Outside Hits into War

Recently was in a war that involved outside hits (razing) into the kingdom we were warring (quite obvious who if you browse the forums at all).

I'd like to suggest some kind of adjusted mechanic to dissuade this. I realize we can't just make kingdoms unable to hit into warring kingdoms due to abuse potential.

What about something like honor loss, severe reduction in gains beyond what exists, massive +% to troop loss on those hitting into the kingdom, or remove the 15 acre minimum for razing. For the last one (suggestion from kdmate) offenders would still be able to hit into wars but not mass create new accounts and kill off chained sub 200 acre provinces.

It doesn't make sense to allow outside bullying or bad blood to spill into wars between legitimately warring groups.

Happy to hear arguments for/against, or other ideas others may have on this.

Just remove land-razing and make building-razing the default (with no minimum). Deleting land isn't fun.

How about:
Disable the ability to hit into a war which is not your own for the first 7 days since a prov was created?

I see no problem with the ability to hit into wars. I believe there is a problem with new prov spamming for that purpose.

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Originally Posted by SlightlyOverdosed

How about:
Disable the ability to hit into a war which is not your own for the first 7 days since a prov was created?

I see no problem with the ability to hit into wars. I believe there is a problem with new prov spamming for that purpose.

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Not a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by SlightlyOverdosed

How about:
Disable the ability to hit into a war which is not your own for the first 7 days since a prov was created?

I see no problem with the ability to hit into wars. I believe there is a problem with new prov spamming for that purpose.

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This is a good suggestion.

I also liked the one about razing only buildings like how raze functions inside war.

I'll keep my comments brief to avoid showing my cards, but in general I don't have a problem with the current system.

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or remove the 15 acre minimum for razing. For the last one (suggestion from kdmate)

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My idea. It's just retarded you basically use outside provinces to kill off chained provinces like that. IMO there should be only 2 options of prov killing:

1. Peasant kill.
2. Make use of the conquest minimum 2 acre-gains.

Another thing I would like to see is provinces killed in war only respawn AFTER the war is done. It's retarded that a 15K NW prov on 70 acres can just let himself die off through PK, then restart as a faery/human, ToG for 72 hours and fund a dragon...

Btw, congrats Palem to you 17,000th post :D

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Originally Posted by Bukharistan

Btw, congrats Palem to you 17,000th post :D

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lol right. congrats.

Palem I'm honestly curious as to your acceptance of current state of razing into others wars. Do you feel the mechanic is sound and it is just through abuse that it has become an issue? I ask due to the nature of the war. I honestly would have expected you on side with this one.

because the mechanic is sound. This game involves 230+ outside of the two warring. You have to be diplomatic in this game in all aspects. Razes are a good reminder to mind your play.

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Originally Posted by revivemorrison

Palem I'm honestly curious as to your acceptance of current state of razing into others wars. Do you feel the mechanic is sound and it is just through abuse that it has become an issue? I ask due to the nature of the war. I honestly would have expected you on side with this one.

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Because all those times I was telling Elit he needed to work on his diplo to avoid all of the fallout from his decisions, I wasn't just trying to up my post count.

Diplo is important. If you make enemies and they feel they need to use their time razing into your wars, that's their right to do so. It's unfortunate that our particular razers are just griefing and aren't willing to diplo at all, but c'est la vie. There's no need to overhaul mechanics that have some built-in repercussions because a couple people got mad.

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It's unfortunate that our particular razers are just griefing and aren't willing to diplo at all, but c'est la vie.

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But that was exactly what you did to FREE aswell...


These razes only lead to anger. Games should be fun. Less anger = more fun.

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Originally Posted by Bukharistan

But that was exactly what you did to FREE aswell...

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If that were true wouldn't I still be razing FREE?
I did diplo, we agreed on terms, I resumed playing.

Diplomacy is part of the game, allowing and encouraging diplomacy between players is a lot fun, but when there are mad players hell bent on griefing and refuse diplomacy, having game mechanics that prevent the spread of abuse is still a necessity.

What's stopping a person who was razed oow, from being so upset at being razed, that he or she now goes and create a bunch of random prov and raze into random wars just out of spite to vent his/her frustrations, and thus creating a snowball of a toxic environment for every utopians? You only need one crazy fellow to start it, and spread it to a handful of upset players to kill this game.

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Originally Posted by Madcownivean

\What's stopping a person who was razed oow, from being so upset at being razed, that he or she now goes and create a bunch of random prov and raze into random wars just out of spite to vent his/her frustrations, and thus creating a snowball of a toxic environment for every utopians?

