gains mods, in the past, have not been coded to impact massacre or raze.
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gains mods, in the past, have not been coded to impact massacre or raze.
But they should be topsy....
I just need to say, I do hate ToG being only merchants. I guess its needed, but I don't like it.
I disagree with how much people say avian is still not a viable attacker. That extra general... with warrior would be pretty brutal. I think I personally would still pair it with sage but that is because sage remains OP.
To be clear, I will say it AGAIN. If mystic only gives +50% channel science, then sage bonus should not be stronger than 25%. If you want sages to have 40, then mystic needs a buff (and rogue). Also that would be some other buffs to the other personalities. I think it is easier to nerf sage to 25-30%, but thats just me I guess.
Mystics and rogues have buffs...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
The ops for one is massive (MS and AW and Prop)
The +mana/stealth is also huge.
For a warring kd -- mystic and rogues easily top sage. Easily.
You see...all sage gets is the +40%. That's it. Granted, that's to all sciences...but that's building space of 15%-20% libraries
The bonuses on mystic and rogue include 10-15% build space from guilds and tds...they also gain mana/stealth which isn't something buildings can do, they also gain ops which isn't something buildings can do, and they still get the higher science bonus than save for their specific specialty.
No...their sci bonuses don't "need" to increase...
Drop their guilds/tds bonuses and yeah boost that science. Drop their mana/stealth and boost it even more.
That said, I think each personality should have their respective sci buff that outclasses sage.
Like merch +75% income science.
Tactician +50% tools science
Cleric +100% food science
War hero +50% pop science
Warrior +50% mil science
Something Along those lines would keep sage with a specialty of versatility, but not allowing them to ever outclass a personality specifically on their main role.
I kind of like that idea of science benefits for every different personality.
I think War Hero needs something more... They have a lot of interesting little side benefits.. but they are missing that one ability that actually makes them useable.
I come from a warring kingdom that usually ends in the top 10 honour.. and we tank dragons quite often. You would think War Hero would be a great personality for us.. but no it is still just unusable because the benefits from other personalities give instant use and instant reward. I think that War Hero needs to get the +1 offense spec. That way it synergizes with the spec to leet conversion well. Still not sure that would make War Hero Viable.. but it would be a good direction.
What if War hero's were able to have the ability: "May use peasants for offensive attacks and Dragon Killing, peasants used this way are treated as a 1/1 soldier (2/2 if halfer, and aggression affects them)" and "All peasants used this way die in combat"
That would be a very cool and neat ability. So basically it allows a War Hero to protect their armies somewhat from overpopulating by releasing peasants in a combat role (via attack or even dragon).
It would have to be balanced in a way that isn't OP. But realistically War Hero needs something that makes them a little overpowered or else they wont be chosen, because almost every other personality has a ridiculously overpowered ability in it. We just dont think of it as OP because we are so used to seeing them used, like Rogue/Mystic/Sage.. they have some really OP abilities and spells and ops in there, but we are just like.. well it is the typical mage personality so it is OK, or it is the typical rogue personality so it is OK.
So yes, these peasants can be used to boost an attack, or to slay dragon. It helps to reduce overpop damage. It has neat interactions with Halfling racials and Aggression.
I think it would be neat (but maybe too overpowered) but since your peasants all die in battle, perhaps they die first (before off specs/leets etc) or somehow protect against losses to your other troops (maybe not 100% protection, but maybe every 2 peasants used in combat protect 1 offensive spec or elite unit from dying).
It sounds powerful, so can be tweaked, but dont forget, it also can really really hurt your economy, so there is a balance. Yes peasants come back automatically every tick, but it hurts your income.. it leaves room for an enemy to put chastity on you and essentially nullify your use of 1 of your personality traits. So there are Pro's and Cons to it.. like every good personality should have.
I think it encourages eventful strategies, and I think neat little interactions that players can explore are what makes the game interesting.
I could not disagree with you more. Sages having higher mod wpa than most mystics I have seen even in the top is disgusting..... (not me, I know what I am doing, but the number of top 10 KD's last age with mystics lower in mod wpa than core sages was truly shocking). The same is true with mod tpa. If you think sages need something to balance a drop in their 40% down to 25%, fine, then give them double libs bonus (kinda like what Rogues have now.... Thats fair right?Quote:
Originally Posted by smercjd
The War Hero
+100% Honor Effects
Converts some Specialists into Elites on successful land attacks
Immune to Dragon effects
Immune to Greed
+50% War Science
Access to War Spoils
Starts with 400 elites
Um, that is because the Mystics is not researching their science into Channeling. I am playing a Rogue and I have higher WPA than some other mystics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Just give the +1 ospec to War Hero, as someone suggested.
