Removal of KNRG

[Syiss]

Thats an entirely different topic CW. I don't have a problem with some kind of change that would allow kingdoms of virtually even skill levels to determine a victor more clearly. I really can't think of a way to do that though, because theoretically if you are of mostly even skill levels, nobody SHOULD win. That's why we have MP. Your thread about adding additional strategic options for warring kingdoms is the start of a solution, but then if one kingdom is using strategy better than another, obviously their skill levels are not equal.

What I do have a problem with is wars being the primary method of growth in the game. War is not that hard to come by, and some positive changes in post-war recovery would make them even more common as less kingdoms would be sitting around rebuilding all the time. Currently war is about fun, honor, and war wins. War wins and honor already promote strong kingdoms taking advantage of weaker kingdoms to an extent, making war the primary method of growth will compound the issue even more, when we should be looking for ways to discourage strong kingdoms from taking advantage of ghettos and mid level kingdoms.

[Catwalk]

Who says anything about primary method of growth? Currently, reasonably fair wars are NEVER anywhere near a useful method of growing. What's wrong with having fair wars among rival kingdoms occasionally actually boosting your growth if you play smart? That doesn't happen now. And nothing in the above makes warring the primary method of growing.

Are you seriously saying that strong kingdoms will prey on weak ones in order to grow faster so they can keep preying on newbies... no wait they have to be small for that so they land drop... no wait then growing was pointless in the first place... so what are they trying to accomplish? More growth from war is one of the best ways to promote fair competition. It should be strongly promoted.

That said, I do agree with your notion of promoting fair competition. I would like to see more direct competition among kingdoms of even strength rather than a competition about who can bully nubs best.

[Syiss]

I suppose I took it a little too far by saying "primary" but I don't see that much of an issue with growth in wars as it currently stands. You cant have FAIR wars and GROWTH, its a contradiction. Thats not a problem, its a fact, and I don't see anything wrong with it. If you want to fight someone who will challenge you, then you shouldn't expect to gain a lot from the war except the satisfaction of outplaying a worthy opponent (and probably honor).

There is no way to determine exact opponent skill before starting a war. You can look at how many players they have, scout their paper for a while, take CB's and determine how well built the provinces are, but even then you can't be certain. In the end, two kingdoms who both think they have the advantage will go to war, and one will come out ahead, with more acres than before. It happens all the time and it works.

We play at different levels Catwalk, wars between equal opponents are very rare for most of Utopia, not because people are intentionally seeking out one sided wars (though there are those who do), but because for most of Utopia its very difficult to determine a kingdoms ability. In low level and mid level kingdoms you have a lot of fluctuation in activity levels, people are often on vacation, activity drops during nights and weekends, etc.

Are you seriously saying that strong kingdoms will prey on weak ones in order to grow faster so they can keep preying on newbies... no wait they have to be small for that so they land drop... no wait then growing was pointless in the first place... so what are they trying to accomplish?

Uh no. They dont have to drop land, there are a lot of levels of activity and skill in Utopia, top kd's who are aiming for growth could continue to grow quite a lot off less talented kingdoms. Of course at some point this is no longer possible, but we are talking about like 8-10 million nw range here. Until then they could prey on far less talented kingdoms. Currently kingdoms who want to grow do it through exploration and paradise, I don't want to see this changed because I don't want these top kd's running around fighting ghettos and mid level kingdoms because its a faster way to grow.

More growth from war is one of the best ways to promote fair competition. It should be strongly promoted.

I don't really see the correlation here. I suppose it promotes competition overall, but I fail to see how it promotes FAIR competition. [EDIT: I can see how it could promote fair wars because theres an additional benefit of growth in fair wars that doesn't exist right now, but I don't think its really needed and I think in practice it will result in more abuse than anything else] Currently theres no reason to go to war if you want to grow, which means kingdoms aren't going to war for the purpose of growth, which means you don't have a bunch of kingdoms running around looking for weaker targets to sucker into wars because they want to add another million to their networth. If you have a system that will make fair wars more profitable without making one sided wars equally more profitable then I'd like to hear it.


EDIT: I'd like to reword this statement to more closely resemble what I was trying to get across

What I do have a problem with is wars being the primary method of growth in the game.

What I do have a problem with is growth being a primary reason for warring. As I've stated earlier in the thread, growth is a SIDE EFFECT of winning wars, and I think that is how it should be.

