Israel, it's about time!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nemo

Alexander fell victim to a Nihilist plot.

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Nihilists aren't really indicative of what is acceptable of a culture, since they are the epitome of counter-culture. Plus, it was a one time occurrence. Plus, Eastern Eurasia is not the west. They are the second world. They are non individualist eastern societies, (hence, Communism.)

The VAST majority of suicide bombings is done by muslim nations. Even if we include individual exceptions. Can we agree on that at least?

They think its a quick way to go to heaven, even though no mention of the virgins given afterward are claimed in the Quran.

When you have ignorance and poverty on that level, muslims are going to cling to their bombs and their religion, (ha ha....).

If I were an impoverished idiot I would want to go to some perfect afterlife as fast as I could. Especially when its saturated in muslim media starting from childhood.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55582

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40967

I still dont understand why the palestinians do not take back 75% of thier land that is now Jordan?

I can understand the claim to a shared Jerusalem on religious beliefs,but in fact the palestinian jews were there from the start too,so my solution would be for the PLO and Israeli's to sign a pact of war against Jordan to take thier annexed land back from Jordan.That would be 75% of the original Palestinian land given back to Palestinian Arabs.

Israel can sign over thier share of the recaptured land to the new state of Palistine and the PLO can give the entire west bank and Gaza to Israeil ,with a international right for all countries and religions to share the city of Jerusalem ie:a middle east Vatican City shared by Muslims and Jews and Christians for ever ans always!

1) Egyptian officials have made a point of repeatedly telling the arab world that it was Hamas who were to blame for breaking the ceasefire, and that israeli action is justified

2) Hamas took over Gaza in a military coup, killing a great many of their own people and made tentative peace into war.

3) Hamas is an islamic extremist group officially recognized as a terrorist organization

4) Hamas deliberately targets civilians and makes no show of hiding this. On its 'manifesto' is an item declaring their intention of throwing all israelis into the sea and never recognizing israel as a nation.

5) Hamas has been using almost all of its funding to smuggle weapons into the gaza strip, rather than attempting to lift palestinians from their state of abject poverty and general illiteracy.
But then what else can you expect from an extremist islamic terrorist organization when it violently assumes control.

6) Hamas is recorded and known to use palestinian children as meat-shields, launch rockets from residential areas, store munitions in mosques, hijack and use hospitals for transport and basically violate any rule of engagement and basic common sense, if common sense calls for the protection of your people.




Personally I think it's self evident that Israel was/is going for a peaceful solution of 2 states for 2 peoples. It gave its land to the palestinians and told them they can live there while palestinians were slaughtered by the tens of thousands by their muslim cousins and driven away from jordan, etc (which is originally where the great majority of 'palestinians' were situated).
The problem is that when you got a mass of uneducated unwashed people in abject poverty, any idiot who wants to assume power for the sake of power knows that the best way to do so is to point a finger and say "its all THEIR fault".
Someone responsible and moderate would have built schools, universities, factories and parks rather than import thousands and thousands of rockets and fire them from residential areas at residential areas.
This of course they need to do in order for the "it's all THEIR fault" ruse to work, since they can't afford to appear malleable.

And so a great many people die for a terrorist group to stay in power, though they have no intention of using that power for the benefit of their people, as is clearly evident.

Perhaps there is still hope ,at least the children still know the truth.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wYHV...eature=related

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mourhelm

Firstly, I asked for an example of suicide bombing, not suicide attacks.

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The attack on the Tsar was a suicide bombing.

Quote:

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Secondly, the target has everything to do with it. If you attack the military you might save the lives of your fellow countrymen. The motivation for the sacrifice you make is to help save other lives.

Bombing a military installation makes much more sense and is much more acceptable.

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I was merely dictating the terms of the argument. You wanted examples, I provided.

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I agree it doesn't guarantee you value life more than death. But if you have no option other than suicide, and you present your motivation for the suicide bombing is to save lives, I'll believe you value life more than death. Of course you also need to stop hiding within civilian population and use them as human shields.

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In their eyes, this is a war. Their only means of protection, since they don't have patriot missiles to save them from the F-16s, is to hide inside the civilian population. It's guerilla warfare. They fight, the people protect them. To the palestinians, they are freedom fighters.

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I think it does matter because it is much harder to negotiate peace with someone that only cares about your death and doesn't care about its people's lives.

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I thought you were referring to the actual suicide bombers. Not the leaders.

Snugglesoft and the rest:

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The VAST majority of suicide bombings is done by muslim nations. Even if we include individual exceptions. Can we agree on that at least?

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Yes, we can.

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They think its a quick way to go to heaven, even though no mention of the virgins given afterward are claimed in the Quran.

When you have ignorance and poverty on that level, muslims are going to cling to their bombs and their religion, (ha ha....).

If I were an impoverished idiot I would want to go to some perfect afterlife as fast as I could.

---

That, I'm afraid, is the effect of the brainwashing they receive. They don't know any better, cause they haven't been taught any better.

See, this is like the dark ages for Islam. There's very little education. Very little knowledge about what their religion really is. In the middle ages, it consisted of civilized countries that valued education, knowledge, science and arts. Of course, in every religion there are extremists. And they would've never had this much power had it not been for the West's foolishness. Even liberal Muslims are starting to doubt the West's sincerity now. Why? Because the West has given the extremists a cause.

See, they think this is all a conspiracy by the Christian and Jewish worlds, who don't want the Muslims to prosper as they once had. Before the British took over India, the divide between Muslims and Hindus wasn't as glaring. Blinded by their Imperialist hatred, the Brits divided the Indian subcontinent. They created Israel. They created conflict zones, where a normal childhood, normal education was not possible. They created a breeding ground for terrorists. Then they supported Israel with whatever they got. The extremists rejoiced.

