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I disagree. Properly run avians will dominate any common core race. Orcs kill, but they can't ambush. We must find the answer elsewhere.
To point, I'm running an undead cleric and was bracketed by an orc war hero on top and undead tac on the bottom. I'm still here. No I'm not that good, I'm saying two avians would've left me a pile of mush.
I don't know how you are disagreeing Strato, I've posted the answers, I might not be 100% correct but I'm certainly closer to the correct ones than "flogger is bad setups".
Prep is part of the play. I don't get how it can really get that screwed up over 96 hours especially without much action throughout the age unless it's a race/personality issue. Free draft helps in these preps but it should be offset by the significantly cheaper elite and slightly better science.
It looks like BB significantly underestimated pf+bg+emerald+orc combat losses or they would have never let themselves get hit army home. Then that snowballed since emeriti already had the military advantage. Attacking fast looks great on paper, but 10% hospitals means you'll also be losing troops far more frequently.
The whole ambush thing is overrated if all attacks are triple/quad taps. No one can commit enough generals to ambushing and spreading their armies out.Quote:
Originally Posted by StratOcastle
BE sucks, no amount of hospitals will make you not lose troops. We have both clerics and warriors mind you. I've ran 35% hospitals while I was whoring on my warrior which gave me 70% reduced losses but that was on a stellar BE. I don't think the core of problem happened there.
It all started with Emeriti simply having more GC stock since they:
1) ended their conflict with Green way earlier into the age than BB did with WSK
2) prepped better in general, they have players that want to crown and sacrifice more than BB does I believe
Add to that the fact the only advantage BB had was diminished by Emeriti forcing to farm Pandas giving them their Orc calves (killers) while BB already had more bigger Avians so hadn't benefited that much from taking land there. What was BB supposed to do in this situation? Just let Emeriti farm alone and take the age for free?
Anyway, this is all how I see things, I'm no expert.
In this instance "prep" does not mean having enough time to get ready, having resources to get ready, etc. but rather decisions made by both sides during the pre-notice & notice period.
Pandas offered land for a long CF to both BB & Emeriti alike as they had cfs expiring with both kingdoms around the same time and wanted an extension (which they wouldnt get for free from either kd).Quote:
Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija
Your post sounds a bit as if Pandas favored Emeriti by wanting to give them acres and BB had no choice but to take acres as well. Prior to hostile starting BB was approximately 8K bigger than Emeriti. Pandas did not favors to Emeriti this age, earlier in the age they waved us and demanded 15% of our acres for a CF which was all the result of us getting tripple teamed OOP and having to fight an uphill battle relative to kds that had an 'uneventful' oop. Not trying to be negative or anything here, we have a lot of respect for you guys just wanting to highlight this post as its not fully accurate.
Also individual player effort pro pro.
Pandas didn't have favoritism in mind. The situation favored Emeriti more than it did BB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
dI meant there is no significant difference between avians/orcs. Avians have cheaper troops and orcs have free draft, which more or less cancel out each other depending on how much/how long you run arms (an avian could choose to have 20-25% arms pre-emergency-draft).Quote:
Originally Posted by jwuzi
The major mistakes BB made IMO are that:
1. ****ty pump
2. They couldn't reach the humans
3. Once they couldn't reach the humans, they simply shouldn't have tried even with conquest
Same mistake Pandas made vs us, too much focused on UBs while forgetting the most important fight --> the core fight.
I hope BB has a plan B to get back into this, else it's gonna be an uphill battle for us vs Em :D
Edit:
4. They didn't use me.
Ze arch enemy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
lets all ponder this for a moment...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
NW range is a weird thing, I mean if you listen to Godly he'd say you need low NW elites but... look at the high NW Orcs, how is it bad to have 9k Orcs being able to reach 14k or whatever Avians.
Guess Godly didn't actually war much :P
Nice out-of-context post :D we were talking about prep cost u nub.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Utopian
Obviously orc/warrior is gonna stomp avian/cleric, really a no-brainer. Mixing cleric and warrior is a very dumb move as well. I don't get why KDs (especially in the top) want to be so smart about stuff. Take Emeriti, straightforward yet so strong!
An Avian/warrior on 18 epa would've easily reached those hummies btw.