[VT2]

If that was removed, I'd go beat up on ghettos completely for growth. Add catty's stupid suggestions on how wars should work, and I'll only beat up the tumors in the ghetto. They'll be my personal farms, despite thinking they're gonna grow so big, they'll end up on the land-chart.

'No' to this, 'no' to catty's stupid war-suggestions, and REJECTED to the both of them.

You're in a minority.
Either stay small, and battle with the server, or grow big, and whine over how there are safeguards blocking your 26 million kingdom from farming ghetto-tumors, and kingdoms only, oh, say, 8 million in networth.

REJECTED, REJECTED, and REJECTED again - all on charges of stupidity, imbecilic whining, and total disregard of the matters you're speaking of.
Now, go cry me a river. I hear Ezzerland's already on it, but there's no reason you can't join in, too.

If our evil overlords, crewing the SS OMAC, with catty in the crow's nest, ever see this, and decide it's a smart idea to listen more to catty and the 'top's' whining, I'm going to quite the game.

[Syiss]

If our evil overlords, crewing the SS OMAC, with catty in the crow's nest, ever see this, and decide it's a smart idea to listen more to catty and the 'top's' whining, I'm going to quite the game.

Now its gonna get implemented for sure :(

[VT2]

Nah, I rack up the ad-fees immensely ;)

[nfidel2k]

I just find it amazing. If you are a larger province, and you can't defend your land against a smaller province, STOP WHINING. They are playing better than you and you deserve it. And bottom feeding is nowhere near under control. Sure you may not grow quickly, but many provinces do use it for growth. You can bottom feed a province for 200 acres and 100 honor by attacking 4 times; while 200 acres might not mean much when you have 3000, to the 1500 acre province you just crushed 4 times in a row that was more than they could get against almost any target they attack. So you just gained a nice bit of land and they are stuck wondering who they pissed off.

[foolseye]

Tell me again, why shouldn't a fat province in a big, growing kd be a good target? The big kd has currently two solutions: they can squash the little annoying bug with multiple retals, thus gaining back the lost land, but at the prize of halting growth, thus putting them behind in the race for the top. OR they can suck it up and keep growing.

At this stage, the provs in fast-growing kds are all fat. Why should they not be good targets? Yes this is something which makes it harder to be in the top, but I find it logical that staying up there actually takes more skill.

[trekdrop]

Everyone knows that Absalom and Covenant kingdoms are afraid of elite warring kingdoms like the Porn Jedi's and use paradise/explore pool to get out of the kingdoms' range.

[WolfDGrey]

Everyone knows that Absalom and Covenant kingdoms are afraid of elite warring kingdoms like the Porn Jedi's and use paradise/explore pool to get out of the kingdoms' range.

True, my kingdom, though not Abs or Cov, is afraid of those Jedis too. It seems they teared the server's confidence apart.

I would have discussed with my kingdom mates about warring them, but some unfortunate circumstances made it so we won't be able to do that this age.

I don't want to tell you the circumstances, and I assure you it has nothing to do with the fact that, they are probably half our size after our current war ends. It's probably our ancestral fear of their mighty leader VTnub.

Maybe we won't be able to do that next age either. And we are so afraid...

[VT2]

Blah, blah, blah - shut up.
I won, and you lost.

I now sentence this thread to death.

[WolfDGrey]

sucker, you can't sentence anything, especially over the internet... LOL

[Thorak]

Bigger kingdoms already have a huge advantage over small kingdoms. If this is changed the smaller kingdoms will be farmed to death.

Now at least you have to fear a retall if you attack into a smaller kingdom. This is a change that will only favour the absolute top and will be bad for almost everyone else.

[rosedragoness]

Isn't it used to be.. these high acres loners whine that they are gangbanged (they call the term: bottomfeeding) by abs or cov or so (to be correct, take turn of getting banged)?

top KD can just hit multiple times to this loner and outgrow him to more than 130% nw range, so he cant gain anything.

[Catwalk]

If that was removed, I'd go beat up on ghettos completely for growth. Add catty's stupid suggestions on how wars should work, and I'll only beat up the tumors in the ghetto. They'll be my personal farms, despite thinking they're gonna grow so big, they'll end up on the land-chart.

You're saying that nothing much will change if these suggestions are added?