Avian is only for that top whoring KD. Best example in recent time is the age that Pyro Crowned. Most thought Avian was going to be awesome, but Pyro won with weak dwarf/sage (sage was 30% and dwarf was 25% BE) + weak Orc (25% gains) tacts/ and one Avian and two UD Tacts.
And CR won b2b2b with Elf WH + Halfer Rogues + Orc clerics against 3 Avian cores.
I would only recommend the #1 whoring/randoming KD to go Avian since the whole idea behind Avians is to be land fat and there can only be one KD that is the biggest. I suppose Godly thinks his KD is better than Emeriti /BB's.
For the warring tier, Orcs is probably still the best pure attacker.
SAGE is only strong for whoring KDs because of the way CFs are set up to allow them to pump with very few military. And the way CFs are set up is directly related to the # of KDs competing for land crown. Less competitors for that crown directly translate to more time spent pumping.
For warring tier, SAGE KDs need a snowball effect from winning early wars. If you KD isn't so confident about winning early wars, best go with another personality.
sigh.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedPanda
No it is because "science begets science"
No one invests in only one thing. A sage will always be knocking on the mystic's door because when they invest in the top three, they are able to boost their rate and then invest heavier in the bottom three until they are investing as heavily or more heavily than mystics/rogues in the bottom three. 40% is too strong. If you don't understand that, then whatever......
It does not really matter that much to me, if sages are the way they are, then thats what we will end up playing again and everyone will call us bullies again, etc etc.
/me shrugs.
**edit**
Do this experiment.....
Consider a mystic investing at (likely) active science under whatever you think the optimal investment is. Now, take sage, invest its opening 40k books into 15K alchemy, 15K pop, 10K tools. Then set that sage to intensive. Run the sim one week with the sage investing evenly between the top three and the bottom three. Then tell me where their science is and then tell me, sage is not overpowered. ....
sages wouldn't have so much sci if you didn't cf each other with overly generous terms. *shrug*
mystic wpa is kinda weak tho, but it is usually stronger in kingdoms that can't benefit from luxury cfs. still, mystic is there for the spellbook and other perks like double guilds, not to have an automatic lock on wpa.
Sage vs mystic is simple. In a warring kingdom mystic is boss due to having ms and the ability to pump wizards at a faster rate. Now if you don't war often sage is boss. You have time to science and wizard pump. But if you want to fit 6-8 wars a age. Sage is simply to slow to be a tms period compared to a mystic.
sage is a t/m personality, that got so good that core races can use it too. but it's primarily a t/m personality, especially when faery had tog naturally.
Sage is fine for the majority of the server.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Its the top tier agreeing to let each other's sage pump with impunity that is the issue.
most sages in the game do not have that luxury.
I mean. Tbh 25% sci bonus AND 2x libs is probably a buff to what they already have...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
And yes, sage CAN fun higher wpa...but the point I'm making is they don't have the arsenal to turn the tide of war that a mystic has.
MS is so good. +1 mana is so good. +200 wizards and 2x guilds should allow mystics a HUGE head start in the early age. Yes those last two bonuses don't help much for the end of the age...but that's how it should be. Sage takes time to get there.
Ahh. *shines nails on sleevesQuote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
That was me ;)
I don't think you're understanding the difference...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Yes. Eoa sage beats mystic in terms of wpa because of your very long posts explaining this.
What I'm not sure you're getting is that mystic is a necessity for WARRING kds. I'm relatively new still and I'm confident that most kds dedicated to warring (not 1-3 wars but like 4+ wars in the age), will choose mystic over sage.
Also, you'll see mystics w lower wpa due to AW. Mystic is typically target #1 for AW and massacre.
A whoring kd SHOULD run more sages than mystic. It's THE choice, as you say. It will be incredible for the late age. A warring kd SHOULD run mystics because they need that early boost, they need the ops, they need yo 2x guilds to retrain wiz after mass and aw from wars, and they need the extra mana.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
It is mind set, a Sage wants to pump science while Mystics isnt in a pump mind set, then add in with the proper science investment in the right order and timing.
I have the highest science in my kingdoms for the past three ages...... and sages had their 50% bonus last age when I was playing a Mystic and still had a higher bonus than the sages in my kingdom.....
Sages are fine as they are, they are generalists so they can do a little of everything without special abilities/spells/ops of the other personalities.