When the impoverished kids, living in the middle of a war zone, grew up watching people starve and die everyday, what did they hear? "Oh, this is a tactic to keep us under their feet. Their fancy speeches are lies [bigshot political leaders in the middle eastern neighbourhood routinely turning up dead, didn't help Mossad and CIAs popularity, even if in certain cases, evidence pointed elsewhere]. They want to take revenge for losing the crusade." When George Bush, the idiot of the century, actually mentioned the word crusade, all hell broke loose in the Muslim conscious. Every action you have taken, every step you think you've moved forward, you've taken things from bad to worse. Every bomb dropped in Gaza, every missile attack into Pakistan, feeds those flames. You gave the extremists the background, the cause and the direction to point fingers. And things are all f'cked up now.

If things had not headed this way, we might have had more peaceful, liberal muslim countries, like Algeria, Tunisia, Turkey, Morocco, Bangladesh. But that future is screwed. I don't know how this mess can be solved. But bombing Gaza sure as hell ain't helping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

Nemo, the palestinians want -67 borders. Hamas offered it many times, but Israel refused. And Israel will NEVER give up Jerusalem, they want it all.

And the reason why USA supports Israel, is because american presidents are bribed by jews in usa. Well, americans don't call it bribe, but in norway, paying the president for services like that, is a bribe. Corruption.

Also, did you know that the ISRAELI JEW that Obama has as chief of staff is suspected to be Mossad's leader in North America? And why on earth are Israelis that high up in the government? He doesn't want what's best for usa, he wants what's best for Israel.

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stoffi, what do you call the people that pay Hamas? oh yeah, Iran, theran, iyetollah..they are not corrupt, they are just cleansing the world of us infidels..leave them alone and lets all hate jews like stoffi you hitler azzkizzer

The Irish did not use suicide bombs, true, they just used bombs. They did target civilian targets, including pubs. The crux of the argument being, the IRA gave warning before a bomb went off. In general they did not wish to kill, but would do so if their threats were not taken sufficiently serious.

I am fed up of reading about hostilities. I am fed up of watching the UN be incapable of stopping at a traffic let alone capable of stopping military action. Following the Georgie crisis with Russia was bad enough, and no doubt Georgia was not 100% innocent in that, but they still were in a David and Goliath situation and there were no slings/stones.
Israel and Palenstine have issues - agreed. The UN is a waste of space. The USA is riddled with Jews who pressurise politics into doing what's best for Israel. Give them credit, very cunning, but i get so bored of watching Israel get away with military action because AMERICA looks the other way. I also get fed up that anti semitism even comes up in debates as an accusation... just cause you criticise doesn't mean you're antisemitic. In a way, the Middle East has always been fked with by Europe, specifially France and England, and the USA. You can understand their outrage, but you cannot condone suicide bombing designed to do the most damage possible. I was in London for 7/7 and it is days like that you can understand why people want to hit back, but where does it get you? Nowhere. It just gets you more dead lying in the streets. Beg the UN for peacekeepers, if any of them get hurt, then it will be a new ball game. At the minute it's like two squabbling children that have bunked off school.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nemo

The attack on the Tsar was a suicide bombing.

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But it was not a wide spread tactic of Poland and it was not in a western country (east Europe is eastern...).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nemo

In their eyes, this is a war. Their only means of protection, since they don't have patriot missiles to save them from the F-16s, is to hide inside the civilian population. It's guerilla warfare. They fight, the people protect them. To the palestinians, they are freedom fighters.

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They are not only hiding inside civilian population, they operate from withing the population (for example, they launch rockets from schools). According to international law, the responsibility for civilian deaths is theirs, because of this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nemo

I thought you were referring to the actual suicide bombers. Not the leaders.

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I was referring to both. I think it's kind of obvious that if you bomb civilians you value their death more than your own life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nemo

That, I'm afraid, is the effect of the brainwashing they receive. They don't know any better, cause they haven't been taught any better.

See, this is like the dark ages for Islam. There's very little education. Very little knowledge about what their religion really is. In the middle ages, it consisted of civilized countries that valued education, knowledge, science and arts. Of course, in every religion there are extremists. And they would've never had this much power had it not been for the West's foolishness. Even liberal Muslims are starting to doubt the West's sincerity now. Why? Because the West has given the extremists a cause.

See, they think this is all a conspiracy by the Christian and Jewish worlds, who don't want the Muslims to prosper as they once had. Before the British took over India, the divide between Muslims and Hindus wasn't as glaring. Blinded by their Imperialist hatred, the Brits divided the Indian subcontinent. They created Israel. They created conflict zones, where a normal childhood, normal education was not possible. They created a breeding ground for terrorists. Then they supported Israel with whatever they got. The extremists rejoiced.

When the impoverished kids, living in the middle of a war zone, grew up watching people starve and die everyday, what did they hear? "Oh, this is a tactic to keep us under their feet. Their fancy speeches are lies [bigshot political leaders in the middle eastern neighbourhood routinely turning up dead, didn't help Mossad and CIAs popularity, even if in certain cases, evidence pointed elsewhere]. They want to take revenge for losing the crusade." When George Bush, the idiot of the century, actually mentioned the word crusade, all hell broke loose in the Muslim conscious. Every action you have taken, every step you think you've moved forward, you've taken things from bad to worse. Every bomb dropped in Gaza, every missile attack into Pakistan, feeds those flames. You gave the extremists the background, the cause and the direction to point fingers. And things are all f'cked up now.

If things had not headed this way, we might have had more peaceful, liberal muslim countries, like Algeria, Tunisia, Turkey, Morocco, Bangladesh. But that future is screwed. I don't know how this mess can be solved. But bombing Gaza sure as hell ain't helping.

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So lets say it's all the UK's fault - It doesn't help us at all.

