Age 61 potential changes comments.

Potential revision:

Avians:
-30% attack times
+20% birth rates
Accurate Espionage (taken from Tactician)

No access to stables
(removed: -10% gains)

Greater Protection, Fanaticism
Elite: 6/2 500gc 5nw

Dwarves no change

Elf
+30% wpa
-50% defensive losses
+1 defensive specialist strength

-10% gains (taken from Avian, defensive advantages are countered by difficulty fortifying military gains)

Nightmares, Pitfalls, Mages Fury
Elite: 5/4, 800gc, 5.5NW (brought closer in line with other races elites)

Faery
+30% Spell damage (instant spells)
+30% Sabotage damage
+1 mana per tick in war

All racial spells
Elite: 4/5, 750gc, 5.5NW (a race with native ToG has a lot of advantage as-is, and Faeries got some really nice buffs; the added cost nerfs their substantial economic lead)

Halflings
+10% population
+50% TPA
-40% thief cost (down from -50%)
+1 offensive specialist strength

-25% Birth Rate

Invisibility, Town Watch, Aggression, Animate Dead
Elite: 4/4, 450gc, 4NW

Human no change

Orc
+25% Attack Gains
Free draft
+25% Enemy casualties when attacking

-20% science effectiveness

Reflect Magic
Elite: 7/2, 750gc, 6NW

(expensive elites and a slight decrease in nw-efficiency as attackers, compensated by added defense on their elites, giving them slightly more durability and less of a disadvantage if caught armies-in)

Undead
-50% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Converts some Specialists into Elites on successful land attacks
Spreads and is Immune to The Plague
No Food Required

Basic Thievery (Intel operations only)

Town Watch, Vermin
Elite: 7/1, 600gc, 5.75NW

(trades elite with Orcs. while i don't like this approach to undead, the only other usable elites that aren't used by other races would be 5/5 which should be avoided, and 7/3 which is far too strong. the low defense value on ghouls might encourage Undeads to use more offspecs to counteract ambush and huge defensive losses. in exchange, their nw efficiency is slightly improved relative to Orc, but lack the Orc damage mods. Undead given Vermin adds some unique flavor to them, but also fits well with attacking food stores, while also indirectly giving Faeries Vermin)

Merchant no change

Sage:
Every 3 acres generates 1 book
-30% cost of science
Protect 30% of science from the Learn attack.
Access to Amnesia and Fountain of Knowledge
Starts with 40000 science books

(FoK is already a racial unique, but this gives people who pick Sage another slight edge in accumulating science. Right now Sages are too underpowered for most kingdoms to consider, but Amnesia as a personality unique is an interesting approach to allow Sages to attack other kingdoms' science.)

The Rogue
+1 Stealth recovery per tick
Access to all thievery operations, including 3 unique to rogues: Greater Arson, Assassinate Wizards and Propaganda
-20% thief training costs
(remove Vermin)
Starts with +400 thieves

(Building up tpa with Rogues during war becomes easier, without giving them too much more power; pumping Rogues saves considerable money as well. They lose Vermin, which becomes a racial spell for Faery and Undead.)

Mystic: (no change)
All Guilds are twice as effective
+1 mana per tick in War
Access to Meteor Showers, Chastity, Nightmares
Starts with +200 Wizards

The Warrior
+1 General
+10% OME in hostile
Enhanced Conquest range
Access to Bloodlust
Starts with +800 soldiers and +800 specialist credits

(the only change is removing the loophole which encourages kingdoms to drag out hostiles against Warrior kingdoms, but even without this warrior should be fine)

The Tactician
-15% Attack Time
(remove Accurate Espionage)
-30% military wages
Access to Clear Sight
Starts with +800 soldiers and +800 specialist credits

(Tacticians lose their accurate espionage to Avians. They pay less on wages to make up for this, which is a slight improvement for pure attackers who don't care so much about thief losses.)

The Cleric
-30% Your Military Casualties (on attack or defense)
Immune to Plague
Access to Pitfalls
Starts with +800 soldiers and +800 specialist credits

(Loses some of their durability in exchange for Plague Immune, and its removal from War Hero. Since other attacker options have been weakened, Cleric should not be buffed too much.)

The War Hero
-50% train time
Immune to primary Dragon effects (the effects on income and drafting will remain, but the specific effects of Ruby, Emerald, etc. are negated)
(remove Plague Immunity)
Access to War Spoils
Starts with 400 elites

(I don't know if all of these can be programmed. War Heroes are quite strong in the right kingdom. Transferring Plague Immunity to Cleric would be enough. I don't like Dragon Immunity as a concept, but partial dragon immunity might be a way to nerf the WH. If this appears too weak, maybe they can get +50% honor bonuses back (blech). I don't think WH is too OP so whatevers...)

