Removal of KNRG

[Ishandra]

it wouldnt suprise me if he was one of those players that didnt give a rats about his kd, which would mean he wouldnt care if you smacked/razed his kd mates... those single provs are VERY hard to deal with... also, they are often over 50% of kd nw, so control monarchy by themselves =)

and i think you'll find that the dwarf made 2-3 hits into toadi's kd, and got retalled multiple times

im GUESSING it went something like this:
Toadi's KD hits 6k acre dwarf for 600 acre
Dwarf (now 5400 acres) hits for 1k acres
toadi's kd hits for 400, 300, 200, 200
dwarf (now 5300 acres) hits for 1k acres
toadi's kd hits for 200, 100, 100, 100, 100
dwarf (now 5700 acres) hits for 1k acres

Toadi's kd gives up and attempts to get a CF as they are loosing land

This sounds plausible, but while the Dwarf is taking casualties from 3-5 hits/attacks a day, each DE is only taking casualties from 1. The DEs should also be opping considerably more than the DW, even if they are Dicing/ToGing up still. I'm sure Toadi was in a good KD if they were aiming for #1 spot but I dont think they played the situation very well.



EDIT: Last post in this thread as its time to play WW then sleep~

[WolfDGrey]

This sounds plausible, but while the Dwarf is taking casualties from 3-5 hits/attacks a day, each DE is only taking casualties from 1...

I stopped reading here. You don't understand gangbang protection either... pffff

[_greenie]

I stopped reading here. You don't understand gangbang protection either... pffff

i will be nice an attempt to explain this...

in the following exchange of hits:

dwarf (now 5300 acres) hits for 1k acres
toadi's kd hits for 200, 100, 100, 100, 100

on the dwarf's hit, he will loose standard losses on offense, as will his target

when toadi's kd hits for those measley acres, they will loose standard losses on attacks (so ~7% no hosps) whilst the dwarf will likely loose ~2% with no hosps so in affect, they need 3-4 hits to do the same damage to dwarf as they originally needed without GBP, whilst at the same time, they loose 7% of their army on each hit

[nfidel2k]

This does not work like this. For example, a couple ages ago, my Kingdom (Dark Elves) was whoring for #1 NW. At some point in the age, while we were around 6K acres, one of my guys hit a large Dwarf in a ghetto for around 600 acres. They were about same NW, same size. The Dwarf retaled for 1000 because of KNRG. We hit the Dwarf another time, for 400 this time, because of GB protection. Of course the Dwarf hit again, someone else, for 1000 acres again. We retaled for 300, 200, 200 and 100, still because of GB protection. At that point Dwarf is Extremely hit, loses no land and no troops on attacks, while still grabbing 1000 acres whenever he hits us. This situation explains exactly why big provinces in ghettoes already have an edge over large kingdoms, without needing KNRG on top of this.

So one of your KDmates bottomfed a ghetto and is upset because the guy retaled? Then the rest of your entire KD tried to get involved and you still couldn't handle one large province in a ghetto? No wonder you people push to get rid of KRNG. Here's how you take care of the situation:

1. Replace the moron who bottomfed the ghetto as he was putting the KD at risk.
2. Ignore his cries for help as the other guy destroys him.
3. If you DO choose to help, have the moron who started this mess ambush while you and the rest of your KD chain him. If it's serious enough, get your t/ms involved. If you were really good you would gap your attacks to minimize the GB protection rather than blitz chain.
4. Replace the moron a second time just to be sure.

Or we could remove KRNG because people who believe they're in a top KD piss off and don't know how to handle ghetto superstars.

[_greenie]

So one of your KDmates bottomfed a ghetto and is upset because the guy retaled? Then the rest of your entire KD tried to get involved and you still couldn't handle one large province in a ghetto? No wonder you people push to get rid of KRNG. Here's how you take care of the situation:

1. Replace the moron who bottomfed the ghetto as he was putting the KD at risk.
2. Ignore his cries for help as the other guy destroys him.
3. If you DO choose to help, have the moron who started this mess ambush while you and the rest of your KD chain him. If it's serious enough, get your t/ms involved. If you were really good you would gap your attacks to minimize the GB protection rather than blitz chain.
4. Replace the moron a second time just to be sure.