What they believe does not justify what they are doing. If anything, it calls for the world to intervene and take control of Gaza (get an Arab/Muslim country like Malaysia or Saudi Arabia to do it), educate the population and work to build their own country instead of concentrating on the destruction of Israel.

Bombing Gaza is hardly a long term solution, but it is a course of action taken after eight years of continuous fire of rockets on Israeli cities.

I don't know where you live, but I doubt you'll agree to live in terror of rockets fired on your city (even if the enemy is out gunned and brainwashed).

IF YOU LIVE IN PALESTINE AND HAMAS BUILDS AN AMMO DUMP UNDER YOUR APARTMENT BUILDING...you better move before it gets bombed.

hamas is using human shields.
when planes take out ammo dumps or a rocket pad, it might be next door.

Hamas puts military installations near civilian residence for a reason.
that reason is to create public disapproval for israel action. But that is OK because the palestinians that lived on that ammo dump died for allah!


US and israel will aid and protect the Palestinian people without religious opression and propaganda.

Iran, and Hamas only care about the Palestinian people so far as they are weapons that change public opinion about israel and the palestinians are a tool to use in their holy war and jihad.



you infidels better wake up and read that,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1eye

IF YOU LIVE IN PALESTINE AND HAMAS BUILDS AN AMMO DUMP UNDER YOUR APARTMENT BUILDING...you better move before it gets bombed.

hamas is using human shields.
when planes take out ammo dumps or a rocket pad, it might be next door.

Hamas puts military installations near civilian residence for a reason.
that reason is to create public disapproval for israel action. But that is OK because the palestinians that lived on that ammo dump died for allah!


US and israel will aid and protect the Palestinian people without religious opression and propaganda.

Iran, and Hamas only care about the Palestinian people so far as they are weapons that change public opinion about israel and the palestinians are a tool to use in their holy war and jihad.



you infidels better wake up and read that,

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Hamas has no place to go, and they don't use human shields. Israel on the other hand, has many times used palestinians as human shields when entering houses of suspected militants. They pick out a random palestinian, and let him enter the house at gunpoint. This has lead to a few deaths.


Btw, 46% of all the wounded are women and children. 24% of the dead are women and children.
Today Israel bombed a market place, and killed a mother and her 4 children, injuring dozens of civilians.
How do you explain this? It's a massacre, it's state terrorism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1eye

IF YOU LIVE IN PALESTINE AND HAMAS BUILDS AN AMMO DUMP UNDER YOUR APARTMENT BUILDING...you better move before it gets bombed.

hamas is using human shields.
when planes take out ammo dumps or a rocket pad, it might be next door.

Hamas puts military installations near civilian residence for a reason.
that reason is to create public disapproval for israel action. But that is OK because the palestinians that lived on that ammo dump died for allah!


US and israel will aid and protect the Palestinian people without religious opression and propaganda.

Iran, and Hamas only care about the Palestinian people so far as they are weapons that change public opinion about israel and the palestinians are a tool to use in their holy war and jihad.



you infidels better wake up and read that,

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Also, USA is a much more religious society than the palestinians in the west bank. I guess you didn't know that.


Plus, how can you blame Hamas for the massacres? If your father hits you, is it his fault if you kill him for it?
If someone beats you up, is it your right to knock on his door and shoot him later?

Ofc not. YOU are responsible, and ISRAEL is responsible for their own actions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1eye

stoffi, what do you call the people that pay Hamas? oh yeah, Iran, theran, iyetollah..they are not corrupt, they are just cleansing the world of us infidels..leave them alone and lets all hate jews like stoffi you hitler azzkizzer

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No, I call them jews, Knesset, Prime minister. Did you know Israel funded Hamas? Not anymore, but Hamas is strong BECAUSE of Israel, they wanted to split the palestinians and they wanted a weaker PLO.

Also, did you know that Iran is the country in the middle east that has the most jews except for Israel? About 50k jews live there, in peace and harmony.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mystarria

The USA is riddled with Jews who pressurise politics into doing what's best for Israel. Give them credit, very cunning, but i get so bored of watching Israel get away with military action because AMERICA looks the other way.

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You give AMERICA way too much credit. You also make it sound like there are no other opinions in America.

There are plenty of Israel haters in America and plenty of Palestinian lovers and more America lovers than both together. Each pushes for it's own direction.

I assume you live in America because you seem to think that only America has a voice in this world. According to you, the other parts have no voice what-so-ever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mystarria

I also get fed up that anti semitism even comes up in debates as an accusation... just cause you criticise doesn't mean you're antisemitic.

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I totally agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mystarria

In a way, the Middle East has always been fked with by Europe, specifially France and England, and the USA. You can understand their outrage, but you cannot condone suicide bombing designed to do the most damage possible.

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Of course I can condone suicide bombings aimed at civilians. You can do it too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mystarria

I was in London for 7/7 and it is days like that you can understand why people want to hit back, but where does it get you? Nowhere. It just gets you more dead lying in the streets. Beg the UN for peacekeepers, if any of them get hurt, then it will be a new ball game. At the minute it's like two squabbling children that have bunked off school.

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Look at the history. There was a joint french-USA UN force in Lebanon. It was changed after it was bombed by Hizbulla (IIRC).

UN peacekeepers are worthless. The UN is worthless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

Hamas has no place to go, and they don't use human shields.

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Yes they do. There's no point talking to you if you can't agree on facts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

Israel on the other hand, has many times used palestinians as human shields when entering houses of suspected militants. They pick out a random palestinian, and let him enter the house at gunpoint. This has lead to a few deaths.

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It's true it happen in the past in order to protect Israeli soldiers. Our supreme court ordered the military to stop that activity and it has.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

Btw, 46% of all the wounded are women and children. 24% of the dead are women and children.

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You are so biased you don't even bother showing the Israeli death statistics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

Today Israel bombed a market place, and killed a mother and her 4 children, injuring dozens of civilians.
How do you explain this? It's a massacre, it's state terrorism.

