, and I would simply argue that you are mistaken and be content that our discussion is over based on the depth of content in our arguments :)

I have seen the 2nd post unless you didn't update the numbers with the text comment. Essentially all attackers (except dorf) have more offence to break t/ms. I never said anything about quadding t/m's I said double. A pure ospec UD army can break a t/m easy, now throw in say a conservative estimate of a 60/40 spec to leet army, you should be able to double a t/m when you get plague from your first hit. I can generate a lot of numbers (its what I do for a living) as well and ofc make them support my case (thats why numbers aren't great facts). I can tell you that from experience its been easier than ever to break t/ms and all your doing is making all attackers have more offence. If the idea is for them to run more D because they have more O, this is counter intuitive with current mechanics as t/m's can get rid of the defence of a prov VERY easily... and attackers will get chained its inevitable so... if your a 500 acre prov that can still break a t/m throw in a massacre then get get your easy max gains. Or you know shore up your defence and when you get chained you become useless and still fed on by t/ms.

I think its fair to say that 180-200 dpa is normal T/M goal (for average players)... in the current age its also very easy to hit 220-250 opa. All your doing is making the opa go higher next age.

Fair enough on the formula, its basic example is misleading as you are aware.

It's easy enough to max sci now, sure you making it take a little longer and now giving sages less protection... how is this good? I should have said why they nerf not weak, so I apologise for that.

[Coldhearted]

Dwarf sages where really good this age. But sage got nerf ed and dwarf lost cs. But it doesn't make dwarf worthless as a race. Just change up how they are used. As of right now undead is just crazy strong and no kingdom won't run at least some undead. Orc took a major nerf and is basically unplayable now. I am not one to complain but I don't understand the point of increasing offensive numbers every age. It doesn't make the game more fun or even have more strategy involved. I don't get it but I will adapt and work with anything.

[Avenger]

-35℅ sci is crazy, it's a negative sage bonus. Sage was the most picked personality this age... Do people think UD race bonuses this age are that strong? I don't think they are, time will tell.

My sims say otherwise. With max sci human barely overtakes undead. And then it's like a bit more off and QF vs -75% off losses, perma AD, plague. Not a hard choice.