Yes. Thank you. What noobium said.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
Yes thank you. What handofthrawn said.Quote:
Originally Posted by handofthrawn
Undead seems a little boring this age. What if we gave them mages fury or fanaticism. Something to change them up alittle.
Give them animate dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by handofthrawn
Give Warhero +50% war science.
Sage is fine.
Only if you're willing to run more than 20% of them all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by smercjd
"Humans: Combined with Warrior that's +40% OME... You can't be serious"
ya cmon that is kind of silly, what were you thinking? No province can defend against that... let me remind you that is RAW! have you forgotten about training grounds and science? Add another 40%
"Elf Needs Buff"
you guys pretty much took everything away. Its like an empty shell race now, like somebody else said
it doesnt really have a role now, its a like the basis of all races with no benefits or disadvantages
"Sigh...ok, I will have to chime in with Mage's Fury/Invisibility.
Mage's Fury should stay with Elf. Invisibility should stay with Halfling"
this is a no brainer
To Be Continued, have yet to read all of thread
Every single dwarf sage on the server can rebuild schools at any moment they feel like it and pump crazy sage science with their crazy sage income bonuses. The entire server can do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiggis
Stop talking about things you don't understand fully.
Swap OME from Human race and Warrior personality so Humans get OME DURING WAR and Warrior gets OME all the time?
Uh no...Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyB
Running 5% libraries with 2x library effectiveness bonus AND having +25% innate science effectiveness is already more than +40% science effectiveness...
I thought the same thing, but then human feels entirely too weak and warrior feels entirely too strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwijybow
Personalities don't have drawbacks (besides not being another personality or granting something a race already provides) and so having a +20% OME all the time w/o a crazy nerf like -20% gains is nasty :/
Can I plus 1 myself? Doing it mostly for war hero +1 ospec.Quote:
Originally Posted by smercjd
Really think that would answer a LOT of problems.
Would also like to add to those changes a suggestion to increase paradise based on size.
Not much. Like a very very small increase actually...but when you're 5k acres and dice for 3 -8 acres per spell...
Something around +1 acre per every 500-1000 acres ISH
on your changes, avian is weak, ork is also weak. Hiving halfer vermin gives vermin also to faery which they don't need.
Please include why you say those races are weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
Avian would be stronger than this age (+1 gen, +20% br, and cheaper elites)
Orc were too strong this age and needed a nerf. They are still incredibly strong. Removed clear sight which also removed it from faery and dropped elite cost... (Human also needed nerf and got such)
Faery gains vermin and chastity, but loses clear sight, mage's fury, and invisibility...
I genuinely like most of the changes, and the only post that made some sense for the admins to consider was that all the personalities gives their respective science category a boost.
Merchant - +50% alchemy
Warrior - +50% military
Tactician - +50% tools
Cleric - +50% food
War hero - +50% military (?)
I think that faery will never be an option for an attacker. Given all the bonuses, the top 3 attackers have a 150% bonus to attacking than the faery, and that's assuming the faery is dedicated solely to attacking. That said, I don't know what would change that. I tried giving them the +1 offensive spec, and it seemed to be overpowering. I'd maybe suggest giving them a +10% OME in war. They would still be the worst dedicated attacker, but at least on par with the avian in terms of strength.
I still think Human is too strong, they are the best attacker, beating out Orcs and Undead offensively by the numbers. I suggest changing their elite to a 6/2.
War Hero should gain some dragon slaying ability. *2 is too powerful, but a +1 to each troop sent would be okay. Also think 30%-50% less honor loss when attacked would be beneficial.
Sage should be lowered to 30%, especially if cleric is. You can't tell me that cleric was more powerful than sage.
Don't know if its been mentioned previously, but i see lots of talk about avian requiring a more active player to be able to shine. But arent those arguing that overlooking the fact that you can add up to 4 hours attacktime for extra gains? So when you have those 9hr attack times in war you can just add hours to counter any activity issue. So basicly by picking avian you get choose wether to utilize that speed or get ~15% higher gains. That and extra general is pretty neat when chaining someone deep.
Should avian get attacktime nerf because of it? No, this just makes them more versatile and playable by ppl limited to logging in twice per day. They still suffer from having a medoicre max opa compared to the other attacking races.
The science per personality suggestion is something I've been pushing ever since Rogue/Mystic got theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by calamity
Merch + 70% Alchemy
Warrior + 40% Military
Tactician +60 Tools
War Hero +50% Housing
Cleric +100% Food
Rogue + 90% Crime
Mystic +80% Channeling
Sage +40% ALL
(Not necessarily those numbers, but something along those lines)
Human is best OME, yes. But -20% Gains is particularly terrible...ESPECIALLY when pitted against orcs. Get an Emerald Dragon advantage on the Orc team and who cares what offense the humans have.