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All I can say about that is that Hamas should stop hiding their ammo in market places.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

Plus, how can you blame Hamas for the massacres? If your father hits you, is it his fault if you kill him for it?

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Of course your father is responsible for your death if he kills someone and then hides behind you for protection. He shouldn't use his children as meat shield!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

If someone beats you up, is it your right to knock on his door and shoot him later?

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No, it's not your right. There is a police for that.

It's too bad that Hamas Kills people and not only beats them up.

since i was a young boy, my grandparents read to me a my parents taught me and the bible teaches me to love thy enemy.
walk the path of the god while you are alive and have a chance to make a difference, fighting will not get you there.


love thine enemy




i read the Koran,
it told me to kill people that try to attack or denounce Allah
it told me to kill anyone that changes their religion other than islam
the koran teaches that you will be killed and you will never see heaven unless you live and die for allah because this prophet is the greatest forever.



i just want everyone who reads this to know that i love you and jesus loves you no matter what you believe, and no matter how you act, you will be forgiven in the eyes of the lord if you repent and try to make things better. we are mortals and we make mistakes. our father in heaven understands this and he is a kind god. that is what i believe


i am not a religious man, i do not preech, but i just wanted everyone to know the alternatives. the problem is when your government or your ayetolla burns all the books, and controlls your knowledge. i guess some people know no different, and they attack what is different because that is what they have learned. we must love and forgive them, but we cannot let them lauch rockets at us either. let us live a great new year, and remember that there are many people enduring loss at this time , we must love and support them

"women and children" is not a valid claim.

The terrorist organization known as HAMAS trains women to be suicide bombers. The news happily categorizes anyone under 18"children", except Hamas also trains 14-17 year olds as suicide bombers and front line fighters.
One HAMAS leader (who was killed by israel a couple of days ago) sent his own kid son to be a suicide bomber..



That is not to say that innocent civilians aren't hurt. they are, which is horrible and sad.
But when israeli civilians are hurt its because hamas fired a rocket with the intention of killing them. when palestinians do it's generally because hamas cynically used them as cover and camoflague.

Get it, hamas is a tool of iran. They care nothing for the benefit of palestinian people, who are tools and cover for them.
Or they wouldn't have taken over gaza in a brutal military coup, and wouldn't have used all their power and funding to smuggle in rockets and mortar shells instead of building parks, residence, schools and so on.

Then you have to ask, how is it that the West Bank, another area ceded to palestinian control by Israel, ISN'T shooting rockets at civilians targets in Israel?

Quote:

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i just want everyone who reads this to know that i love you and jesus loves you no matter what you believe, and no matter how you act, you will be forgiven in the eyes of the lord if you repent and try to make things better. we are mortals and we make mistakes. our father in heaven understands this and he is a kind god. that is what i believe

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I just wanted to say "LOL".

Quote:

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It's too bad that Hamas Kills people and not only beats them up.

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I think what Stoffi was trying to illustrate is that there is a big difference between the actions of Hamas (rockets) and Israel. The response is very disproportionate, in terms of civilian casualties and terror I think that Israel's actions are the worst act of terrorism.

Quote:

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Then you have to ask, how is it that the West Bank, another area ceded to palestinian control by Israel, ISN'T shooting rockets at civilians targets in Israel?

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It could be because the west bank isn't under siege and being starved.

Edit:

Quote:

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They are not only hiding inside civilian population, they operate from withing the population (for example, they launch rockets from schools). According to international law, the responsibility for civilian deaths is theirs, because of this.

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Forgot to ask about this, exactly where in "international law" is this stated? It sounds to me like something made up to lessen the burden that civilian casualties has on the inventor's mind.

If you strike a target knowing that there's a risk/certitude that civilians will be killed you decide that striking the target is worth the civilian casualties. Using a reasoning that says that civilian deaths aren't the responsibility of the one who actually does the aggression against them would mean that you could nuke gaza and still claim that it was hamas's fault...

Lets make it a nationalpark, where desert animals can live while no people can.

War has been upon the area for 2000 years.... and it will continue for 2 more as long as there is religion.


i like desertfoxes, they have big ears.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lightzy

"women and children" is not a valid claim.

The terrorist organization known as HAMAS trains women to be suicide bombers. The news happily categorizes anyone under 18"children", except Hamas also trains 14-17 year olds as suicide bombers and front line fighters.
One HAMAS leader (who was killed by israel a couple of days ago) sent his own kid son to be a suicide bomber..



That is not to say that innocent civilians aren't hurt. they are, which is horrible and sad.
But when israeli civilians are hurt its because hamas fired a rocket with the intention of killing them. when palestinians do it's generally because hamas cynically used them as cover and camoflague.

Get it, hamas is a tool of iran. They care nothing for the benefit of palestinian people, who are tools and cover for them.
Or they wouldn't have taken over gaza in a brutal military coup, and wouldn't have used all their power and funding to smuggle in rockets and mortar shells instead of building parks, residence, schools and so on.

Then you have to ask, how is it that the West Bank, another area ceded to palestinian control by Israel, ISN'T shooting rockets at civilians targets in Israel?

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You obviously know very little of Hamas. Hamas have built a huuuuge amount of schools and welfare institutions for the civilian population of palestine, that's part of the reason why they are so popular. But once something nice gets built, Israel bombs it away.
I suggest you get your facts straight before posting bs like this.


And according to your logic, any child COULD grow up to be a suicide bomber, and therefore must be killed.

Bombing Gaza won't stop the rockets, quite on the contrary.

And btw, it was Israel who made Hamas start firing rockets again, since Israel kept bombing Hamas in the shadows. Hamas got sick of this, and decided to respond. But your media won't talk much about that.