Mechanic/Other Changes

Dragons:
Dragon HP increased slightly (5%? 20%?) to account for dragons being easier to slay.
Removal of friendly dragon exploits (if they still exist)

Shop Items:
Hostile Meter is free - why not reveal this information for all kingdoms? I guess it is useful for noobly kingdoms that can't monitor and count hits, but I have to wonder how many kingdom hostile meters sell.
Sitters can now sit for a second province and control 3 overall. (This should increase the willingness of kingdoms to use sitting credits when they are lacking active players, and possibly increase revenue if that is the goal. Again I am not sure how well this can be programmed.)

Buildings
Homes: Increase population by 10
Stables: Hold 80 horses per stable, draft 2 horses an hour.
Armories: Reduce draft cost and wages by % * 2.5 instead of % * 2

Magic
Tree of Gold rune cost multiplier increased to 1 (from 0.8), difficulty increased, and gains reduced by -10%
Greater Protection effect increased to +7% DME from +5%, rune cost multiplier increased to 0.9 and difficulty increased
Greater/Minor Protection override each other and do not stack

Anyway the changes as they stand are fine, aside from Avian being weak.

Humans looking mighty buff again, is good.

Well i just wrote a long post, but I played human, and never again, human stink and are by far the worst race, no income bonus can make up for all the disadvamntages, orcs, undeads and every race just target humans. For 1000 elites its 1 million dollars, please, make the human 8/8 elite for 500 gc and then maybe orcs and undeads wll stop constantly raping us. Feel free to look at my human account and how humans are raped everyday. The faerys rape us too in war and so does every race. The human has no expertise, he is a 3rd rate attacker and is a poor mage and poor thief, so what you have is a jack of all trade, master of none, who cannot go head to head against a single race and win.

Set up your kd with 20 undead merchants and 5 mages. Im not seeing what sort of kingdom is going to be able to handle a kd like that in war. 20 provinces that can fund dragons with tog. Slay dragons with 7 point elites while your opponent struggles with 4 point dspecs. Reduced combat losses and lotsa cash to replace losses. Use the mages for nightmare and own. ok ok maybe a kd full of war heroes would be problematic but there wont be any kds full of war heroes.

Dwarf is gonna be boss this age

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Originally Posted by Molly

Set up your kd with 20 undead merchants and 5 mages. Im not seeing what sort of kingdom is going to be able to handle a kd like that in war. 20 provinces that can fund dragons with tog. Slay dragons with 7 point elites while your opponent struggles with 4 point dspecs. Reduced combat losses and lotsa cash to replace losses. Use the mages for nightmare and own. ok ok maybe a kd full of war heroes would be problematic but there wont be any kds full of war heroes.

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undead is the worst merchant.

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Originally Posted by tiggis

No smart undeads buy their elites anyway so it does not really matter.
I have never spent a gold coin on them.

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LOL let me know your location I want to war you next age

Awesome changes bishop. I would advise you to change nothing anymore. Everything is finely balanced now. Perhaps reduce Avian Elite costs to 450 to make them more viable for long wars. But then again, there are probably some guys who are much better than me at this game who'll disagree about this. Just keep the changes!

In my opinion after removing the towers bonus for mages their game became harder. I propose to give them +1 rune/acre(similar as sages). At 3k acres MS cost 6.7k runes and if u have +1 rune/acre(or +1 rune/2 acres) ur game will become better: u will have 40-20% of the runes needed from perso bonus and for the other 60-80% u will need like 8-10% towers(depending on sci and BE). Now mages need like 12-14% towers(late age with sci pumped, early age without sci 17+) so they can cast 4 MS every 3 ticks. They have mana but no runes. I don't think that buff should go to faeries/elfs.

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Originally Posted by himmlersberg

Well i just wrote a long post, but I played human, and never again, human stink and are by far the worst race, no income bonus can make up for all the disadvamntages, orcs, undeads and every race just target humans. For 1000 elites its 1 million dollars, please, make the human 8/8 elite for 500 gc and then maybe orcs and undeads wll stop constantly raping us. Feel free to look at my human account and how humans are raped everyday. The faerys rape us too in war and so does every race. The human has no expertise, he is a 3rd rate attacker and is a poor mage and poor thief, so what you have is a jack of all trade, master of none, who cannot go head to head against a single race and win.

