As you have already posted in the logs it is clear that they asked for a cf, we presented our terms, they refused. No idea why you are pretending to be stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
Printable View
As you have already posted in the logs it is clear that they asked for a cf, we presented our terms, they refused. No idea why you are pretending to be stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
So, you are agreeing that they were willing to CF you and you were not willing to give them a CF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithras
And then you used that excuse to 'have' to train up and wave them and dodge us?
Don't pretend to be dumb. The claim -- here, on IRC, everywhere -- was that Settlers refused to CF you. Now it comes out that Settlers was always willing to CF, you just wanted significant land for it.
And because they didn't want to give you free land, you "felt threatened" (though there was no threat) enough to train up and wave them.
That's 100% on you, and no one else. You knew you had conflict coming.
Settlers have had a standing CF offer since our wave wich they had rejected. Since you a quoting our logs I'm sure that you can find what it was. Or did settlers doctor all the logs you got?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
You mean these logs? Please show me the standing CF offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithras
Perhaps you mean the standing CF offer is 'Give us 10k acres'? Is that the standing CF offer?Quote:
0930:14:05] <Sn0wballz> honestly I just want you all to stop hitting and move on
[0930:14:09] <Mithras> Can not do that at this point. We need a resolution to this
[0930:14:10] <Sn0wballz> you get land
[0930:14:10] <Sn0wballz> we get CF
[0930:14:10] <Mithras> That is not good enough
[0930:14:10] <Mithras> It would have been
[0930:14:10] <Mithras> If you hadn't forced us to draft
[0930:14:10] <Mithras> Right now we need the acres and the time to prep for CR
[0930:14:11] <Sn0wballz> I'm still not sure how I forced you to draft
[0930:14:11] <Sn0wballz> I was going to war with x:
[0930:14:11] <Mithras> The discussion we had was always acres for cf or fight
[0930:14:12] <Mithras> Warring x:x was never an option
[0930:14:13] <Mithras> Had we done the first then we would not be forced to draft
[0930:14:13] <Mithras> Now it became the second option
[0930:14:13] <Mithras> And we were forced to draft
[0930:14:13] <Sn0wballz> but you can't expect me to stop my game for you
[0930:14:14] <Mithras> I don't
[0930:14:14] <Sn0wballz> we had the discussion, didn't come to anything and then we got a war with 3:10
[0930:14:14] <Sn0wballz> then you decide to wave us
[0930:14:14] <Mithras> yes
[0930:14:14] <Mithras> Since you were not agreeing to a cf
[0930:14:15] <Mithras> The other option was a fight
And again -- they were offering you a CF the entire time. If you really felt threatened, you could (should!) have taken it to prep for us.
To quote Dorje again:
And no, feeling entitled to acres does not entail 'well, we tried'.Quote:
The real question is why did Mom not make any attempt to ceasefire Sanc, when they knew an incoming notice from Havoc was on the table? Here I was sitting all postwar waiting for such a request, and when it didn't come I assumed mom intended to dodge havoc by waving us. But now the only thing I can come up with is that mom intended to stand by the ludicrous/debunked "havoc can't notice us until we ceasefire Sanc" argument.
...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
We demanded acres for a cf. So did they. No agreement was reached.
They were a kd without CF that drafted and trained. We went to both collect acres and make sure they didn't pose a threat to us.
Settlers refused all our offers to CF. No one is questioning that. Same as we refused to give them a CF since their terms was a joke.
In regards to being threatened, we had no CF and they trained. You would have done the same. Everyone would. You are just making this into a circus number to try to justify an upcoming 2 on 1 vs us.
And we know we have a conflict coming and we were ready to take that conflict. But since settlers stalled, with your advise, we are in this situation now.
And that, is completely on you giving settlers bad advise.
If you're going to quote history, you should make an attempt to get it right. In that 5-year-ago war Havoc had already noticed Mom prior to them starting a fight against Sanc. They fought Sanc to dodge Havoc, then attempted to rewave Sanc to dodge Havoc again. At the end of the war they were vultured by Havoc and Sanc was vultured by PewPew. At no point did Havoc give notice into a hostile or dealbreak Mom. I would not put that incident up as an example of fair play, but it also did not involve dealbreaking.Quote:
And no, feeling entitled to acres does not entail 'well, we tried'.Quote:
The real question is why did Mom not make any attempt to ceasefire Sanc, when they knew an incoming notice from Havoc was on the table? Here I was sitting all postwar waiting for such a request, and when it didn't come I assumed mom intended to dodge havoc by waving us. But now the only thing I can come up with is that mom intended to stand by the ludicrous/debunked "havoc can't notice us until we ceasefire Sanc" argument.