And injuring 1500 children/women and killing 100 kids vs a few rockets in the desert and a few killed is just plain wrong. The real terrorist here is Israel. Just today they bombed a market and killed 20 ppl. Even if there was a hamas leader in that market, Israel shoulldn't have bombed. Israel is a racist, apartheid state which believes their race is superior to others because they supposedly are chosen by a god not that many believe in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

I just wanted to say "LOL".
.

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do you really say "LOL"?

I just did in that part you're quoting didn't I?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1eye

i read the Koran,
it told me to kill people that try to attack or denounce Allah
it told me to kill anyone that changes their religion other than islam
the koran teaches that you will be killed and you will never see heaven unless you live and die for allah because this prophet is the greatest forever.

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You are a bigger dolt than I thought. There's a line in Surah Al-Kafirun: For you, your religion, and for me, my religion.[link:http://www.ahadees.com/english-surah-109.html]

Did you know that there were people of different religions living under the protection of the prophet when he took over Mecca? Guess not. Ever heard of Sufism, the fakirs? Those who believe that everything is created from God's light and thus nothing shall stay forever in hell and in the end, hell shall be destroyed for it will have no purpose? Guess not.

Those liberals are still there. But you screwed up there chances.

No religion is perfect though.

Mournhelm:

Quote:

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So lets say it's all the UK's fault - It doesn't help us at all.

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Of course it doesn't. Neither does bombing Gaza.

Quote:

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What they believe does not justify what they are doing. If anything, it calls for the world to intervene and take control of Gaza (get an Arab/Muslim country like Malaysia or Saudi Arabia to do it), educate the population and work to build their own country instead of concentrating on the destruction of Israel.

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Have you forgotten? Osama Bin Laden was Saudi. The extremists Muslims are more pronounced in the Middle East, thanks to the reasons I highlighted before. And other Muslim countries don't really like Israel much either.

Quote:

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I don't know where you live, but I doubt you'll agree to live in terror of rockets fired on your city (even if the enemy is out gunned and brainwashed).

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Then leave, since it's not your city in the first place.

Edit: Ignore the last bit. I said I wouldn't bring it up.

If I could convince the rest of Aus and all of israel, i wish they would give up the middle east and move all and sundty to Australia. We have the land, but it needs the balls to ignore politics and irrigate the bloody country, something the isrealis have done

facts speak for themselves. jews were in palestine. after ww2, more were settled and israel was created by people who felt they controlled the world and who felt bad about ww2. then the ARAB MUSLIMS attacked the jews. AND LOST. MULITPLE TIMES.

move on ffs. luckily iran will eventually piss enough sunni's off that the palestinians will lose all sunni support

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elb

If I could convince the rest of Aus and all of israel, i wish they would give up the middle east and move all and sundty to Australia. We have the land, but it needs the balls to ignore politics and irrigate the bloody country, something the isrealis have done

facts speak for themselves. jews were in palestine. after ww2, more were settled and israel was created by people who felt they controlled the world and who felt bad about ww2. then the ARAB MUSLIMS attacked the jews. AND LOST. MULITPLE TIMES.

move on ffs. luckily iran will eventually piss enough sunni's off that the palestinians will lose all sunni support

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I think you forgot a teeny-weeny bit of history here. Palestinians lived in every settlement/city that is now jewish. Then the jews came from Poland, Russia, USA, Italy, etc etc and immigrated to a country they never ever had sat their foot on, and had no legal claim to. More and more came, and those who already lived there obviously disagreed and they protested like any normal person would do.
Who knows who started, but there were some terrorist incidents from both sides in the late 20's, and many different jewish terror organisations were formed and slaugthered both palestinians and british. They terrorized the entire region. They even offered to fight alongside with the NAZI's against the british.
This kept on till the UN decided to make Israel and Palestine, but this wasn't enough for the jews and they grabbed 24% extra land. In doing this, the jews tried to ethnically cleanse the land of palestinians, and they butchered entire villages and made hundreds of thousands of ppl flee from their land.
NO ONE will accept to loose their land like that, and they had the support of the Arab nations and war was declared. However, Israel was much stronger than ppl thought and Israel grabbed even more land.

Even Switzerland would go to war if someone one day came in and grabbed most of their land, and threw the swiss out.
NO ONE would stand still and NOT declare war.

The jews STOLE land to create Israel. And have since that ethnically cleansed more and more land, and kept the palestinians in a prison with no rights. And therefore the palestinians have EVERY right to fight back.

Today, even more children got killed btw.

Hamas has killed 5 ppl in total, while Israel killed 520+ and injured thousands. 46% of all injured are women/children. This shows how little the israelis care about avoiding civilian casualties. They couldn't care less about them.
This is the very same retoric terror organisations use, those civilians protect and support their enemy, so they must die.

So how can anyone now say terror organisations are wrong to bomb civilians when Israel is allowed to do it?

And why bomb police stations, hospitals, universities, market places, homes, government buildings, etc?
What wrong did the police man at the police station do? He fights crime, solves crimes. What made him a bad guy? He did NOTHING to hurt anyone.

And in todays newspaper, you can also read about the israelis bombing farms where families live, killing all their stock. And I should add that no Hamas ever lived on those farms.

This is pretty nasty, but I truthfully wish that Hamas puts suicide bombers inside Israel, preferably Tel Aviv, and they find a Israeli solder and kill him, alongside with 30 civilians. This would be a legit target for Hamas, since Israel would not care either. Israel deserves to feel some of the terror they have unleashed upon an entire ppl, who did NOTHING wrong, except being born palestinian.

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Originally Posted by AFKain

I think what Stoffi was trying to illustrate is that there is a big difference between the actions of Hamas (rockets) and Israel. The response is very disproportionate, in terms of civilian casualties and terror I think that Israel's actions are the worst act of terrorism.

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Israeli citizens hide in shelters, Palestinian civilians acts as human shields.