Or we could remove KRNG because people who believe they're in a top KD piss off and don't know how to handle ghetto superstars.

1) wow, i love how you IMMEDIATELY assume someone was bottomfeeding
2) thats not what top kd's are about, why ignore your kd mates, thus harming your kd?
3) i dont get this one...
4) it happens =)

and i take it you have never been in this situation? else you would understand just how hard it is to deal with =)
we had someone do a 40% topfeed on one of our provs recently, he was a 90% hit for me, in a kd ~25% our size
he gained 10% more acres from his hit than i did on my retal...
he was "hit a little recently" so it means i got 10% less gains, so his 140% hit was the same as my hit on someone 90% my nw...

[nfidel2k]

1) wow, i love how you IMMEDIATELY assume someone was bottomfeeding

News Flash: Hitting a province that if retals is accused of topfeeding would mean the original attack was bottomfeeding. Or did I miss where you explained that the target was picked because he could retal and put up a decent fight? Your post does state that your KDmate hit first.

2) thats not what top kd's are about, why ignore your kd mates, thus harming your kd?

That is what TEAMWORK is about. If one of the members of the team doesn't contribute, or does something that hurts the team, you either train them or replace them. You've never heard the phrase "Cut your losses" before?

3) i dont get this one...

The gains difference would have been reduced or possibly even in your favor if the moron who bottomfed the ghetto ambushed instead of sending another march. That way you and your KDmates get the land from the ghetto superstar (4 attacks) and the moron gets back a portion of the land he lost, cutting the GS' gains.

and i take it you have never been in this situation? else you would understand just how hard it is to deal with =)
we had someone do a 40% topfeed on one of our provs recently, he was a 90% hit for me, in a kd ~25% our size
he gained 10% more acres from his hit than i did on my retal...
he was "hit a little recently" so it means i got 10% less gains, so his 140% hit was the same as my hit on someone 90% my nw...

No, I haven't been in this situation. My teammates and I don't go for #1 on the unimportant charts like land and NW. Explorers can have those. Not to mention my teammates are smarter than to pick on ghetto superstars. We also finish what we start or we don't start it.

I still fail to see why KRNG, which protects smaller KDs from being targetted by bullies, should be removed because of this. All you've shown so far is the EXACT REASON it was implemented to begin with.

[WolfDGrey]

News Flash: Hitting a province that if retals is accused of topfeeding would mean the original attack was bottomfeeding.

News Flash #2:
6k acres prov hitting 6k acres prov taking 600 acres: not bottomfeed.
5.4 acres prov retaling 6k acres prov: topfeed.

No, I haven't been in this situation. My teammates and I don't go for #1 on the unimportant charts like land and NW. Explorers can have those.

Wrong. Explorers can't have those. There is not enough land in the explore pool. And that's why top kingdom's players are usually the most skillfull. They need to empty explore pool, attack for gains and paradice to maximise growth. While others have 1 task to do, a.k.a. attacking or whatever, they will do 3 things. And exploring at that size involves absolutely termendous amounts of gold. Also building your acres and troop losses cost signficant amounts.

I still fail to see why KRNG, which protects smaller KDs from being targetted by bullies, should be removed because of this. All you've shown so far is the EXACT REASON it was implemented to begin with.

Nope, it should not be removed. It should be fixed so the effects work on both ends, not cutting gains only from top to bottom, but in the other way too.
Do you think that it's normal that one province can hold up against many, just because he is in a smaller kingdom?

Don't tell me that ALL big loners in small kingdoms are more skillfull than ANY player in the bigger kingdoms... because, ATM, looking at the things from outside that would appear for the neutral watcher.

Small kingdoms need protection. True. But the protection has to go to the limit where the small ones are protected, not more, without giving them incentives to blindly hit into any kingdom wich is bigger... and if much bigger, the better.