No 10k acres was never a cf offer we made. And those are not the logs. And no, you do not get to dictate who we fight and when. We have a 1 on 1 fight with settlers that you broke our agreement and noticed into. Now we are going to finish that fight on terms acceptable to us and settlers. Or we will continue to fight. You will get your fight but after we finish this fight to keep it on a 1 v 1 basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
They did not demand acres for a CF. They offered you a CF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithras
I'm not sure what this means. They were offering you a CF. If they were a true threat, you would have taken it, not tried to use it as an excuse to run. Again, the advice from Dorje rings true here.Quote:
They were a kd without CF that drafted and trained. We went to both collect acres and make sure they didn't pose a threat to us.
Settlers refused all our offers to CF.
'CF'. That's a joke? Lots of kds get that.Quote:
No one is questioning that. Same as we refused to give them a CF since their terms was a joke.
Nope, I would have hoped they wave me and gotten a free farm war, OR I would give them a free CF. That's what any smart KD would do.Quote:
In regards to being threatened, we had no CF and they trained. You would have done the same. Everyone would. You are just making this into a circus number to try to justify an upcoming 2 on 1 vs us.
I wouldn't ruin my prep because I feel entitled to land from a ghetto 3 days pre-conflict, I can tell you that. In fact... we gave
We didn't give them any advice to stall.Quote:
And we know we have a conflict coming and we were ready to take that conflict. But since settlers stalled, with your advise, we are in this situation now.
And that, is completely on you giving settlers bad advise.
This is 100% on you, and no one else. Go read the advice from Dorje a third or fourth time until it sinks into your brain. This is how your leadership wants you to play.
If they weren't hostile when Havoc waved in, then you aren't hostile when we served notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdorje
Sorry.
The REAL difference? Settlers are a ghetto significantly smaller than you, and had offered you a CF -- which you declined because you wanted to bully them. So all the advice that you and ASF gave about not entering into other conflicts when you have one coming up? They absolutely apply here, because you had a conflict coming and opted to try to fight someone else instead.
Oh, and dorje? That quote is entirely applicable, because it was about behavior before notice was even served. It's about getting that CF instead of training up to wave them. For example, the paraphrased version of it is 'The reason Emeriti didn't agree to CF settlers (short duration, ending right after conflict -- just like CR did with CP!) is because they wanted to dodge'. This is furthered by you actually trying to use them to dodge, the extent of the bullying (trying to force 10k & and extension from us), and your poor prep.
So those are not real logs? Are you sure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithras
10k acres for CF was not an offer you made?
Ok.Quote:
[16:08:33] <@zapanap> [16:07:45] <chris_keeling> <jdorje> 10k was the initial ask
[16:08:33] <@zapanap> [16:07:45] <chris_keeling> <jdorje> i dont see why we'd drop from that
[16:08:33] <@zapanap> [16:07:45] <chris_keeling> <jdorje> but it depends on the cf duration
You don't have a 1v1 fight with settlers. You're bullying a ghetto that just wanted a CF and demanding 10k+ acres from them. At the time we served notice, you had taken 10k acres and they had not hit back in over 12h, satisfying the requirements as laid out in the Havoc/Sanc/AMA situation for not being hostile.
I don't understand why anyone even tries to argue with CRnCR or Expendables prior to that, they have amazing PR people. Zaup is solo handling all of Emeriti right now; take notes kids.
#GetYourPoundOfFlesh
which would of been fine if the cf went up? but when settlers starting hitting back doesnt that kind of retroactively make it an extended hostile?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
Nope, it wasn't hostile at the time notice was given. You would need a reset clause to cover the other piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
the meter was 0-15+ right? thats "hostile" on the meter. If settlers cf'ed up you could argue that the "fight" ended when the last hit before the cf went up was made, however the meter would have still read hostile. That would seem reasonable as thats akin to randoming out i mean if i hit a gheto to 20 points but they never touch me what do i care if i get waved for a real war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
In contrast if i hit a gheto to 20-30-40+ points with the intent on trying to force a 150 meter autowar and they start hiting me back its pretty obvious that there is an active hostile going i just waved an inept kd.