If Hamas cared about it's civilians it would take them away from the fighting and you'll see fewer civilian deaths on their side.

I'm sure you know nothing about terrorism if you say Israel's actions are "the worst act of terrorism". What kind of terror are you suffering from in your country?

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Originally Posted by AFKain

It could be because the west bank isn't under siege and being starved.

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Where do you get your info from? Gaza was not starved before the military action and even during the current action Israel itself sends humanitarian aid into Gaza.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

Edit:
Forgot to ask about this, exactly where in "international law" is this stated? It sounds to me like something made up to lessen the burden that civilian casualties has on the inventor's mind.

If you strike a target knowing that there's a risk/certitude that civilians will be killed you decide that striking the target is worth the civilian casualties. Using a reasoning that says that civilian deaths aren't the responsibility of the one who actually does the aggression against them would mean that you could nuke gaza and still claim that it was hamas's fault...

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First, Israel does take into account the civilian casualties even when it strikes military targets. For example, as far as I've heard, Hamas hides rockets under the hospital in Gaza (like they hide it under mosques). Despite that, Israel doesn't target the hospital from the air and kills everyone in it.

For similar reasons Israel doesn't nuke Gaza.

Secondly, a few things about international law:

Quote:

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Protected civilians must NOT be:...
- Used to shield military operations or make an area immune from military operations.

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This quote is taken from http://www.ppu.org.uk/learn/texts/doc_geneva_con.html#4

This was taken from an Arab TV station: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMjSo...layer_embedded

I would like to see the entire interview if you can link me to it.

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Originally Posted by stoffi

You obviously know very little of Hamas. Hamas have built a huuuuge amount of schools and welfare institutions for the civilian population of palestine, that's part of the reason why they are so popular. But once something nice gets built, Israel bombs it away.
I suggest you get your facts straight before posting bs like this.

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They also got a huuuge amount of rockets, and they are firing them from these schools. Israel doesn't bomb schools. it bombs terrorists launching rockets.

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Originally Posted by stoffi

And according to your logic, any child COULD grow up to be a suicide bomber, and therefore must be killed.

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You are an extremist that has only black or white in his head. While you are right that anyone can be a suicide bomber, it doesn't mean that you must kill him.

Anyone can be a murderer, a rapist, a pedophile or a terrorist. Are you saying we must kill everyone?

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Bombing Gaza won't stop the rockets, quite on the contrary.

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Bombing rockets and terrorist will make Hamas less able to launch rockets. The plan is to get safety first and peace later.

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Originally Posted by stoffi

And btw, it was Israel who made Hamas start firing rockets again, since Israel kept bombing Hamas in the shadows. Hamas got sick of this, and decided to respond. But your media won't talk much about that.

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You should re-read my first post in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Mourhelm

I'll start by saying that it doesn't matter what people say and what facts they quote. People will always believe what they want to believe and find a way to justify their actions.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

And injuring 1500 children/women and killing 100 kids vs a few rockets in the desert and a few killed is just plain wrong. The real terrorist here is Israel. Just today they bombed a market and killed 20 ppl. Even if there was a hamas leader in that market, Israel shoulldn't have bombed. Israel is a racist, apartheid state which believes their race is superior to others because they supposedly are chosen by a god not that many believe in.

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Where do you get your data from? Why do you present only the Palestinian side?

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Originally Posted by Nemo

Mournhelm: "So lets say it's all the UK's fault - It doesn't help us at all."

Of course it doesn't. Neither does bombing Gaza.

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Bombing Gaza destroys the rockets that Hamas uses to fire at us. I'm sure we won't wait for their ammo to run out, but it will surly change the amount of rockets fired at our civilian population.

This operation is not intended to get peace. It is intended to bring safety.

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Originally Posted by Nemo

Have you forgotten? Osama Bin Laden was Saudi. The extremists Muslims are more pronounced in the Middle East, thanks to the reasons I highlighted before. And other Muslim countries don't really like Israel much either.

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Are you trying to say that Saudi Arabia is a terrorist country? I don't think Osama Bin Laden represents the entire Saudi or Arab population.

Every country has its own extremist. Keeping them out of the game is the only way to get peace.

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Originally Posted by stoffi

I think you forgot a teeny-weeny bit of history here.

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I don't think you can give history lessons to people given the fact that you don't know history.

Of course some of the things you say are true/have a basis of truth, but you clearly need some history lessons yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

So how can anyone now say terror organisations are wrong to bomb civilians when Israel is allowed to do it?

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Yes, I can. Because of two reasons.

1. it's wrong to bomb civilians
2. Israel bombs terrorists that hide behind civilians. Israel doesn't bomb civilians.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoffi

This is pretty nasty, but I truthfully wish that Hamas puts suicide bombers inside Israel, preferably Tel Aviv, and they find a Israeli solder and kill him, alongside with 30 civilians. This would be a legit target for Hamas, since Israel would not care either. Israel deserves to feel some of the terror they have unleashed upon an entire ppl, who did NOTHING wrong, except being born palestinian.

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I see you're here to war, not to talk. I'm done with you.

I wish no terrorist will ever hurt you. Your family will probably say it's an acceptable loss.

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Israeli citizens hide in shelters, Palestinian civilians acts as human shields.

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I think that Palestinian civilians would happily accept if you were going to invite them into your shelters instead of their unprotected homes which could be blown to pieces at any time...

Quote:

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If Hamas cared about it's civilians it would take them away from the fighting and you'll see fewer civilian deaths on their side.

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First of all, where would the civilians go? Secondly the civilians aren't on anyone's side, they are civilians, that's the definition... Thirdly, do you think that Israel is responsible for civilian deaths if a Palestinian suicide bomber kills an Israeli soldier and a number of civilians? I doubt it, nor do I.

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I'm sure you know nothing about terrorism if you say Israel's actions are "the worst act of terrorism". What kind of terror are you suffering from in your country?