[_greenie]

News Flash: Hitting a province that if retals is accused of topfeeding would mean the original attack was bottomfeeding. Or did I miss where you explained that the target was picked because he could retal and put up a decent fight? Your post does state that your KDmate hit first.

my post never said anything like that
and it was toadi talking about his kd, not me about mine...
also, toadi NEVER said there was any top feeding or bottom feeding involved, neither did i
for all you know it could have been a 6k acre DE hitting a 6k acre dwarf

News Flash #2:
6k acres prov hitting 6k acres prov taking 600 acres: not bottomfeed.
5.4 acres prov retaling 6k acres prov: topfeed.

i disagree
firstly, a 6k acre dwarf would probably have a higher nw/a than a DE

but more importantly, as gains are nw based, acres arent the best way to judge top/bottom feeding
also, if they were similar nw, a 10% acre hit will likely only drop someone's nw by ~6-7% whilst usually dropping the attacker's nw by ~2%

so if you have 2x 100k nw provs hitting each other, the attacker ends up ~98k nw, whilst the defender ends up ~94-93k nw (rough estimate) so often times the retal is in a perfectly hit range

and lastly, i dont see hitting someone 10% bigger than you as much of a topfeed, to me 110-85% of my size is reasonable hitting range (any more than 110% makes me a bit concerned about how much def you are leaving at home)

The gains difference would have been reduced or possibly even in your favor if the moron who bottomfed the ghetto ambushed instead of sending another march. That way you and your KDmates get the land from the ghetto superstar (4 attacks) and the moron gets back a portion of the land he lost, cutting the GS' gains.

once again you make assumptions
a) that it was a bottom feed
b) that the dwarf has/had GS, with KRNG you often dont need GS
and based on the information toadi provided, i seriously doubt he had GS =)

No, I haven't been in this situation. My teammates and I don't go for #1 on the unimportant charts like land and NW. Explorers can have those. Not to mention my teammates are smarter than to pick on ghetto superstars. We also finish what we start or we don't start it.

I still fail to see why KRNG, which protects smaller KDs from being targetted by bullies, should be removed because of this. All you've shown so far is the EXACT REASON it was implemented to begin with.

ironically, my kd is top5, pretty much everyone makes at least 3 hits/48 hours
and it sounds like your kd never gets big enough to mess with these "ghetto superstars"

[Ishandra]

If KNRG reduced gains on significantly larger KDs, as suggested, surely KDs would hit into smaller KDs more readily, because they would not fear retals?

Why hit into a similar sized KD where their KD mates can retal you, rather than a smaller KD where only 1 can?

Protection on both ends works for provinces because it is 1 v 1. KNRG cannot work the same because it is protecting people from 1 v 25 in the majority of cases.

If it needs changing, the best way would be so it has no effect until you reach +/- 20% KD NW difference, then has a steep curve of effect. This will of course though, lead to people warring smaller KDs for an easy advantage. Smaller KDs will see this and not want to war, so will decline, feel bottomfed on and subsqeuently bottomfeed another KD in the hopes to get into a war they can win.

This is the only point of discussion left. Obviously removing it completely is out of the question and rightly so. In my opinion any changes will only be detrimental.


(I'm not getting back into the pointless arguing, but I said 3-5 attacks worth of casualties, not 3-5 X normal casualites. With GB protection that is still 1+0.8+0.6+0.4+0.2=3 X normal casualties. I know how it works. It also does not protect from NS/MS/Kidnap from those 3-5 Provinces)

[nfidel2k]

my post never said anything like that
and it was toadi talking about his kd, not me about mine...
also, toadi NEVER said there was any top feeding or bottom feeding involved, neither did i
for all you know it could have been a 6k acre DE hitting a 6k acre dwarf

You're right, it was toadi that said that. My mistake. In terms of KRNG, toadi's KD bottomfed by attacking a ghetto. Or was the ghetto #2 on the NW chart?

And greenie, I am not making assumptions. If the guy that originally hit and then got retaled ambushes the dwarf's attack, you cut his gains. The rest of your kd can march all they want. But personally I would have let the moron work it out on his own than let one dwarf own my entire KD. Cut your losses.

Nope, it should not be removed. It should be fixed so the effects work on both ends, not cutting gains only from top to bottom, but in the other way too.
Do you think that it's normal that one province can hold up against many, just because he is in a smaller kingdom?