Meter is irrelevant, they weren't fighting back in any way and there was no button present. No ops afaik, no cow plan, no hit plan, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
The posts from asf make this clear - you can't just wave ghettos indefinitely and be protected.
fair enough, i always thought that if the ghetto you were waving was fighting back it was still considered a real hostile since auto declare can happenQuote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
i.e. it just seems like if they are "now" in an active hostile that would have started from the same time the first hits began, not when a kd started retaling. Otherwise next time u have an "arranged" top war starting jan 5, and our cf ends jan 8 all i have to do is ask the kd your waving to hold of hitting for 3 hours, I then notice you, let them start hiting/war and i get to wave you the second you exit eowcf instead of needing to hold my notice till then. Note: im NOT saying thats whats going on here but it seems like its a bad precedent to set.
Persain- the precedent was already set for that play by Proteus.
Somehow most of the top managed to avoid doing it, or putting themselves in the situation emeriti has placed themselves here. Why do you think that is?
It's because they understand what's going on and communicate to solve problems. When they realized the conflict was lost, rather than trying to escape via settlers, the normal response is to give cf for land...then look for gains opportunities to get caught back up. 12k acres - what our initial ask would have been - doesn't set them back far. Then they can train up and push settlers if they want without this ticking clock.
But the story would have been much clearer, rather than changing every day as we learn more. Like the difference between they wouldn't cf and they wouldn't give acres.
Look im not saying this doesn't look like an obvious dodge/last ditch maneuver/desperate attempt to not lose the age. All im saying is that it seems like the way the hits/notice plays out encourages a real coordinated 2v1-ish NEXT time to really mess with someone. And from my memory no kds have really done what im saying (even Proteus) with real coordination since in the past ABS would either hide it better or threaten to GB down anyone who tried to pull it on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
From what i recall the past most kds just waited out what is now a real hostile to re-give notice. I remember in one of the past 3-4 ages pyro had a 3+week hostile as they ground down someone (stoners?) and everyone just let them be untill stoners finally gave a cf even though stoners had stoped hiting after week 2. Simians used to do this kind of thing (while i dont wanna divert the thread).....they'd say !@#$@# you if my notice isnt valid then i'll give it later and just make you PAY for being a dick.
Again not saying they have a right to endlessly dodge using ghettos but it seems strange that THESE events go Emeriti waves, CR notice give, Settlers start hitting...hostile becomes real. Real hostile commences till settlers either "give up" (the sanc-ama-mercy example) or agree to a cf and CR gets to start hitting instantly.
I love it, wasn't Zauper in Emeriti last age?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
Yes, this is accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
I don't understand why BB isn't in here explaining why it's lame that CR isn't offering to CF Emeriti for free...
I don't understand why you choose sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Protector is probably just being politically correct by fighting floggers battles ;-) can you imagine how irritating that can be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I'm sure he's built for it tho. I'm a fan.
PS. A diplo vacuum in this instance would be everybody in this conflict doing exactly what they intended to: Cello hits Emeriti, Emeriti hits Settlers, Settlers hit The U. Anyone else who sees blush in the water play their hand.
I'm not advocating a freak out, just a limited riot in the top 5.
I don't understand why the TFC reunion is being held in this thread at 00:19. :(
Off Topic: I see the lawyers are on the case. Can someone tell me if I need to brush up on The Absalometric Book of Law chapter "The Pincer" or the Absalometric Guide to Military Field Tactics. Ta!
I haven't. I think I've said 2 things in this thread. The first was an obvious response as to why Emeriti wouldn't exactly be mr. nice guy doing diplo with BB. The second was poking fun at the scenario I commented on previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by bombdigie
But yea, go ahead and keep assuming stuff lol
So much testosterone drama!!!! I mean, I'm a chick and argue with u guys all the time in game due to my estrogen 'issues'. I guess its in my 'nature' if you wish.
But for real... you guys 'argue' still over **** that happened years or even a decade ago and bring that with you to current date.