Dwarf is the one one IMO that should be nerfed to 6/2 Elite
If War Hero would get +1 O Spec that would solve everyone's problems. Faery COULD get that bonus but they'd be forced to play War Hero -- which is partially why +1 O Spec would be strong on their race bonus because they could still go mystic/rogue/sage. It would also allow much more versatility for War Heroes in general.
If the other personalities gain science effectiveness boosts...sage doesn't need to be nerfed at all. Just depends. I personally don't think they need to be nerfed...look at the popularity pick
there are nearly 800 clerics on the server and only 500 sages. That doesn't necessarily mean that Cleric is more powerful...as I've mentioned to someone else...it's about the strategy you're running. Warring kingdoms would benefit from Cleric over Sage most of the time.
Merchant/Tactician are the low picks so forcing ToG as a Merchant only and ideally CS as tactician only, I think, is a good thing.
Dwarf/Halfling were the low picks for Race...I think Dwarf only because they were easily overshadowed by Humans/Orcs/Undead because they weren't much different than the previous age, so I felt giving them 35% BE might be that extra nudge. Halfling was considered by most to be overwhelmingly weak this age...giving them back their +50% TPA is probably enough, but +20% population and even cheaper elites would make them VERY attractive though still unlikely to be a top pick.
It's a good point to make! Though keep in mind that using the +/- options on attacks yields higher military losses as well...which is already a relatively giant problem for the current avian in war - that is...any fast attack time strategy suffers from the military loss problem. Still, I'd be worried to war against a KD of Avian/Tactician Core, they could get in and get out before you even realized what happened! They could get in 8-12 Uniques (potentially 8-12 full chains, or 8-12 waves of max gains), then WD. War loss...but took all the acres and honor @_@Quote:
Originally Posted by fuge
Someone made a suggestion about giving tactician the first 1hr of the +/- option as no negative effects (same military losses as a regular attack w/o using it). I really liked that idea, TBH
I like the idea for war hero with the +1 spec actually, nice touch. I do disagree a little with your halfer assessment. I think they were raped this age, and the bonuses they received were just getting them back up to par with the rest of the races. That said, if you take away their +1 spec and give it to war hero, they fall below avian strength wise, and slightly above faery, which bleeds into my other argument where certain races just simply can't be effective attackers.Quote:
Originally Posted by smercjd
Also, correct, if science is added the other categories, sage doesn't need to be nerfed, but like you, I do believe cleric being nerfed makes no sense, just based on demographic. Attackers in warring kingdoms pick cleric because they are in a warring kingdom and have access to pitfalls.
The problem with saying human isn't overpowered offensively because they can be countered with a specific group of orcs or undeads, is that you can do that anyways. Some counters just work, but in the majority of kingdoms, this setup just isn't there. I think there needs to be a minor enough penalty to force humans to opt for more defense, and frankly, they don't have to compared to an orc or undead currently.
The +1 off spec for War Hero is a good suggestion, and makes the personality a lot more usable for all races.
I still think sages could use a tiny nerf to 30-35%. I've played sage over the past few ages (bank and attacker) I've been able to keep my self extremely op proof and its kinda silly. If the server reverts to human/dorf sages again we should just keep everything the same as age 63/64 or whatever it was.
Thanks about the stuff you liked!! Hope it gets implemented!!Quote:
Originally Posted by calamity
You don't think halfling with +20% pop (had +15%), +1 stealth (already had), +50% tpa, and -50% thief cost(already had), and even cheaper elites is enough of a buff?? And if they picked war hero, they would get the +1 o spec (with 20% pop they could hybrid AT pretty well).
I personally did think cleric was too strong this age, but it could be as you say... Due to overplayed and war necessity. Which is why noticing some key things: halfling w no hospitals, human with less gains, off with more kills, and if undead off losses were needed back to -50%...cleric suddenly because buffed. And emerald dragons, which again buffs clerics because they become the only static -mil loss besides undead. Additionally, removing of from dwarf gives cleric another tiny boost.
Hmm...I get what you're saying about humans. And unfortunately, I'll have to just say I can't really decide until I see it in action...I think that humans will be high preference in warring kds and less so in whoring...but I really don't k is so I'll back out of this debate lol. :)
Thanks. Hopefully the acceptance and favor of the community will yield implementation!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by boxerz