Don't tell me that ALL big loners in small kingdoms are more skillfull than ANY player in the bigger kingdoms... because, ATM, looking at the things from outside that would appear for the neutral watcher.

Small kingdoms need protection. True. But the protection has to go to the limit where the small ones are protected, not more, without giving them incentives to blindly hit into any kingdom wich is bigger... and if much bigger, the better.

Right. So how would cutting gains on both ends help? The bigger KD would go on bullying large provinces in ghettoes with no fear of retribution. And if the ghetto superstar happens to be the aggressor, then he is playing more skillfully by developing and using his strat. Why should the gains be evened out so that top KDs don't have to worry anymore? It's not like the majority, or even a significant minority play to topfeed the top KDs. But KRNG does protect the vast majority from the top KDs, and any KD who gets significantly larger.

[WolfDGrey]

I know how it works. It also does not protect from NS/MS/Kidnap from those 3-5 Provinces)

Please, oh, Mighty Demigod Ishandra, our Immense Knowledge, your Superior Understanding, as YOU KNOW HOW IT WORKS, but we worthless mortals beg you on our knees, PLEASE READ THE GUIDE, then come back and tell the mere mortals what is the name of relation when NS and MS can happen, also how many attacks needed in normal stance every day to achieve that.

We need to know when we can NS and MS that loner down, because, oh, Light of Our Lives, All-Knowing-Strategist Ishandra, we were waiting and waiting and we couldn't force our foul wizards to call the rocks from the skies, neither our no-good spies to leave our lands for murder anybody inside the enemy's walls.

[WolfDGrey]

And if the ghetto superstar happens to be the aggressor, then he is playing more skillfully by developing and using his strat. Why should the gains be evened out so that top KDs don't have to worry anymore?

When I heared last time that it's a team game? When was the last time I saw rants about stagnation and turtling? Oh, I forgot, you praise "DEFENSIVE SKILLS"...

[Ishandra]

Please, oh, Mighty Demigod Ishandra, our Immense Knowledge, your Superior Understanding, as YOU KNOW HOW IT WORKS, but we worthless mortals beg you on our knees, PLEASE READ THE GUIDE, then come back and tell the mere mortals what is the name of relation when NS and MS can happen, also how many attacks needed in normal stance every day to achieve that.

We need to know when we can NS and MS that loner down, because, oh, Light of Our Lives, All-Knowing-Strategist Ishandra, we were waiting and waiting and we couldn't force our foul wizards to call the rocks from the skies, neither our no-good spies to leave our lands for murder anybody inside the enemy's walls.

Wolf, if you think a DW that is apparently making such amazing gains hitting in this larger KD is going to stop making 2 hits a day before unfriendly and then hostile is reached, then you've already shown that KNRG 'abuse' limits itself without any changes.

And with these 'amazing gains', I severaly doubt his wpa/tpa will keep up until unfriendly is reached, let alone hostile. Especially since, as you predict, the larger KD will only retal with 1 of their provinces, fearing giving him GBP before their prov can try and reclaim his acres!



EDIT: It's also nice to see you've glazed over all my points that are valid to the discussion (casualties, kidnapping, KD co-ordination), in order to continue a personal arguement. Well done Wolf, seriously you are a credit to the boards.

[VT2]

Psst, for a demonstration of why big people shouldn't mess with smaller people, take my CE.

[WolfDGrey]

making 2 hits a day before unfriendly and then hostile is reached

You're really knowledgeble, my Demigod, please forgive my worthless soul, as I thought that from 2 hits a day in normal stance you won't get UF, and if only one province does single taps you will never reach hostile for the simple fact that at day change, relations decay with about an aproximate of 7-8 hits...

But, I was wrong oh, your Highness, you Strategist, you Genious, and I must beg for the uber-gods of OMAC to make the game as you know it is... I would love to put 25 provinces to do nasty ops on one guy...

I have to ask you, my Lord, my Light to forgive my boldness and that I, with my everlasting noobness, was trying to correct your brilliant arguments over the course of this thread...