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http://www.quickmeme.com/img/80/80ef...d6160692b1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Avalanche

Ps:
Please bring back rogue double td effectiveness

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Is it rude if i say: "Hell yeah!!!" ?

Honorwise and on effectivness magic is more powerful than thievery (and I always wanted to believe otherwise)

Halfling/Merchant.. so overpowered with 10% extra pop and ToG... with good WPA they can put up a good defence against fireball. Good TPA meaning they can kidnap pezzies to refill their population easily.. I can see a lot of big halfling turtles next age that just sit with their army home and ToG for dragon.. and if theyre unbreakable then game over

I haven't played for several ages and decided to lurk again.

To the people saying they never pay for elites when playing UD: listen to other people. The goal is to make your province as strong as possible per acre. Using specs for offense won't help you with that. Spec conversion is a very useless benefit. Having 100% elite offense is always better.

To people complaining about Humans/Faeries/etc getting raped too often: When experience tells you those races are likely to hoard lots of gold and sci while having ****ty offense, then those are the races you target when you're looking for a nice plunder or learn. The goal is you make your own province stronger without inviting retals.

My offense is pretty good thanks. Humans are strong, and only looking to get stronger based on these changes.

I quite like the changes this age, with the exception of:

- ToG on merchant, pretty scary thought.
- Increasing massacre damage in war, pretty scary thought.

Dwarf Merchant will be interesting to play.

Just give mystic no rune decay or something.

/me shakes his head.

Not very interesting changes mostly. Only dragon killing changes the dynamics of wars a lot and is very interesting. I think monarch should have some bonuses, considering that honor bonuses are substantial, there should be a bonus for the king. To keep being a king becoming a bouncing tools, by switching it around, let it have a delay in coming to effect like 48 or 96h. Doesn't really matter as kings usually stay in place and steward gets changed around.

The races are very well balanced and all except avian have definately a strong role possible.

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Originally Posted by lusitano

Halfling/Merchant.. so overpowered with 10% extra pop and ToG... with good WPA they can put up a good defence against fireball. Good TPA meaning they can kidnap pezzies to refill their population easily.. I can see a lot of big halfling turtles next age that just sit with their army home and ToG for dragon.. and if theyre unbreakable then game over

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I thought that and its a good combination but certainly not OPed by any stretch of the imagination. For everyone begging for double thieves dens on rogue stop asking for such stupidly large buffs. Just because they existed before doesn't mean they are magically coming back. Maybe we can get something like thieves dens are 25-50% more effective for rogues?

lower cost of dragon

From:
Dragon Cost = MAX ( Target Kingdom NW , Your Kingdom NW ) * 1.25
To:
Dragon Cost = MAX ( Target Kingdom NW , Your Kingdom NW ) * .85

Nice to see some of the suggestions that I and others made come to fruition :)

Some comments;

Avian - Nerfing one of the least used races isn't sensible :D Instead give them some sort of magic or thievery edge to make them an attractive A/M or A/T choice IMHO. Example, +40% damage when casting fireballs, or kidnapping, something that makes sense since they can fly! :D

Dwarf - Somewhat usable now but still weak IMHO. Again, some sort of A/M or A/T appeal could make this interesting. Example, greater effectiveness when casting Fool's gold, +35% resources stolen when thieving gc,runes,food. They are greedy! Haven't you seen Lord of the Rings? :P

Elves - Wow they are becoming even greater ultimate solid attackers with 5/4, didn't see that one coming! Legolas would be proud.

Faery - Nice changes. This should convert a lot of Elves across. With mystic that is some serious Mana recharge, holy cow :D

Halfling - Frodo baggins is sad. But maybe as Merchant + stacked with lots of homes which are 10 now... Could be interesting.

Human - They basically just picked up a free personality!! WOW. Human galore next age for sure!!!

Orcs - Nice balancing. Combined with massacre strength buff and emerald dragon buff + bloodlust + new casualty bonus they could do some SERIOUS HEAVY DUTY damage! Perhaps TOO much damage? With pitfalls too you are probably talking well over +100% casualties...!

UD - Cheaper leets? They were the most chosen race this age. Now you give them cheaper leets :P

Merchant - not bad, could work with dwarf or halfling quite well.

Sage - nice

Rogue - needs TD effectiveness or something extra.