I appreciate your commitment to the game, but I have to say I sit back and I see high school trolling and a whole lot of wasted RL time from u guys with these pointless 'discussions as to who did what and didnt do what'
And with that said, I just wasted 5 mins out of my life to post ^^^^
Wtf are you smoking? I sent Kremlin and Erv to diplo with you guys as soon as we started hitting and asked for a little more time because they wrecked my prov with ops. That was 48 hours before you hit. You mysteriously went idle as did all your leaders. Then 24 hours before you were to give us a button I tried. To be honest I sent Erv and Kremlin to diplo you guys because I feel disgusted after talking to you people. We didn't want to dodge war which I told you numerous times before you hit us. I asked for more time. You clearly took our Intel and knew we were wrecked. So you decided to get free acres instead of a war. So don't even bring me into your bull**** play. You hit into our hostile when we showed you clear proof it was a legit hostile. You ruined our war with settlers who clearly served us notice and had no plans on even bothering you. You keep **** playing and II stupidly stick up for you people when you got gangbanged.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdorje
This thread is about The U vs. Settlers, get back on topic PalemQuote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I gave applause to zauper for digging up ancient logs and educating us in the history of Utopia. One question that remains unanswered in my mind is why CR is so intend on backing up Settlers 1. the claim is that you guys are not allies.
2. emeriti was horribly prepped and not ready to war you
If those claims are true, then to my less than superstar mind, Emeriti training up, waving settlers for land (and would only cf for more land but would still give CR the time to serve notice w/o this noticing into "hostile" business.), would give CR an even bigger advantage. Those land would not be able to be drafted/trained in time at the expiration of notice. So essentially more land for CR and bigger WW bonus. But instead the move was for Settlers to hit 6 points at Emeriti, wait for turn of the month to drop into 4 points, serve notice, 1 tick later Settlers full wave in. The above claims sound fishy...
@Emeriti, since you are losing the debate until Persain raised legit concerns for precedents that this is setting up..I wont poke holes for now.
Please fine tune the propaganda machine and ready for another round. When in doubt, ask bombidiji. He at least spinned his bs with humor.
Thank you very much. Continue on gents.
Emeriti was refusing to CF Settlers unless we gave them an extension -- forcing us to get involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfghy
When the role was reversed and we were the much weaker kd and asked for an extension from emeriti their answer was hitting us. So they can't really QQ to much.
So you're saying you didn't ask them to wave into your hostile?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrystal Palace
Im sure this have been covered plenty of times before.. If a kd wants to cf you and you just keep waving them to be able to do the bs hostile claim its what we call a fake hostile. When kds do cfs most of the time its with the "no notice into all kind of bs" but rarely i see fake hostile mentioned in those terms so this should be all legit.
If i were abs i would be pissed of now though, but if abs was in ExExtCRnCR position im about 96.5% sure they would have done the exact same thing. Im pretty sure fake hostile got a whole page dedicated to it in the absalom book of law so this should not be that hard to settle(rs).
ps. zauper a small advice is to just ignore mithras he have no intention of ever see reason his whole function in discussions is to try to piss you off which apparently serve some kind of function since they still let him talk for the kd. I doubt the intention is to get people to like their kd more though.. but im probably just not smart enough to comprehend the advance pr/diplo tactic that he is using.
Why wont anyone think of the topic :'(
I mean he asked me if I had the authority to make deals for the kingdom, so this is pretty spot on. I know diplo sucks, but it's probably the most important part of your kingdom. It's unwise to delegate it to amateurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by vir
Asl?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loons
no we did not invite them to hit into our hostile. parth seriously destroyed my prov because calle went off the wall and started hitting them to try and grow before emeriti war and gave them ops. parth didnt like the hits and started whooping our asses. so we started waving. at that point i sent people to diplo emeriti. not to ask out of the war we said we would fight but time to close relations with parth and recoup from that. I went to them and offered a war. they didnt come to me. i asked them if they wanted to do a war. i even offered to not grow and stay same size. they said it wasnt needed since they would be growing anyway. yes they were far far bigger than us. we didnt care. we want to fight. so them thinking we tried to dodge is bull****. no where did i ask for them to not war us. so they have no right to say **** now that it is happening to them. they where taking our intel every couple of hours since the point i asked them for war. so they knew we were getting our asses handed to us by parth.
Just a heads up to those keeping track...
Settlers have sent an in game CF request to Emeriti. They've refused to discuss terms with Settlers but in good faith it has been offered.
Zauper has taught you well :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sn0wballz
9/10 you forgot one thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Meep
http://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uplo...0f90d87b4.gif?