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I did not mean for what I said to be interpreted in the way you do, my opinion is that of the two acts of terrorism that I was comparing Israel's is the worst. I think that is clear when reading the sentence in its context but if I'm wrong about that I apologize for the confusion.

Quote:

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Where do you get your info from? Gaza was not starved before the military action and even during the current action Israel itself sends humanitarian aid into Gaza.

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The blockade cut off Gaza from the rest of the world, most goods had to be smuggled in and of the necessities there were a bare minimum. Every day I see reports of how there is not enough medicine or fuel or electricity, just this morning I saw an estimate that said that there is only flour for 2 or 3 days more.

Quote:

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a few things about international law

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No according to the geneva convention it is not ok to use civilians as shields, but nor is targeting civilians... Both Israel and Hamas are guilty here. For the record it does not say "if you use civilians as shields it is your fault that they die" as you indicated earlier. This is a quote showing that the killing of civilians is also prohibited:

Quote:

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1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person(...)

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http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm

About your clip there, all this barrister does is answer whether Hamas has any claim against Israel according to international law. It is not about whether Israel's actions are legal. Also, 34 secs into the clip there's an obvious cut, right after the question "surely this isn't proportional?" then 1 minute in there's a pretty strange answer to the question asked ("targeting areas where you know civilians will die is against international law?"), I can't say if that's been manipulated though since they change cameras at that point. However at 1.08 it is again clearly visible that the clip has been edited. I don't think that the clip has any value whatsoever to your claim about international law.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mourhelm

I don't think you can give history lessons to people given the fact that you don't know history.

Of course some of the things you say are true/have a basis of truth, but you clearly need some history lessons yourself.



Yes, I can. Because of two reasons.

1. it's wrong to bomb civilians
2. Israel bombs terrorists that hide behind civilians. Israel doesn't bomb civilians.

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Would you care to elaborate where I am wrong? Got anything at all to back you up?

630 palestinian children are injured and are now at the hospital. You say it's wrong to bomb civilians, then you say Israel doesn't bomb civilians. You need to face reality. Israel DOES bomb civilians. 2 experienced norwegian doctors are down there, doing their best. 630 children!
Israel IS bombing civilians, and Hamas does not use them as human shields. They are normal children, walking about, hiding at home in their house, going to the market, hiding from rockets. 630 children ffs!!!!

How on earth can you legitimize bombing 630 children? Sounds like terror to me.
And most males injured/killed are also civilians, family fathers trying to protect their family. Israel is a brutal, killing machine, a nation of terror.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mourhelm

Israeli citizens hide in shelters, Palestinian civilians acts as human shields.

If Hamas cared about it's civilians it would take them away from the fighting and you'll see fewer civilian deaths on their side.

I'm sure you know nothing about terrorism if you say Israel's actions are "the worst act of terrorism". What kind of terror are you suffering from in your country?

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During the french revolution, the ppl starved and the queen supposedly made a famous quote that showed her ignorance. The ppl had no bread, so she asked why they didn't eat cookies instead....

Your post is like this. They don't hide in shelters because they haven't got any! And Hamas can't take the civilians away from the fighting because there is no place that is away from the fighting! This is the most populated area in the world, there is no space.
What do you expect Hamas to do? Round up all Hamas soldiers and put them in one house and then ask Israel to just bomb that house?

Gaza is the worst place on earth right now, there is no place worse. I would prefer to live in Somalia instead. No one is safe in Gaza, every family living there has experienced deaths because of Israeli bombings, killing all they can.


And face it, Israel DOES bomb civilians. Thousands lie injured at the hospital, and hundreds lie dead in the streets. Wake up!

Hamas are no saints and they should stop sending rockets into the desert, but Israel is by no means justified to butcher the civilian population of Gaza, and it's not Hamas' fault. I don't see a gun against the Israeli pm's head, the Israelis do this, not Hamas.

If a small child stomps on your foot, are you entitled to rape him and his family? Is it his fault you raped them? NO! You are responsible for your own actions, and so is Israel.
If that logic is used, USA is responsible for all terrorist actions across the globe since they pissed the terrorists off. The terrorists had reasons for , no doubt. USA have bombed them and betrayed them. But that doesn't justify terror actions!

hmm..
do any of you know your history?

last i check there was something called the kingdom of the Israel.

Palestine didnt exist by. soo chronologically and historically. Israel as a Nation is just reinstated and not Installed, since they do have claim to the land disputed. What the UN did was to appease the Palestinians and separated them and Israel. As for Israel they cant care less but retake what was supposedly theirs in the 1st place. Palestinians should be happy about the agreement instead of bombing Israel, which is like giving Israel a perfect reason to try to retake their lost lands. Its like the Russia vs Georgia where Georgia was stupid enough to give Russia a reason to steam roll them and then now Hama like Georgia is playing the "victim" where its their fault at the 1st place in provoking.

here is a nice question for all of you?
have you visited israel's southern cities? if no, go visit and you will be thousands of sharpnel and bomb/rocket parts lined up to remind them what they are up against in the south.

terror sparks terror. Even Hamas knows that. that is why its playing the "victim" so the UN will intervene.

I agree with israel where International Monitor will be installed that way hamas cant say sh*t and they cant launch rockets and play "victim"

for hamas not agree with that, just show hamas will not honor any agreement and try to severe ties.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

I think that Palestinian civilians would happily accept if you were going to invite them into your shelters instead of their unprotected homes which could be blown to pieces at any time...

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If Hamas wanted it could have put their people away from the rockets and the fighting.

Israel does not aim at civilian targets. Israel issues warnings to the civilian population and even send them humanitarian aid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

First of all, where would the civilians go?

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Away from the rockets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

Secondly the civilians aren't on anyone's side, they are civilians, that's the definition...