Rest - decent enough!

for those that think rogue double TD bonus is overpowered, then give rogues 50% thief losses on ops. That is the only reason people are pushing for it. Think about it? I just did no TD's on me SoT run on a KD in fort. I was sending 10% of my thieves per op which was 2K thieves. I was losing 100 thieves on a fail and I was losing up to 50 or so from repulsion on successes. Figure on average 12 per successful op. I did 38 ops. I failed 7 of those. So that is 700 + 31*12 = 1072 in thief losses just grabbing SoTs (my actual losses, since I retrained them were 1086). I am playing a human sage with 125% crime science and 3.5 tpa raw. So, it costs me 1072*500= 536,000 gold just to get SoT's?

I am sorry, thats freaking retarded. Thief losses need to be blanket reduced (as I suggested in other threads here) or at a minimum, rogues need 50% thief losses.

Don't take SOTs as human sage. Let your attackers do it.

Fix thievery vs magic honor system.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

for those that think rogue double TD bonus is overpowered, then give rogues 50% thief losses on ops. That is the only reason people are pushing for it. Think about it? I just did no TD's on me SoT run on a KD in fort. I was sending 10% of my thieves per op which was 2K thieves. I was losing 100 thieves on a fail and I was losing up to 50 or so from repulsion on successes. Figure on average 12 per successful op. I did 38 ops. I failed 7 of those. So that is 700 + 31*12 = 1072 in thief losses just grabbing SoTs (my actual losses, since I retrained them were 1086). I am playing a human sage with 125% crime science and 3.5 tpa raw. So, it costs me 1072*500= 536,000 gold just to get SoT's?

I am sorry, thats freaking retarded. Thief losses need to be blanket reduced (as I suggested in other threads here) or at a minimum, rogues need 50% thief losses.

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Bad arguments. The big problems of rouges arent the "not doubled TD's", or too many loses but the gold dragon and CS. If you are good enough(3.5 raw tpa rogue is bad) you wouldn't need double TD. Faeries have tog to retrain them, halfers have cheaper thieves. Just because you want to play something else as rogue, which isnt bad, doesnt mean you must have such bonus to be able to play it :).

Mages need double guild effectiveness because pumping wiz is harder than thieves and takes more time. So when u lose wizz because failed spell you will need much more time to retrain those wizz than rouge will to retrain thieves. Runes is bigger problem for them... and I hope there will be something about it :).

Wow, you guys are missing the point entirely. I am not playing a rogue. I am an attacker. The numbers above were so you all could see the base losses. Why do people always get buried in the weeds?

The overall part is, thief losses are very high. Even as a halfer rogue that run would likely have cost around 125K gc. Does anyone think that it should cost 125k gc to take SoT on all 25 provinces in a KD? If the answer is no, then something has to be done about losses. Now add higher difficulty ops into the mix. SoT is the EASIEST op int he game right?

So lets do easy to moderate level sabotage ops. Then that is a 20% increase in fail rate. so the cost of doing easy to moderate sabotage ops for that halfer across 36 ops is 150k gc. Do the hard ops and the fail rate doubles. and the cost is 250-300k. Take a faery TM that should be spending all its mana on tog to replace thieves and you quickly see how this is simply too punishing to TMs.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Thief losses need to be blanket reduced (as I suggested in other threads here) or at a minimum, rogues need 50% thief losses.

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this +1. Thieves die way too fast. one failed op i lose hundreds of thieves. Thieves are meant to come and go easily since you can pay to retrain them sure but the guaranteed failures really does a number on a single op run.

Perhaps remove the guaranteed failure and make WTs increase the % of ops failed compared to having no WTs?

Let's say a halfer ops an Orc, and the TPA ratios give him a 10% failure rate. WTs could add a % to that failure rate. So with 15% WTs on 100% BE the failure rate would double? Right now, if you go Dwarf/Tactician and build 15% WTs on 30% BE and cast CS, even if you have 0 thieves you still prevent 50% of all thievery ops!

Bring back colors in forums!

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Originally Posted by Sheister

The overall part is, thief losses are very high. Even as a halfer rogue that run would likely have cost around 125K gc. Does anyone think that it should cost 125k gc to take SoT on all 25 provinces in a KD? If the answer is no, then something has to be done about losses. Now add higher difficulty ops into the mix. SoT is the EASIEST op int he game right?

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T/Ms dont take sot/som they use their stealth for ops. And y there should be loses for rogues otherwise they will have huge income and become OP. If a faery has to tog whole day to replace thieves that lost better not to play faery. Also rogues can return part of their loses with prop. Build good economy with good BE and 10-15% TD and you should be fine. It's a matter of skills ;). FYI homes are getting buffed this age so t/ms should have better BE therefore better TD efficiency.