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1. Multi'ing is against the rules
2. IP blocks

It's possible I'm misinterpreting what you're saying though

Palem - I don't multi, but I have easy access to multiple IP addresses and it would be quite easy for me to run a multi province without my being detected. My point simply is that it's being against the rules isn't going to stop a spiteful person from wreaking havoc with it. I think that that's what Madcow is getting at.

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Originally Posted by Gidoza

Palem - I don't multi, but I have easy access to multiple IP addresses and it would be quite easy for me to run a multi province without my being detected. My point simply is that it's being against the rules isn't going to stop a spiteful person from wreaking havoc with it. I think that that's what Madcow is getting at.

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It almost definitely has happened before. How would you possible prevent someone from creating multiple accounts and razing someone if they have access to a bunch of different IPs.

What if someone got mad and had 30 friends help him raze you? These are just parts of utopia.

Yeah, and it is a part disliked by 95% of the server. So if we want to give people a better playing atmosphere, why not fix this?

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Originally Posted by Bukharistan

Yeah, and it is a part disliked by 95% of the server. So if we want to give people a better playing atmosphere, why not fix this?

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95% of Americans hate paying taxes. Clearly should be fixed.
(see the problem?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

If Americans don't pay taxes the entire society will collapse. If we reduce the damage of outside razes it will hurt perhaps 3-4 people every age, while making the game more enjoyable for at least a hundred.

I think slightly overdosed is onto a winner.

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Disable the ability to hit into a war which is not your own for the first 7 days since a prov was created?

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Originally Posted by revivemorrison

Palem I'm honestly curious as to your acceptance of current state of razing into others wars. Do you feel the mechanic is sound and it is just through abuse that it has become an issue? I ask due to the nature of the war. I honestly would have expected you on side with this one.

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Considering Palem is one of the people who have hit into war intentionally this age I think the reason for his acceptance should be obvious.

But I happen to agree with Palem here, wars were never designed to happen in a vacuum completely separated from the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Youlose

Just remove land-razing and make building-razing the default (with no minimum). Deleting land isn't fun.

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I'd much rather have real razes back in war where they belong, deleting land IS fun.

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Originally Posted by Bukharistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

If Americans don't pay taxes the entire society will collapse. If we reduce the damage of outside razes it will hurt perhaps 3-4 people every age, while making the game more enjoyable for at least a hundred.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization

I can link to fallacies too. My point was there are some necessary evils, even if people don't completely agree with them. Leaving razes open does infinitely more good than harm as it allows the game to police itself.

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Originally Posted by Palem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization

I can link to fallacies too. My point was there are some necessary evils, even if people don't completely agree with them. Leaving razes open does infinitely more good than harm as it allows the game to police itself.

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I dunno about infinitely because 99.98% of all this so called "policing" is purely motivated by self interest and/or greed. I've never seen any case that wasn't.

So it capitalism. That doesn't mean it isn't beneficial to the game.

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Originally Posted by Bukharistan

Yeah, and it is a part disliked by 95% of the server. So if we want to give people a better playing atmosphere, why not fix this?

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I am pretty sure less than 95% dislike them. The game has multiple charts and multiple forms of diplomacy. Learn diplomatic resolutions or risk being razed or double hostiles. It is not a ****ing war tournament server your wars... eowcf and hostiles are not exempt from especially if you did something to them and no diplomatic action was taken about it. You learned said lesson 2 ages ago Bart. You diplomacy is in order now isnt it? Took what 1 kingdom to raze into but you learned.

Just a bunch of nonsense. People will still be able to raze into other people's wars, razing a province of 500 acres will still destroy a good portion of acres. The ONLY thing you won't be able to do is to keep making new provinces in random ghetto's and start raze-killing chained provinces. It's a bug/loophole in the game, and in my opinion they should simply block the account of the person doing it. I can't think of any other game that allows/encourages people to behave in such a way.

If I'm a footy hooligan and I intentionally interrupt football matches by kicking injured players to death, I at least get punished. I can't just keep doing it GTA-style, and there is a reason that decent society doesn't work that way. (that was probably another case of false equilvalence, yes so tempting).

If someone used multiple accts (and ran them himself) then that is a different rules violation. And a whole different thing to be complaining about. If there is proof then its ban worthy but you can't go back in time and these things do happen.

But as the original post states along the lines past blood should not spill into wars. Handle your diplo and it wont it is as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Gidoza

I think that that's what Madcow is getting at.

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Yeah, Gidoza rephrased my question perfectly.

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Originally Posted by SlightlyOverdosed

How about:
Disable the ability to hit into a war which is not your own for the first 7 days since a prov was created?

I see no problem with the ability to hit into wars. I believe there is a problem with new prov spamming for that purpose.

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I do not think that really prevents the province spamming. It just means they have anticipate the desire to spam provinces one week earlier.

