Can we talk about IP blocks?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrickyDicky

You say there are not many complaints about IP blocks. I think that is because alot of people like myself just dont like to complain. I play in a KD with 2 of my co workers and we are all IP blocked because we play at work on the company server. We simply try to work around it as best we can. And we dont complain because we dont see a solution to it in the near future.

i am not a tech savy guy who can provide you the solution to this problem, but it seems there are alot of very smart people who may be able to figure something out

---

This is my point. There are a great number of players out there who work around the IP block on a daily basis, and if it wasn't there we would recruit a hell of a lot more people. I currently work at an IT company with 120 employees, I could probably recruit 20 of them if I wanted to, maybe 2-3 to my own kd, but there's no way I will do that if it means I'm blocked from interacting with a whole bunch of other provinces after that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

This is my point. There are a great number of players out there who work around the IP block on a daily basis, and if it wasn't there we would recruit a hell of a lot more people. I currently work at an IT company with 120 employees, I could probably recruit 20 of them if I wanted to, maybe 2-3 to my own kd, but there's no way I will do that if it means I'm blocked from interacting with a whole bunch of other provinces after that.

---

Where would the issue be? You mean that you can only play from work and none of your co-workers nor you have any internet at home? Or all 20 of you live at the same place and share the same IP? There is a lot of talks about how there would be a massive flood of players joining just cause IP-blocks would be removed but whats most likely is that there would be no bigger increase in players from that. Thats not the biggest issue why people dont join.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korp

Where would the issue be? You mean that you can only play from work and none of your co-workers nor you have any internet at home? Or all 20 of you live at the same place and share the same IP? There is a lot of talks about how there would be a massive flood of players joining just cause IP-blocks would be removed but whats most likely is that there would be no bigger increase in players from that. Thats not the biggest issue why people dont join.

---

I didn't say it is the biggest issue, but it is one issue. I have 5-6 work mates I would invite to my kd in a heart beat if there wasn't an IP block. Of course we all have our separate Internet accounts at home, but we would also all need to play from work. The current implementation of the block means if we all go online from work and then at home we're still blocked.

A better solution would be to identify our user patterns and realize that these 6 provinces share an IP for 9 hours on fixed times monday to friday, then have separate IP at night and weekends = clearly coworkers and not a multi.

Same old thang. You wanna cheat leagle. Spend some rl gold and get more than one isp. Spectrum, ATT, google, work, phone, local library. U guys are lazy and poor.

I'm not sure if shelling out money for multiple internet providers to play more provinces in a free game that has no rewards for "winning" is a good indicator for poverty.

Also, I'd rather have no internet than have Spectrum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kendy

Same old ****. You wanna cheat leagl. Spend some rl gold and get more than one isp. Spectrum, ATT, google, work, phone, local library. U guys are lazy and poor.

---

How would me having 20 ISPs at home change the fact I share an IP with my coworkers?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

I didn't say it is the biggest issue, but it is one issue. I have 5-6 work mates I would invite to my kd in a heart beat if there wasn't an IP block. Of course we all have our separate Internet accounts at home, but we would also all need to play from work. The current implementation of the block means if we all go online from work and then at home we're still blocked.

A better solution would be to identify our user patterns and realize that these 6 provinces share an IP for 9 hours on fixed times monday to friday, then have separate IP at night and weekends = clearly coworkers and not a multi.

---

That's not a solution chadde, that just allows someone to xlog 6 accounts from their office.

The IP block just stops people interacting with each other, it doesn't stop you recruiting your 6 workmates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop

That's not a solution chadde, that just allows someone to xlog 6 accounts from their office.

The IP block just stops people interacting with each other, it doesn't stop you recruiting your 6 workmates.

---

Sorry I think we're misunderstanding each other. What I am proposing is more of an automatic white list. So, the six of us log on from work - we're IP blocked. Bam. But then after recognizing that day in and day out we all have separate IPs after 6PM and on weekends, I think you can safely assume we're working together. We all have a few unique IPs, home internet, phone etc, but we share ONE on very specific days and hours. How could I possibly xlog that without actually getting twelve different IPs?