If I'm rogue and play against tact I wont op him unless MV is done :). That CS is strong I admit, sapf/gold dragons f*ck up rogue a lot I admit that too, however it doesn't mean you have to buff rogue. They are made to counter rogues.

And btw I'm just saying but at 2k acres undead with 10-11 epa has 800-900 elites losses on attack... buff the undead pls... -50% losses not enough(sarcasm). You have big losses on thieves because you are big and have huge number of thieves - just admit that you lose 1-2k thieves which is equal to 0.1-0.2 tpa.

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Originally Posted by Bo To

T/Ms dont take sot/som they use their stealth for ops. And y there should be loses for rogues otherwise they will have huge income and become OP. If a faery has to tog whole day to replace thieves that lost better not to play faery. Also rogues can return part of their loses with prop. Build good economy with good BE and 10-15% TD and you should be fine. It's a matter of skills ;). FYI homes are getting buffed this age so t/ms should have better BE therefore better TD efficiency.

If I'm rogue and play against tact I wont op him unless MV is done :). That CS is strong I admit, sapf/gold dragons f*ck up rogue a lot I admit that too, however it doesn't mean you have to buff rogue. They are made to counter rogues.

And btw I'm just saying but at 2k acres undead with 10-11 epa has 800-900 elites losses on attack... buff the undead pls... -50% losses not enough. You have big losses on thieves because you are big and have huge number of thieves - just admit that you lose 1-2k thieves which is equal to 0.1-0.2 tpa.

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Thieves have no right to talk about losses.
A wizard's wpa after a AW run is a true story of losses.
And you cant just buy them back.

Something I have been thinking about is War Hero.
They need a little offensive boost to truly be a War Hero.
Most of the good bonuses are taken by spells and races and personalities.
But It thought up a bonus that is not taken, actually fits war hero and it kinda cool.

Warhero gets a random bonus to ME (1% - 10%) that changes each tick.
So one hour you might get +5% and the next +2%.
I think that is kinda sexy and unique.

Thoughts?

Not sure if Elf is an option for a pure Mage anymore. Faeries have more mana, and now they can slay with elites. It's harder for them to lose troops to propaganda against a super thief. Also, faeries can cast CS to guard against pure thieves, saving up a lot of space else used on WTs. AND they have a full spellbook. Think Elf is only really for A/M this age.

Faeries ain't got no CS

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Originally Posted by Bukharistan

Not sure if Elf is an option for a pure Mage anymore. Faeries have more mana, and now they can slay with elites. It's harder for them to lose troops to propaganda against a super thief. Also, faeries can cast CS to guard against pure thieves, saving up a lot of space else used on WTs. AND they have a full spellbook. Think Elf is only really for A/M this age.

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CS is given to tact - faery/tact would have CS... but who would play faery/tact :D. Also elfs take 5 point HP from dragon for 350, faeries might do it for much more. Elf/mage has one mana less than faery/mage but again: not the mana is the problem the runes are. Elfs have +30% wpa which helps a lot for ms/chastity/greed/pf. Those spells arent affected by any of faeries bonuses, also faery/mage cant tog so much(because have to cover with other spells). About thieves ops - I dont see why faery/mage is better protected than elf/mage. As I see from the proposed changes faeries wont have MS, chastity, amnesia and CS. All of this are important spells so they(faeries) dont have full spellbook.

Thanks for tinkering with the buildings. It's been some time since they have been rebalanced. I think homes got a welcome buff, but maybe at some point re-evaluate to add another 2 (and at some point another 2 for a total of 14 people per house). For role playing and for diversification and variety in building sake, it would seem ideal that they are lucrative enough to have people build at least a very small percentage of their buildings here.

And a vocalization that I think most players here would like to see, is more wide variances in elites/specs, and capabilities, to make the races really stand out from each other. It allows players to fall more in love with their chosen team and to play a style they see best suits them. Example: Orc elites 9/1, Faery defense 1/7, etc. Just like the good old days.

The main reason I like the above idea is, it would allow for them to add two more races again (because of allowing for more elite values). I know this idea has been brought up and shot down many times, but who cares if there's a little bit of overlap? A little bit of overlap does not mean exact clone. It's just more interesting to have more choices.

WTs combined + nerfed thief loss calc = exploit

Bring back Thieves dens are twice as effective!!!!!

Double TDs or no runes needed will not be returning.