Also, no offense meant to the people in BB, I'm telling them these things in private as well :D
Godly is referring to OOW whoring capabilities. In the past few ages that CR won they basically whored so well that wars were merely an exercise in collecting land.Quote:
Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija
Orcs are able to upfeed/downfeed better because of the gains more than nw efficiency. They are a bit of a special case.Quote:
Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija
I picked warrior because in trench wars the extra gen is nice, don't know why **** was split up, you'll have to ask LS about that like I did, the answer I got was, too late to change now, like why even make a decision if you don't know why you made it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
Ye I know Godly was referring to whoring capability, hence the comment.
I really don't want to get into a back in forth, I have lots of respect for flogger, prot, BB/OS, and you've been all class this fight. This is basically two kds competing for land chart having a late age war and extremely clean & professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija
I don't agree that the Pandas situation really favored us for a couple of reasons. We would have preferred to engage them and fight them for acres, that way we would be in position to benefit from it. Its always good when you can engage a kingdom yourself and work hard to gain their acres rather than that kd having you and another kd take their acres.
Also couple of things from that deal. Coss was running kd at the time and made deals with us and BB. Our deal gave us 3k more acres than BB was supposed to get (part of this was because Pandas really were really unreasonable against us earl in the age waving us and making insane acre demands while coss was away (which he acknowledged). BB & Pandas cfed without conflict earlier in the age. So really take what we got from Pandas and subtract 5.5k from it.
So the earlier deal from coss was 3k more for us than for BB (coss' offer not ours). However, coss had left the kd and when it was time to collect remainder of acres, in place leadership had changed the deal and given BB equal acres to us even though it wasnt part of deal and you were already 10k+ above us.
Additionally when collecting acres, Pandas #1 faery province was only breakable by one province, and that was Emeriti's human cow which was in range (first hit on it for 500a). Pandas then ended up sending out military on that province which let BB cows gain significant acres on it which they otherwise would have not been able to break.
Also the last point, I reached out to protector to extend our cf given we had other targets in mind at the time but he respectfully declined. So in all fairness, we did not do anything wrong here. We got noticed by you guys and are simply fighting back in an honorable war.
As I said before ,we have nothing but respect for you guys.
Working hard for acres > free acres? You must be trolling. Absolutely absurd.
Like you said, BB was 10k acres larger yet you demanded to gain more land than BB from a KD falling apart and you did. The whole situation pissed off pretty much everyone in BB, I doubt that was the sentiment in Emeriti as well. Be honest here. Anyway I have no quarrel with Emeriti, they played a relatively clean age, probably have the best overall roster and deserve to win the age if they do. Talking about past waves etc. is not fair though. Everyone gets waved. Think we were waved by both WSK and that Jester DBers whatever that spectacle is, we were ahead at start of age but it felt like some KDs were rather determined to diminish that lead, I think you can relate (the similar issues you've had with CR etc. at the very start).
U know, there was also a 3rd KD. That KD received none and even got dealbroken, an act which literally NONE of the supposed "top" that insists on certain morals policed to maintain the rules you want in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Looked like you had that farmpolicing covered yourself barty :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
Aye, I know how it goes. Since the top doesn't care if a KD that is not "one of them" gets DBed, I have to rely on my own people! The "new people" are up and coming though!Quote:
Originally Posted by Binar
LOL you told me all age that you got kds on standby just for that reason! haha, if you wanted my help you should have just asked for it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta
No matter how they were giving acres, be it just to 1 or to 2 or to all 3, all acres are not created equal. Emeriti was in a better nw position to take unwhorable acres from Pandas and with orc gains, they had substantial growth on provinces going from 4k to 6-7k. Only a few of course. BB got to put some extra acres on their smallest two big avians which was significant as well. IMHO, putting more acres on the top orcs allowed Emeriti to get those orcs much closer to the Avians in BB, which completely changed the complection of the fight. Acres placement is incredibly important since both sides had limited pool. Plus it would have taken much longer for the orcs to get to the size they were at the beginning of the fight through exploring which would have affected gold stacks. No matter how we slice it, that pandas debacle clearly affected the fight going forward and shouldn't have happened in the first place. If you don't want to compete and want to drop, just raze yourselves off so you're not chart shaping. No matter how the acres are given, someone is bound to get an advantage by hitting first, by having better nw placement to take acres in chunks, better off at the time, etc. All of it was dumb and shouldn't have happened at all.