Edit: I assumed 12 IPs on the grounds that most people play from their phone and from home. So two unique IPs each.

Edit 2: Also, there are no final "solutions" there are only ways of making your system smarter. Anti cheater/hacker measures are an ongoing process, not something you just implement in a day and it's solved. Hence the importance of collecting user data and analyze behaviour.

What he's saying there will be no guarantee that each one of you will log the accounts at work might be just for example

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korp

What he's saying there will be no guarantee that each one of you will log the accounts at work might be just for example

---

Well if we one of my new recruits never logs on from work him and I would never be blocked from each other anyway.

Might just be you for example* clarifying

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

Sorry I think we're misunderstanding each other. What I am proposing is more of an automatic white list. So, the six of us log on from work - we're IP blocked. Bam. But then after recognizing that day in and day out we all have separate IPs after 6PM and on weekends, I think you can safely assume we're working together. We all have a few unique IPs, home internet, phone etc, but we share ONE on very specific days and hours. How could I possibly xlog that without actually getting twelve different IPs?

Edit: I assumed 12 IPs on the grounds that most people play from their phone and from home. So two unique IPs each.

Edit 2: Also, there are no final "solutions" there are only ways of making your system smarter. Anti cheater/hacker measures are an ongoing process, not something you just implement in a day and it's solved. Hence the importance of collecting user data and analyze behaviour.

---

Again, that just means if you choose to under your system you would be free to xlog all the accounts while at work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop

Again, that just means if you choose to under your system you would be free to xlog all the accounts while at work.

---

Not without paying for 12 different IPs? The cross reference to the night time/weekend IPs is an important factor here. If after 6PM the accounts completely spread out and use different IPs, different ISPs and devices, it is obviously not me xlogging 6 accounts. Or if I am, I'm way too dedicated to this game and should seek treatment.

It would be really great to get some feedback from Uto devs in here btw. Most of the responses I get are from forum mods, trolls and lunatics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

Not without paying for 12 different IPs? The cross reference to the night time/weekend IPs is an important factor here. If after 6PM the accounts completely spread out and use different IPs, different ISPs and devices, it is obviously not me xlogging 6 accounts. Or if I am, I'm way too dedicated to this game and should seek treatment.

---

You gotta learn the difference between multi and xlogging. Xlogging you have 12 different people playing but you log them all at work instead of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

It would be really great to get some feedback from Uto devs in here btw. Most of the responses I get are from forum mods, trolls and lunatics.

---

Bishop is game support so he's the one that handles all those cases. That's a pretty childish attitude you got going there though people have different opinions than you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korp

You gotta learn the difference between multi and xlogging. Xlogging you have 12 different people playing but you log them all at work instead of them.



Bishop is game support so he's the one that handles all those cases. That's a pretty childish attitude you got going there though people have different opinions than you.

---

1. Bishop brought up xlogging, and it's the same mechanism anyway.
2. My attitude is fine, he was filed under "forum mods", not "trolls" or "lunatics". I'm sure you can guess which category you're in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

Not without paying for 12 different IPs? The cross reference to the night time/weekend IPs is an important factor here. If after 6PM the accounts completely spread out and use different IPs, different ISPs and devices, it is obviously not me xlogging 6 accounts. Or if I am, I'm way too dedicated to this game and should seek treatment.

---

So you xlog your mates accounts all day at work. The ip block was brought in specifically because people were doing this - logging for their housemates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

It would be really great to get some feedback from Uto devs in here btw. Most of the responses I get are from forum mods, trolls and lunatics.

---

Bishop Bishop is online now
Game Support

You've already had the owners reply in here. Your suggested solution doesn't address the issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

1. Bishop brought up xlogging, and it's the same mechanism anyway.
2. My attitude is fine, he was filed under "forum mods", not "trolls" or "lunatics". I'm sure you can guess which category you're in.

