An honest discussion about the use of Homes

[gojete]

1.-I do have unlimited money

2.-i also said that i want to try make 1000 acres 100% homes, i cant because im spending all my free time with constant war planning, searching of targets and warring kingdoms all the time. giving out targets, getting soms for my attackers, cursing the enemy in messages,and all those things one does in game.
Im responsable for 17 other provinces than me ,that are active and want to have fun, saddly i cant give them what they want which is a war because all kds of our size get destroyed before we hit war state. Just now were hitting 2 kds at the same time, and we will hit a 3rd, we have to fight 3 kds at the same time to have a kick.

I just keep sending dragon after dragon after dragon.


I dont mean to be annoying ill just stop posting in this thread alltogether if its so hurtful for you to hear that you are not as good as you thought being playing this game for years.

I have no hard feelings for you my ppl, again i understand what you are going through and hope you get over it fast. We are all friends here even if we fight now and then. See you soon when things calm down, ive got some massacres to do

[Palem]

If you have unlimited money, then you're hacking the game.

Even if you have 10 trillion gcs, you've got limited money.
Either stop lying, or stop exaggerating.

[DHaran]

Even trolling the troll is feeding him, so I'm just going to ignore him unless I see some poor nub buying his crap. You guys should do the same.

[Zalustra]

"An add to Luc any that's gone against my proince in war chances their view that homes our pointless in war. You just never went up against my province other wise you wouldn't be bad-mouthing homes. "

OMG it's been like 2 years and you're STILL going at this?!? Wow... well not going to feed the trolls any further but I'm impressed by how long some people in here managed to keep going on the same old tune over and over and over again...

[otokonoko]

I am teaching some nubs in a ghetto I am in and they are wondering about what is a good ammount of homes to have. It is a personal preference. They were suggesting % like 40-80% like some people in the forums suggested. Had to say that anyone using % that high would be using a vines strat, and following someone who doesnt even know the difference between percentages and decimals, even then they made maths equations that didnt make sense.

That 100% home idea is so funny, even vines had the sense to have some farms so his peasants didnt starve almost instantly to atleast try and add some credibility. Income will be so small, and you would be lucky to pay your troops at 100% wages at 60% draft.

[Kayani]

It's so stupid. A province with 0 homes and 0 science will run 25 people per acre. Even if you ran 100% homes, you would only gain 8 people per acre. It's not like it's an insane amount. Although ... you should remember that even unemployed peasants make .75 gc per hour. Here's a quick look:

0% Homes
25 People Per Acre
60% Draft - 15 Army Per Acre, 10 Peasants Per Acre
Military Wages: 7.5 gc per Acre
Income: 22.5 gc per Acre

100% Homes
33 People Per Acre
60% Draft - 19.8 Army Per Acre, 13.2 Peasants Per Acre
Military Wages: 9.9 gc per Acre
Income: 9.9 gc per Acre

Strangely ... at 100% homes and 60% draft, your peasants will make exactly enough money to pay your military wages :) (Assuming 0 wizzies)


The big thing people claim (I guess) is that you can shove so many more people on your province. And that doesn't stand up either.

Let's assume gnome.

100% Homes
33 People Per Acre
60% Draft - 19.8 Army Per Acre, 13.2 Peasants Per Acre
For argument's sake, we'll make all 19.8 army into elites
19.8 Elites per acre = 99 DPA / 99 OPA


0% Homes
25 People Per Acre
60% Draft - 15 Army Per Acre, 10 Peasants Per Acre
For argument's sake, we'll make all 15 army into elites.
15 Elites per acre = 75 DPA / 75 OPA
31% Training Grounds, 31% Forts gives 99.08 DPA / 99.08 OPA

So, if you wanna match the military strength of 100% homes, build 31% TGs and 31% Forts, and then you'll have a sustainable economy, and 38% left to build farms, guilds, towers, and whatever else you want.

[ittlecas]

I took a few days to redo my excel sheet. And I just now got back to reading this forum again. There wasnt a lot of important posts but I did want to add my new info and respond to a few posts:

ittlecas - Shortest rebuttal ever: NW

Everyone keeps focusing on OPA and DPA, but those are "fake" values when it comes to gains - the people your "size" are the same NW, not the same land. So you need to compare DPNW, not DPA.