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Originally Posted by Gidoza

Palem - I don't multi, but I have easy access to multiple IP addresses and it would be quite easy for me to run a multi province without my being detected. My point simply is that it's being against the rules isn't going to stop a spiteful person from wreaking havoc with it. I think that that's what Madcow is getting at.

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Its nowhere near as easy as you think it is.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Its nowhere near as easy as you think it is.

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Could you not just play 1 province from your phone (wifi disabled) and play 1 province from your home computer? Play a third from your work computer if you want!

If you have access to multiple IPs and a way to rdp into the multiple IPs easily seems like it would be hard to detect, i suppose you could delete based on login trends :p

Anywho its certainly enough of a pain that its not as common as it once was. I don't see why you would block them from hitting into war specifically. They can cause justas much trouble hitting you oow if they are going to do the work.

Squee: The option to raze into other people wars makes diplomacy harder as unreasonable people can use it as leverage :/

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Originally Posted by trekdrop

Squee: The option to raze into other people wars makes diplomacy harder as unreasonable people can use it as leverage :/

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Then you squeeze unreasonable people out of the game using the same tactics.

We do already have protection from outside hits in wars, quoting the guide: "-75% Gains and Effectiveness for operations to and from other Kingdoms (this fades in from war start)", and if it actually worked like that I'd say it is sufficient, however, the problem is that raze circumvents these restrictions due to the 15 acre minimum (along with being networth-independent). A province outside the war, can cause more damage than any of the provinces you are actually warring against! This to me seems more like an oversight than an intentional design decision.

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Originally Posted by Youlose

We do already have protection from outside hits in wars, quoting the guide: "-75% Gains and Effectiveness for operations to and from other Kingdoms (this fades in from war start)", and if it actually worked like that I'd say it is sufficient, however, the problem is that raze circumvents these restrictions due to the 15 acre minimum (along with being networth-independent). A province outside the war, can cause more damage than any of the provinces you are actually warring against! This to me seems more like an oversight than an intentional design decision.

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No I think it's been said before that it's an intentional game design and that's why the guide is worded as it is. Raze damage is not defined as gains and therefore not affected, I am usnure how it applies to massacre(which I havn't tried) which should behave the same by that logic. The other reason to use raze is of course that attacktime isn't modified by networth.

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Originally Posted by goodz

Could you not just play 1 province from your phone (wifi disabled) and play 1 province from your home computer? Play a third from your work computer if you want!

If you have access to multiple IPs and a way to rdp into the multiple IPs easily seems like it would be hard to detect, i suppose you could delete based on login trends :p

Anywho its certainly enough of a pain that its not as common as it once was. I don't see why you would block them from hitting into war specifically. They can cause justas much trouble hitting you oow if they are going to do the work.

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If they never ever interacted with other provs or each other we'd find it more difficult, but that never happens.

i feel OOW razes into wars are the equivalent of the audience throwing beerbottles at players in a soccermatch. Its team vs team, not team vs team + annoying trolls

its hard thinking of another group pvp game where outsiders can interfere as part of the design.

I suppose any ill designed system has its people justifying it because it works for them, but really: we've rejected Mehuls fundamentalism regarding trading (really? group pvp without friends?) so why not reject Mehuls design philosophy regarding war interference?

In my opinion, the moment kingdoms started getting deleted for fakewarring, OOW interference (both to and fro) shouldve ceased. No more OOW theft, no more OOW plunders, no more into-war razes. Makes everything fair and clear. Less excuses and accusations. Less nubs getting destroyed because they dont know to avoid war status.

Palem and ilk like this weird web of unspoken rules and regulations where theres a host of potential options but unless youre talkative and knowledgable you wont know which are "faux pas" and which are acceptable. Id like the obvious player consensus (i.e. keep it 1v1) to be codified into the game rules. When the rules are clear for everyone, there might be a lot less QQ and conflict.

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that said, if new provs were prohibited from war interference for a week thatd be a good start. At the very least, it could give nubs (do they still exist?) the opportunity to get socialized into the fact that you shouldnt hit into KDs that have warstatus.

the problem isn't just that outsiders can interfere, but that having outsiders interfere allows razekill while 1vs1 does not, which gives too many advantages to kingdoms that can bring an ally to raze into war.
if razing into war didn't allow for razekills it would be better. it's obnoxious that a kingdom can raze 15x4 or 15x5 acres on defenseless provinces and there's jack **** that can be done about it without resorting to the same lameness. removing mingains when razing into (and out of) war would help matters.
there's nothing wrong with people hitting into war so long as -75% gains is a sufficient deterrent, but something wrong with mechanics which give unfair advantage for doing so.