---

Bishop isn't *just* a forum mod, Bishop is THE LAW.
That said, that would also be a more appropriate title for him so he doesn't fall under the same category as a nub like Palem :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop

Bishop Bishop is online now
Game Support

You've already had the owners reply in here. Your suggested solution doesn't address the issue.

---

Yes it does? What am I missing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

Yes it does? What am I missing?

---

Your proposal doesn't do anything to stop people xlogging.

Rather it encourages people to xlogg.

this is really really really annoying in war.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by protector

Bishop isn't *just* a forum mod, Bishop is THE LAW.
That said, that would also be a more appropriate title for him so he doesn't fall under the same category as a nub like Palem :-)

---

Can confirm

I am sorry for all my other post in this thread. They were secondary places to play and sarcasm.

I suppose I am the only player with unlimited data on my phone. I can play anytime anywhere. [almost]
I don't understand this thread. I can confirm I am more nub than Palem.

What are the current suggestions for improvement to the current system?

As JeffT mentioned (I didn't go back very far to read the entire thread) we are very open to accepting suggestions for improvements to the current system.

After reading what I have, I may be able to present some ideas to the team that could potentially provide a solution. Although, one of the main reasons JeffT touched on was the system as it works now is a massive time saver with it's prevention. The amount of legitimate people (and I don't mean to make the legitimate IP-Blocked people feel insignificant) is minor in comparison to the amount of work involved in policing what would inevitably come from opening up the system. We don't have personal experience with this but the current systems in place were discussed at length with the previous owners to give us in depth knowledge of how they work and the degree to which they are effective. Unfortunately, we don't have the man-power to perform this policing, and neither did they which was the basis for the implementation of the current system.


Also, to clarify chadde. You may be misunderstanding what Bishop is saying, you are asking to have your 6 co-workers able to log and interact because you're all separate people and can prove that by having unique home IP addresses and only sharing the work IP during business hours etc. That is all fine. The problem which Bishop is presenting is that there is nothing to stop any one of you (while at work) from logging into all 6 accounts because there's no way to detect who is who while you're at work, and that is the problem. For 9 hours each day any person can log into any number of the accounts that share that IP address undetectable. So, in theory we could whitelist the 6 of you for the reasons you state but how do we deal with determining who is logging the accounts while at work?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DavidC

What are the current suggestions for improvement to the current system?

As JeffT mentioned (I didn't go back very far to read the entire thread) we are very open to accepting suggestions for improvements to the current system.

After reading what I have, I may be able to present some ideas to the team that could potentially provide a solution. Although, one of the main reasons JeffT touched on was the system as it works now is a massive time saver with it's prevention. The amount of legitimate people (and I don't mean to make the legitimate IP-Blocked people feel insignificant) is minor in comparison to the amount of work involved in policing what would inevitably come from opening up the system. We don't have personal experience with this but the current systems in place were discussed at length with the previous owners to give us in depth knowledge of how they work and the degree to which they are effective. Unfortunately, we don't have the man-power to perform this policing, and neither did they which was the basis for the implementation of the current system.


Also, to clarify chadde. You may be misunderstanding what Bishop is saying, you are asking to have your 6 co-workers able to log and interact because you're all separate people and can prove that by having unique home IP addresses and only sharing the work IP during business hours etc. That is all fine. The problem which Bishop is presenting is that there is nothing to stop any one of you (while at work) from logging into all 6 accounts because there's no way to detect who is who while you're at work, and that is the problem. For 9 hours each day any person can log into any number of the accounts that share that IP address undetectable. So, in theory we could whitelist the 6 of you for the reasons you state but how do we deal with determining who is logging the accounts while at work?

---

1. Man power is plentyful within the community. Create a couple of github repos and encourage people to code and create pull requests.

2. If the 6 co-workers have been established as different people, does it really matter if one of them does an attack for another, maybe to help the new recruit get started? I would argue that that's acceptable. And really, what's the difference between one making two attacks and the two of them attacking separately but sitting at each other's desk helping out while they do it? And if you do want more granular control, just compare devices and browsers as well. If the two people that have been proven to be different people attack from two separate devices, isn't that enough? Who is going to recruit themselves 6 times and run around borrowing co-workers computers to do a wave? Seriously?