I had problems calculating DPNW since every player runs a different def/off ratio (or if you want to use thieves and mages instead of armies) and different races have different values so I tried something different which I will call ATMPkNW (Attackers,Thieves and Mages Per 1k NetWorth - it doesnt matter if your talking defensive unites, offensive units, elites, mages or thieves). I'll post a quick table if I can here as to how income, NW, homes, and armies stack up according to my new numbers. (example prov has 1k acres):

~NW.....~ATMPkNW...gc.............ATMs.......Homes......~NW.....~ATMPkNW...gc...........ATMs[/U][/B]
96000........0.00.........56250........0.............at 0%.......129578......63.67........37688.....8250
110231......29.94.......50625........3300........at 10%......140451......76.36.......33919 .....10725
124462......53.03.......45000........6600........at 20%......151324......87.23.......30150.....13200
138693......71.38.......39375........9900........at 30%......167183.....101.09......26381.....16900
152924......86.32.......33750........13200......at 40%......173071......104.87.....22613.....18150
195617......118.09......16875.......23100......at 70%......205690......124.34.....11306......25575

To the left of the homes%, you have the numbers if you want Max income (not including banks or sci) and to the right of the homes% you get the numbers if you want max ATMs WITHOUT affecting BE. What I'm seeing with the table is that as you increase homes OR draft, you lose income just that raising homes do not affect BE also. But as I increase homes I also get better ATMPkNW. What I'm realizing now is that the % of homes you want to run will depend on the income you need to sustain growth and the draft % you want. But in short, homes are also good for your DPNW. However, I'm still working on the other part dealing with keeping income constant and changing homes for banks. Mostly because I wasnt trying to keep income constant :)

Next:

The big thing people claim (I guess) is that you can shove so many more people on your province. And that doesn't stand up either.

You right that it doesnt stand up because its not the point. The extra pezzies are nice, as is the BR, but not the reason at all for the benifit of homes. The advantage is in built acres without more jobs. Let me put it in a simple example. If you have 0 homes and 50% of your population is drafted, you have aprox 50% of your jobs that are not producing gc and worse yet, its dropping your BE so that all your buildings are only doing half their potential. Thus, no extra income for more jobs and worse performace. Ideal is to have the same number of workers as you have jobs to get max income and not affect your BE. As you increase draft, you also need to reduce your jobs and NO MATTER HOW YOU BUILD, more draft will mean less income.

31% Training Grounds, 31% Forts gives 99.08 DPA / 99.08 OPA
So, if you wanna match the military strength of 100% homes, build 31% TGs and 31% Forts, and then you'll have a sustainable economy, and 38% left to build farms, guilds, towers, and whatever else you want.

100% homes is unsustainable but if it were, your compairison is still off. The problem with your 31% TGs and 31% Forts (without homes) is that you've now affected your BE. Rough calc at 60% draft says your BE is now at 59.7% and, even if you build 50% TGs and 50% forts, you'll only get +22.5% bonus to off/def (not the +32% that you're calculating nor the 31% TGs that your using).

[Dragons Mate]

Rough calc at 60% draft says your BE is now at 59.7% and

Show the calculations behind that one!!

I ran 65% draft last age, only 2% BE Sci, no pop sci (started very near EOA) and I had a BE of upper 70's with no homes! I'm not sure where you got that BE, but it's completely off!

Reminder: You only need to fill like 2/3 of the jobs to have 100% BE. I'm not sure the exact percent, and I'm too lazy to look it up

[Bishop]

Reminder: You only need to fill like 2/3 of the jobs to have 100% BE. I'm not sure the exact percent, and I'm too lazy to look it up

each peasant performs 1.5 jobs for the purposes of calcing BE - so yes, filling 2/3rd of jobs = 100% BE

[gojete]

My people that play in a ghetto and are very bored, if you are reading this, this people to claim to be pros that have been playing the game for 10 years have been playing the same boring way for ages. There is more than 1 way to play the game. Ima show you a different one.

I had a lot of free time so i decieded to start playing utopia again, and so i read the formula and found a completely different game. most people here will tell you the same strat they have been using forever I give you an alternative if you like living in your toes.

Since i had a lot of free time i could do an
Avian warrior 30% barracks 70% homes

I did several plunders a day, with the speed changes i could attack plunders every 5.8 hours similar targets networth difference not bigger than 10% .

I had 200% wages , active science research, accelerated training of elites def specs and theives at all times, minimun of 8 mod tpa to steal what i didnt get from plunders, but i really never got good at stealing and lost too many thieves so then i switched to

20% barracks 20% thieves dens 60% homes

IT worked but i then realized that guilds would be a nice addition since after 180 plunders i had hundreds of thousands of runes.

so it evolved to 20% barracks 20% thives dens 50% homes

I never had any problem feeding my people without farms and not only that but i had between 200,000 to 2 millions bushels. Gold, runes everything.

This strat is possible under 1000 acres, because i havent tried growing more, i did want to but my drinking a weekend resulted in me not being able to scan and plunder steal, and what happened is that half my pop and army were lost, and the world chained me and i lost 400 acres.

Already proven that the high homes strat was viable, but with less time to play, i could no longer try the 100% homes that i so much wanted.

So i went for a more conventioinal build 10% homes only, i right now have enough farms to cover for my decay, armouries , thieves dens and i am even building 8% banks, i am going to switch my thieves dens into hospitals. my draft is of 8% peasant population, and im paying 200% wages but lose 3,000 gc per hour.