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Of course there are sides. Physically there is the border. Non-physically there is the nationality and citizenship.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

Thirdly, do you think that Israel is responsible for civilian deaths if a Palestinian suicide bomber kills an Israeli soldier and a number of civilians? I doubt it, nor do I.

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If the suicide bomber explodes in an Israeli military base it is acceptable that civilians will die. Israel is responsible for the civilians within its military bases.

If, on the other hand, the suicide bomber explodes in a bus station and one soldier dies, it is still a civilian target and Israel is not responsible for the civilian deaths.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

I did not mean for what I said to be interpreted in the way you do, my opinion is that of the two acts of terrorism that I was comparing Israel's is the worst. I think that is clear when reading the sentence in its context but if I'm wrong about that I apologize for the confusion.

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You used the worst instead of worse which lead to the confusion.

I don't see Israel's actions as terrorism. It's no more terrorism than any other war.

The goal is not to terrorize the Palestinian population but to stop Hamas rockets for a long period of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

The blockade cut off Gaza from the rest of the world, most goods had to be smuggled in and of the necessities there were a bare minimum. Every day I see reports of how there is not enough medicine or fuel or electricity, just this morning I saw an estimate that said that there is only flour for 2 or 3 days more.

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First, you didn't answer my question as to where you get your info from.

Second, the fact that there is flour for two more days shows that Gaza was not starved. Israel sends shipments of humanitarian aid into Gaza to prevent, as much as possible, a humanitarian crisis.

The Palestinian population is not the enemy of Israel!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

No according to the geneva convention it is not ok to use civilians as shields, but nor is targeting civilians...

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I agree. Hamas does both.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

Both Israel and Hamas are guilty here. For the record it does not say "if you use civilians as shields it is your fault that they die" as you indicated earlier.

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I agree it doesn't say that explicitly in my quote of the Geneva convention, but I'm sure you can find it.

I will take the time to look for it later (I'm kinda busy now and I need to reformat my computer).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

This is a quote showing that the killing of civilians is also prohibited:
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person(...)
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm

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This quote is very nice, but if these people take no active part they should get away from the danger zone. Hamas forces its people to stay in the danger zone to serve as a human shield.

If you were at war with a country, do you think that you'd send your sons into harms way so your army could attack without retaliation?

Will you let your people die because the enemy uses children as human shields?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

About your clip there, all this barrister does is answer whether Hamas has any claim against Israel according to international law. It is not about whether Israel's actions are legal.

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That's the point. They have no claims because what Israel is doing is legal self defense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFKain

Also, 34 secs into the clip there's an obvious cut, right after the question "surely this isn't proportional?" then 1 minute in there's a pretty strange answer to the question asked ("targeting areas where you know civilians will die is against international law?"), I can't say if that's been manipulated though since they change cameras at that point. However at 1.08 it is again clearly visible that the clip has been edited. I don't think that the clip has any value whatsoever to your claim about international law.

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I told you it's not the full interview and that I'd like a link to the full interview.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mourhelm

I would like to see the entire interview if you can link me to it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by PowerofGlory

hmm..
do any of you know your history?

last i check there was something called the kingdom of the Israel.

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That's not history - that's a biblical story. While it's probably true that there was the kingdom of Israel, it's so far in the past that it's irrelevant.

Same goes to the idea of removing Israel from the map because the UN split the territory. It was done and there's no real solution to undo it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PowerofGlory

Palestine didnt exist by.

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The story of David and Goliath is also biblical and shows that the Palestinians were here then, but not all over the place (Israel was built on Canaan).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PowerofGlory

soo chronologically and historically. Israel as a Nation is just reinstated and not Installed, since they do have claim to the land disputed.

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These claims are biblical and if you go by that, god promised us much much more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PowerofGlory

What the UN did was to appease the Palestinians and separated them and Israel. As for Israel they cant care less but retake what was supposedly theirs in the 1st place. Palestinians should be happy about the agreement instead of bombing Israel, which is like giving Israel a perfect reason to try to retake their lost lands. Its like the Russia vs Georgia where Georgia was stupid enough to give Russia a reason to steam roll them and then now Hama like Georgia is playing the "victim" where its their fault at the 1st place in provoking.

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Israel doesn't try to reconquer Gaza after removing all the Israeli citizens from there. Only our religious extremist want to take it all back. They cause more harm than they do good.

What the UN gave us is enough. There's no need to conquer more territory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PowerofGlory

here is a nice question for all of you?
have you visited israel's southern cities? if no, go visit and you will be thousands of sharpnel and bomb/rocket parts lined up to remind them what they are up against in the south.

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I got to enjoy the "nice" feeling of Hizbulla rockets from Lebanon (on our last war). One of these missiles hit a house in my neighborhood, about 200 meters from my house.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PowerofGlory

terror sparks terror. Even Hamas knows that. that is why its playing the "victim" so the UN will intervene.

I agree with israel where International Monitor will be installed that way hamas cant say sh*t and they cant launch rockets and play "victim"

for hamas not agree with that, just show hamas will not honor any agreement and try to severe ties.

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It might work, but there is a genaral agreement among us in this thread that the UN is practically useless.

PowerofGlory, let's give the Romans [aka Italians] most of Europe and all of the Mediterranean. Or maybe give the Greeks Alexanders Empire? Or maybe give the Mongols half the world?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mourhelm

If, on the other hand, the suicide bomber explodes in a bus station and one soldier dies, it is still a civilian target and Israel is not responsible for the civilian deaths.

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What if the soldier has a gun on him? Is it still a civilian target?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nemo

What if the soldier has a gun on him? Is it still a civilian target?

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Of course it's still a civilian target.

If a terrorist comes to bomb your house and a soldier comes to help you, will you consider your house a military target?

I will only consider a bus station (or house) as a military target if it has a military purpose (like storing rockets).