Edit: Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who has just been recruited and never played before. We want new people to join, right? The blocking only properly affects elite players who are committed enough to actually play several provs from separate IPs, and we all know it doesn't really stop anyone determined enough. But it does stop a lot of recruiting. It's a matter of weighing the good against the bad. If lifting the block meant doubling the player base, isn't it worth a few multi assholes? I would like to think most of us play this game honourably and with good intentions. #QueCommentsAboutMeBeingNaive

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

2. If the 6 co-workers have been established as different people, does it really matter if one of them does an attack for another, maybe to help the new recruit get started? I would argue that that's acceptable. And really, what's the difference between one making two attacks and the two of them attacking separately but sitting at each other's desk helping out while they do it? And if you do want more granular control, just compare devices and browsers as well. If the two people that have been proven to be different people attack from two separate devices, isn't that enough? Who is going to recruit themselves 6 times and run around borrowing co-workers computers to do a wave? Seriously?

---

It does because others have to pay for sitting creds...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Squee311

It does because others have to pay for sitting creds...

---

So make people pay to get on the whitelist after they've been determined to be different people by the algorithm. Most of us good, honest players would.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

So make people pay to get on the whitelist after they've been determined to be different people by the algorithm. Most of us good, honest players would.

---

sounds more pay to win than sitting creds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Squee311

sounds more pay to win than sitting creds.

---

How is it pay to win if you have been determined to be different people?

1. Algorithm concludes the players are unique
2. Players are presented with the choice of IP block or pay to get on the whitelist
3. They pay, algorithm keeps watching over them to make sure nothing in their pattern changes
4. Money for Utopia - more players in Utopia

you could literally make that determination... its a free license to x log w/o a sitter set. Oh jimmy isnt here atm but we are white listed guess i can just army in/out him.

It open abused as opposed to having to set a sitter and be locked out of your province.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Squee311

you could literally make that determination... its a free license to x log w/o a sitter set. Oh jimmy isnt here atm but we are white listed guess i can just army in/out him.

It open abused as opposed to having to set a sitter and be locked out of your province.

---

ok, then how about this... if two of the 6 hypothetical provs do log on from work they get blocked. But after work, once they get home and are on different IPs, the block is lifted? This is still after being determined to be different players. Is there a problem with that? This is solution suggestion no. 43 btw :) Would be great if someone else had a suggestion instead of just negative feedback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadde

1. Man power is plentyful within the community. Create a couple of github repos and encourage people to code and create pull requests.

---

I am a huge fan of this idea! We will need access to all of the privileged information to start building algorithms though: emails, passwords, logs of everything every player does every tick, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by octobrev

I am a huge fan of this idea! We will need access to all of the privileged information to start building algorithms though: emails, passwords, logs of everything every player does every tick, etc.

---

That's not how app development works, but thanks for trying.

How's it going to be able to identify anything without any of the necessary information?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by octobrev

How's it going to be able to identify anything without any of the necessary information?

---

Well, the user data wouldn't be disclosed to developers of course, but even if it was it's hopefully hashed and salted. The git project would be about the algorithm to detect and track user patterns, there is no need to have actual user data for that. Just a couple of demo accounts is enough. I get the feeling you don't know much about his subject?

Oh you just want people to imagine solutions as opposed to using analysis. I see now!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by octobrev

Oh you just want people to imagine solutions as opposed to using analysis. I see now!

---

No, Mr. Troll, the data comes AFTER the algorithm is implemented. First you build the tool to track user behaviour, then the tool collects user data, THEN you analyse said data. Does that make sense?

Also, you are clearly not a developer or have any expertice on the topic so I don't know why you're here.

I am not a developer! Was considering it from a machine learning perspective under the assumption that they already have a backlog of great data :(

If you're collecting the data anyway what's the difference exactly as far as who has access to what?