I am in war now, and it is harder to pay for the double wages, i refuse to play like everyone else because i consider your ways decadent and old fashioned.

And thus right now i ahve 20% dungeons and building 8.2% more, ima do massacre after massacre after massacre in order to fill them up and train some more thieves so that no funny guy goes and releases my prisioners.
I am of course not runnign any science research anymore , not have the money to train armies and so on, war is harder than no war,

Eitherway, i will try to have a 100% dungeons fully filled strat. Im doing massacres every 5 hours so by monday we will see what happened

[gojete]

Apart from the building strats i also did an all elite army no def specs 14 tpa, at some point i had my tpa at 24 and my opa was of 100 army out with no def specs 0 defense, but no one got my intel so i got away with it forever. I then grew more acres that lowered the tpa and trained my def spcs too , still had a lot of thieves so my army got little, oh yeah i was running 110% build efficency all times too. the most balanced thing i had was 50 dpa , 80 opa and 8 tpa but as i grew larger the plunder targets became fewer and fewer and i could no longer afford to do accelerated training of army or thieves, i was lucky to get enough money for normal trining with inspire army.

Ive tried too many things, i guess it depends what you play for, i couldnt play the same way age after age after age just like i couldnt drink the same beer for my whole life or work at the same place or things like that, if you are not a boring person that does the same thing day after day go try .

I know there are persons who dont log in for 2 days because they cant stand waiting for money to come, dudes wake up, plunder and steal, forget living out of income its just stupid

[gojete]

one more thing until i come back on monday and set you all straight again.

At 100% homes you do not run 60% draft , you run 95% draft, the soldiers are impossible to draft by yourself, so you rely on giving gold you steal and plunder in exchange of soldiers.

The whole point for me , to have a high home strat, is so that you can draft as many soldiers as possible, its no use to keep 65% draft like conventional strats.and you dont live out of income ever either.

When i ran homes from 40 to 80% i always kept enough peasants to cover the workers needed for max efficiency, i didnt know yet that 80% is more efficient than 110% , or apparently its what everyone says.

Either way this are the main points in a high home strat , (Imo)
1. to have as many drafted soldiers as possible, 95% preferably
2. to have at least 8 mod tpa, 50 dpa and as much opa as possible to easily steal.
Playing like this is like playing another game altogheter.That is why you cant evaluate a strat like this with conventional thinking, it just wont make sense.

again = 1000 acres = 35,000 pop, or 38,000 with sciences. = 10000 archers 50 raw dpa, if 5,000 thieves 5 tpa plus science 1.5 = 7.5 tpa thats 15,000 soldiers, and you have 20,000 to 23,000 elites for a mod off of if avian 23,000 avian elites 4 generals double wages =217206 mod offense = mod 217 opa, 50 raw tpa, 7.5 mod tpa. beat those numbers with any other strat.
or if no def specs 33,000 drakes 4 generals double wages =311644 mod offense 311 mod opa 132,000 defense when army home.
Or you could run 10,000 thieves for 15 tpa and all elites, so that no one gets your info and retals on you. I got a dark get my intel even when i had 20 tpa and he had only 8,. so high tpa is by no means a replacement for def specs


Some guy is going to be away for several weeks and i might just pay the tokens so that he sits instead of going to vacations and i will try and do the 1000 acres 100% homes, the problem is not making it, because it will not take more than 1 week , its worth it to see if a province like that can survive by itself or is it a kingdom effort?

[Bishop]

At 100% homes you do not run 60% draft , you run 95% draft, the soldiers are impossible to draft by yourself, so you rely on giving gold you steal and plunder in exchange of soldiers.

lolwut? you'd peasant kill yourself in about 24 hours.

[otokonoko]

thought I heard silly arguements, and you are trying to argue a theory. Fine to practice them OOW and in ghettos but you will have no chance in organised kingdoms and wars. You could build up 2mil bushels in plunders but have that stolen in war first thing and vermin cast and you will be starving very quickly.

2. with the kinds of builds you are suggesting and the so called sciences you will have, you will be just flat out tasty for a bird of prey like myself that likes to hit people like you. I prefer to attack provences that are to high or 2 low in n/w they tend to be the most juicy for different reasons.

say you did have 99opa, but it means nothing if it equates to being only 33opnw.

so the numbers you say for 1000 acres
and your mod ppa is 38
you use 33elites per acres
homes would be 55000nw
pessies would be 5000nw
elites would be 214500nw

total n/w = 274500
Total Offence = 264000 (264opa, .96opnw)
Total Defence = 99000 (99dpa, .36dpnw all elites home)

Running 274.5nwpa not including sciences

Your running an economy that is very very brittle and couldnt handle being in a war for very long, if at all.


Most people base there builds about being in war, not for an oow ghetto and require a high level of activity to maintain let alone try and build it up.

[Dragons Mate]

Post an SoT gojete and we'll believe you. I didn't even bother reading your posts!