Emeriti paid Munk to take down his site to **** BB.
Just saying.
yeah thats really to our advantage when our waves overlap lol :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Pillz
Return time was my point about the ambush aspect. Thus relay taps. I can see that BeastBlood wanted avian core to have the potential to go full active, but I'd imagine it's partly left on the table for their goal orientation.
I confess I'll have to get in one of these and see what's going on. Not trying to dispense tactics on great strategists, I'm trying to get a feel for how it unravels. Yeah, I get the prep stuff, but my thinking is an avian can rope-a-dope, ambush and raze from the slingshot.
Was munkbot going down the reason you guys were so slow waving last night? Thankfully we'd just gotten most of our wave off before it or we'd have had to...calculate defenses for ourselves.
Orc free draft is massively more powerful than avian cheaper troops. When you're pumping soldier cost quickly skyrockets to 200 per soldier. And when you're staring at each other in fortified it stays there (though with fort bonus). We were able to draft through the whole fort-off and extend our troop advantage significantly. I believe we had 3.9m troops to their 3.6m when fortified was dropped.
Everyone loves how avian can't be ambushed, but ambush is pretty bad. Maybe you can get a gains bonus, but it's not a very big one. If someone 5x taps you and you 5x ambush back you're taking half the acres for 75% the attack time. Only real use is in making your chains better, but since avian has lower incoming to begin with even a -50% gains orc is going to have an amount of incoming acres competitive with the avian at any particular time. Orc +gains makes chaining
Both avian and orc get attacker bonuses amounting to +50% gains.
Orc has higher offense which gives you more flexibility in each wave. To wit, it's much harder to get unbreakable to them (our humans would have had no chance to be ub to orc cows). And of course the kills bonus is pretty overwhelming. You can't benefit much from hospitals (or any other building of course) in a fight like this (our kingdoms have a combined 0.3 peasants an acre, with an average of 58% be).
We had 400-500m more gc than BB when notice was given.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdorje
I am reminded of the age that Sanc went with Orc Warriors? and got completely curb stomped because of ambushes on their elites. I want to say it was in war vs. Playboys but I'm not sure.
You're thinking of a different kingdom.
Looking at rankings I am going to say it was age 42 before the Awar or age 43. Of course you may have won the war but I'm pretty sure you had lost a war because your orcs were getting ambushed left and right. And I'm only guessing it was Playboys, it might not have been.
People get acres from people at all parts of the age, it's how the game works. We were planning on noticing and fighting pandas had they not reached out with a deal, unless they were willing to reset themselves, there is no way to avoid giving acres to our big orcs. I'd had preferred to just fight them because our deal with your kd had an auto extension clause for fights which was based on spirit of deal of us not vulturing each other and goodwill between our kds. If not pandas, we also had FS in range with just 48h notice. You guys were 8k bigger before fight began and chose to notice - I actually asked prot to extend cf. we played an extremely clean age and started out this age by getting triple hostiled oop which completely set us back so I'm not sure what you are upset about here. Going into this fight I felt it was an even war with you have a slight advantage and prot agreed with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale
Thank you for the explanation, jdorje.
I'd imagine the elves are controlling the avian BR advantage handily, based in the lock they've got on the center.
boooo....looks fake war to me!!!
The Emeriti alignment looks very similar to AMA as mentioned before. The imposing belt of elves stands between an almost 800k gap in the BeastBlood core and flying cows. I'm curious how the faery core is doing(?)
Both kingdoms had ~4k t/ms not really out of choice but necessity. Pushing those provinces up to 6k would have cost enough pool to lose the cow fight.
Avian birthrate does not do anything here. Today our two kingdoms are up to a combined 170k peasants. Yesterday it bottomed out at around 100k. Avian birthrate amounts to something like 500 peasants an hour.
Avians being out gained in a min time war i didn't expect. Especially with button
I think Anrold said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzmAaJtnKtQQuote:
Originally Posted by Smitty87
BB Spend to much time to make the emblem :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty87
From the Intel that I had pre war, BB went in too defensive. Not enough planning was made with respect to the training ratios for the core & banks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty87
Its been5 ages now,I dont get why topkds don't trust that bb doesn't wanna play serious, if they did they wouldnt reject me from joining